Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Local Temptress

tchia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
22
The saga continues on my ring purchase. So I had previously made a commitment on a 1ct H SI1 medium flor BGD Blue stone that I was perfectly happy with. While I was waiting on the custom setting pricing from BGD, I went to a local outfit with a good reputation to do some additional studying on setting designs. Lo and behold, the consultant at the store started asking questions about my stone. As soon as she heard the word florescence, she pounced. The long of the short is she proceeded to show me 3 stones and asked me what I though. The stone that I though was less spectacular was...the one with florescence. It looked hazy. She claimed that it was a faint blue H SI1 with a AGS0 grade. I really should've asked her to show me the cert, because it was against everything that I had found in my research. A faint blue stone should not have been as hazy and as relatively dull as it was.

She also showed me a 1ct G SI1 No flor AGS0 that looked very nice, but for some reason didn't have quite the fire and brilliance that another J stone she had next to it. However, it did appear eyeclean to me. She offered the G for $6,250 which on paper is an awesome price. She also offered an H SI AGS0 with no flor for $5,900, which is what I paid for the Blue.

The specs on the G:
table 56
depth 61.7
pav 43.6
crown 14.8
girdle 1.4-2
HCA 2.4 VG, VG, VG, EX

Bottom line: She hammered stones with florescence creating a little bit of doubt in my BGD Blue purchase. Secondly, the specs on the G without flor is really tempting for the price. Even the H with no flor for the same price is a little intriguing. Finally, one thing that I realized is that the color between a G and a J wasn't all that big if the J was cut to perfection.

What do you guys think?
 

TakingthePlunge

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
94
She saw a potential sale and worked it. Id stick with the BGD. BGD has a great rep around here and they can be trusted. If you have doubts call them up and ask about haze.
 

thbmok

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
891
If you are in doubt just have BGD ship the stone to you first to compare it against all the stones they have in the store.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
Bleck, your story leaves a bad taste in my mouth :knockout: . I really hate those types of sales tactics where they try to scare you and, frankly, mislead you. I can't say why the H stone looked crummy to you because faint flour should not affect optics. I am guessing it was dirty or else poorly cut and is not as represented in the cert.

My advice: Have the BGD blue sent to you loose *now* to allay your fears. If you don't like it, proceed with the local. But I am better it will blow you away.

BGD would not sell a hazy stone with an upgrade policy, btw. I think the vendor you met was fear mongering.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
As a note, if the G did not look as nice as the J, then it is not as well cut (the HCA implies this is possible with the score over 2). The diamonds she showed you are also not branded H&As (right?). If you want to save money, you can of course get an ideally proportioned non H&A stone and perhaps save some too. But either way, if you opt to go with her, then get a stone that sparkles like mad *and* is priced like you want and the color you want.
 

Gibson486

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
91
In Boston, most of the jewelers are not pushy at all. However, 1 thing that does suck is that lots of them do not have a good return policy. It's only credit back, not cash.

However, I have found 1 common thing among jewelers everywhere....

if you go to them and tell them what you want, the sale tactics stop. However, if you just go there and act like "Oh, well, I am searching for a .9 ct round diamond" and stop there, they will try to sell you the world.
 

tchia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
22
I also thought about having the stone shipped to me for inspection to compare before I completed the purchase with the custom setting. The shipping is about $130 both ways and even though it's not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things, but I'd hate to spend more money needlessly. Ideally, I would fly down to Houston to look at it in person, but the flight is over $300...haha.

None of the local gal's stones shown to me were H&A. But I did see the AGS cert for the G and the J stones which confirmed AGS0.

My gut says to just stay with Brian, simply because of the reputation and what the good folks in this forum have chimed in with. Part of me wish I had never made the trip to the local joint.
 

Lula

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
4,540
Dreamer_D|1304090252|2907947 said:
Bleck, your story leaves a bad taste in my mouth :knockout: . I really hate those types of sales tactics where they try to scare you and, frankly, mislead you. I can't say why the H stone looked crummy to you because faint flour should not affect optics. I am guessing it was dirty or else poorly cut and is not as represented in the cert.

My advice: Have the BGD blue sent to you loose *now* to allay your fears. If you don't like it, proceed with the local. But I am better it will blow you away.

BGD would not sell a hazy stone with an upgrade policy, btw. I think the vendor you met was fear mongering.
Ditto everything Dreamer says in this post -- take the BGD stone in loose and compare it to what she's offering you. I don't believe BGD would risk their reputation by selling you a hazy stone, but don't take our word for it -- let your eyes make the decision. The cost of shipping the stone loose and then shipping it back for setting is well worth your peace of mind.
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
Lula|1304091603|2907973 said:
Dreamer_D|1304090252|2907947 said:
Bleck, your story leaves a bad taste in my mouth :knockout: . I really hate those types of sales tactics where they try to scare you and, frankly, mislead you. I can't say why the H stone looked crummy to you because faint flour should not affect optics. I am guessing it was dirty or else poorly cut and is not as represented in the cert.

My advice: Have the BGD blue sent to you loose *now* to allay your fears. If you don't like it, proceed with the local. But I am better it will blow you away.

BGD would not sell a hazy stone with an upgrade policy, btw. I think the vendor you met was fear mongering.
Ditto everything Dreamer says in this post -- take the BGD stone in loose and compare it to what she's offering you. I don't believe BGD would risk their reputation by selling you a hazy stone, but don't take our word for it -- let your eyes make the decision. The cost of shipping the stone loose and then shipping it back for setting is well worth your peace of mind.
TOTALLY agree.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,631
I wouldn't deal with her because I believe she deliberately misled you. There's no way Brian Gavin is selling cloudy fluorescent stones. His reputation is too important to him and there is a lot of potential for negative advertising here if he was selling bad stones.
The thing people need to remember is to NEVER tell the B&M store that you have ordered a stone online, period. They will find some way to attack it especially if they think you still have time to return it. That is one reason I recommend buying the setting from the diamond vendor so as to avoid this problem.

Just FYI, I had a stone with med blue fl. for over 25 years and didn't even know it until I was considering a reset into a 3 stone setting and the jeweler looking at my diamond held it under a lamp with uv and told me that it had fluorescence. So she either showed you a stone with extreme fluro or a stone that was not well cut, or both. And I wouldn't set foot back in that store even with Brian's stone in hand.
 

thbmok

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
891
Based on the information given I don't think it's fair to say that the consultant is trying to be deliberately misleading. It's possible that she's just giving the best advice she can based on what she has seen.

I think the real issue here is that there are possible alternatives at the store at a similar price point that may look better to you. The cost of shipping is a small price to pay to ensure that you are getting the stone that you are happy with.
 

tchia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
22
Part of me does feel like there was some deception and fast talking involved, which I anticipated. It was kind of like a poker game, a stare down, or a dance. Action and reaction. Like thbmok said, the reason I would still consider working with her is the possibility of getting a superior stone for similar money or possibly less, but that possibility cannot not be realized unless I have Brian's stone in hand to compare it to. I'm actually less concerned about Brian's stone and am fairly confident that it will come as advertised. I probably need to just suck it up and get the stone shipped for inspection.
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,559
The subject title compelled me to read the thread. Nicely played.

I am a bit surprised that any diamond with "faint" fluorescence would be used as a negative example. "Overblues" - diamonds with so much fluorescence that they're very hazy - are extremely rare and would typically associated with very-strong fluorescence.

From GIA's 1997 landmark report on the subject:
http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf

Although yellow fluorescent diamonds and “overblues” are also of concern in the trade, such stones are so rare that we could not assemble appropriate examples to perform a comparable study. We obtained the cooperation of 46 observers from a wide variety of trade and nontrade backgrounds. One interesting aspect of this study was that the nontrade observers could not make meaningful distinctions. For this group, which would be considered most representative of the jewelry-buying public, fluorescence had no overall effect on color appearance or transparency. For the experienced observers, we found that, in general, the strength of fluorescence had no widely perceptible effect on the color appearance of diamonds viewed table-down (as is typical in laboratory and trade grading). In the table-up position (as is commonly encountered in jewelry), diamonds described as strongly or very strongly fluorescent were, on average, reported as having a better color appearance than less fluorescent stones. In this study, blue fluorescence was found to have even less effect on transparency. These observations confirm GIA GTL’s experience grading millions of diamonds over the decades.


Your temptress may not be deliberately trying to mislead you. I regularly conduct staff-training for jewelry salespeople and find myself regularly addressing and correcting the age-old myth that fluorescence is evil. The trade bedtime-story dates from decades-ago when a strain of highly-fluorescent to overblue stones came out of The Premier Mine in SA; renamed The Cullinan on its centenary in 2003. That mine was a primary source of all diamonds back then so they did indeed hit the market in short order. That strain ran its course long ago, but the fluorescence bogeyman made an impression that continues to be passed-on (and sometimes used selectively as a scare tactic) In keeping with this, appraiser-friends who have seen overblues - some have never even seen one - report that they come by-way of estate jewelry.
 

iota15

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
1,278
She was definitely misleading you. There's no way an AGS FAINT flouro stone will appear hazy because of the flouro!! :angryfire: I am so mad for you. Maybe it was dirty, or poorly cut but it was definitely not the flouro.

If you put a faint flouro under a black light, you only get the tiniest of glow of flouro. There is NO WAY that is detracting from the stone's beauty in any normal light scenario. It's not even all that apparent under black lights! There's videos around if you need confirmation. :angryfire: ACK!
 

tchia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
22
I actually did read most of the GIA report on florescence before deciding on the BGD stone at Brian's suggestion. I too was perplexed when I was told that the hazy example was a faintly fluoresced stone with the AGS0 grade. Perhaps it's best to stay away from the local temptress before her power of persuasion become too strong to bear?
 

jsb1976

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
53
I also thought about having the stone shipped to me for inspection to compare before I completed the purchase with the custom setting. The shipping is about $130 both ways and even though it's not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things, but I'd hate to spend more money needlessly. Ideally, I would fly down to Houston to look at it in person, but the flight is over $300...haha.
Seriously?

You are spending thou$and$ on a diamond and are going to be nit picky about a $130 shipping cost to allay your fears of receiving a hazy diamond. (I have a BGD Blue and it is not hazy. Doubt the man would be this popular if he was selling hazy diamonds).
Shipping the diamond to you is free from BGD.
 

Luminous-MB

Rough_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
84
slg47|1304092027|2907980 said:
Lula|1304091603|2907973 said:
Dreamer_D|1304090252|2907947 said:
Bleck, your story leaves a bad taste in my mouth :knockout: . I really hate those types of sales tactics where they try to scare you and, frankly, mislead you. I can't say why the H stone looked crummy to you because faint flour should not affect optics. I am guessing it was dirty or else poorly cut and is not as represented in the cert.

My advice: Have the BGD blue sent to you loose *now* to allay your fears. If you don't like it, proceed with the local. But I am better it will blow you away.

BGD would not sell a hazy stone with an upgrade policy, btw. I think the vendor you met was fear mongering.
Ditto everything Dreamer says in this post -- take the BGD stone in loose and compare it to what she's offering you. I don't believe BGD would risk their reputation by selling you a hazy stone, but don't take our word for it -- let your eyes make the decision. The cost of shipping the stone loose and then shipping it back for setting is well worth your peace of mind.
TOTALLY agree.
I would second this. Nothing is more important than peace of mind.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
iota15|1304098405|2908072 said:
She was definitely misleading you. There's no way an AGS FAINT flouro stone will appear hazy because of the flouro!! :angryfire: I am so mad for you. Maybe it was dirty, or poorly cut but it was definitely not the flouro.

If you put a faint flouro under a black light, you only get the tiniest of glow of flouro. There is NO WAY that is detracting from the stone's beauty in any normal light scenario. It's not even all that apparent under black lights! There's videos around if you need confirmation. :angryfire: ACK!
Exactly. She was misleading you. Or she is not very informed about diamonds.
 

Jax172

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 11, 2002
Messages
948
Since you did not see the cert my guess would be the haziness comes from the clarity grade (meaning she over - estimated it) and not the florescence. I have a stone with either medium or strong florescence (I can't remember which now) and it's not hazy at all. BGD wouldn't sell something subpar. I am sure the stone is beautiful. And looking at these stones under a black light is the coolest! :)
 

Krae11

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
53
As others have said, BG has a reputation to uphold. I don't believe he would allow his name to be attached to a stone that was anything less than spectacular. It would cost him too much in the long run. I've been going through a similar state of nervousness about buying a stone through BGD sight unseen, but if it is BGD Blue, you can have Jamie or Lesley look at it for you. They won't lie to you and tell you it's beautiful unless it is. I think they are very genuine and highly value their stellar reputation. You're in good hands with BGD. Just trust them and I truly believe you're good to go. Ignore the fear-mongering. It's a desperate tactic. Don't buy it.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,747
Mostly everything has been said above but the ONLY time I've seen a hazy affect in a faint blue is when the stone is dirty or when it's got serious clarity problems that wouldn't correctly be graded SI1 (or even SI2 for that matter). Whether or not there are deliberate shenanegans going on is a topic I'll avoid but her comparison doesn't hold water.

In terms of 'overblues', they are extremely rare. I've been trying to buy one for years for my collection, especially a well cut one that is otherwise free of problems. This is not an easy item to find even when it's what you want.

By the way, I second, or third or fourth the idea of bring in the stone to look at yourself. She's now poisoned your imagination and the best way to solve it is to actually take a look and prove it to yourself. $130 is cheap peace of mind.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
20,540
Multiplitto sleazy sales tactics, something smelling funky, faint fluor *not* being the cause of the haziness. Could have been severe cloud inclusions, dirty stone (even if the crown is clean a filthy pavilion can wreak havoc on light return)...


Actually, as I noted in a thread on fluor some time ago (here, and more reading on fluor here and here), in that article GIA is very careful NOT to directly claim fluorescence - strong or weak - as the reason for haziness. There may be a correlation, given other factors like pervasive inclusions, but it is not understood that one always causes the other - in fact we have plenty of empirical evidence that one does not always cause the other - I believe this to be a fantastically important distinction. It wouldn't be the first time an entire industry has misunderstood and misrepresented correlation as causation.

Stick with the BGD - spend the couple hundred to have it shipped out, and take a couple of days to thoroughly reassure yourself.
 

tchia

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
22
I just wanted to thank all the people that have taken the time to contribute thought to my quandary. The advice of this community is invaluable. Keep up the good work. I came really close to taking a road trip down from Kansas City to Houston this afternoon to check out my stone. In the end, I decided it wouldn't be necessary. I felt like the folks at BGD along with the members of this board have provided a body of evidence that have brought clarity to the matter. I can honestly say that the stone to me is mind clean. I also know that in the unlikely scenario that it turns out to be subpar, Brian will take care of me. If he doesn't, the saga will continue and will be coming soon to a thread near you.
 

Ickeymouse

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
58
Sounds like you two saw the same lady...ever read this testimonial on the GOG website?!

"Here's a story for you...

After you shipped me the diamond, I went back to the two local dealers I had been dealing with. I had a stone on hold at each (with a refundable deposit), and wanted to let them know I've chosen my stone and wanted to get my dough back.

The first place bowed out reasonably graciously.. they did throw a few more stones my way, but a little too little a little too late. The second place was curious to see the diamond and offered to check it out (ie do a Sarin, etc). Knowing they wouldn't have a stone to match (price and qual) I figured, what the hell. Of course, they looked at the cert and saw the faint fluorescence marking. The head sales woman called in the owner, both of which had their GIA diplomas on the wall. They both exclaimed that my diamond was not faint.. that by GIA standards it was definitely a strong. And, that the AGS was too lenient. According to these ladies, had I gotten my rock cert'd from GIA, I would never have bought it seeing it was strong flouro, and that they know a strong one when they see one, since they had been trained at the GIA.

So, before I started to panic, I asked to see a GIA certed flouro diamond next to mine in the black lite gembox. All they had (wink wink) was an inert GIA. Of course, I could see the difference... and not knowing how much "glow" was faint vs. strong... I started to panic. They proceeded to tell me that a strong flouro nice color diamond should be devalued 15% off Rap, and being the owner and head buyer, she knows the value, and I got ripped off. I pulled out the Rap sheet quoting percentages for how flouro affects stones. "out of date" they said. They said they'd be happy to "save" me, and search for an E -VS1 to match, but if I truly wanted an ideal cut, it was gonna cost me Rap+10%. In my panic stricken state, I said go for it.

In the days to follow, I contemplated getting my stone re-certed at GIA. I called them, and they'd rush it for me (4 days) at $177. That was some dough and too much time, but I thought, for peace of mind, is it worth it? For the next few days, I stared at the stone in sunlight, shade, overcast sunlight, candlelight, halogen, fluorescent, etc trying to see if I could see the "strong" flouro.

After nearly vomiting and passing out from all the stress, I ran into a dude in my lab who just got engaged. He recommended another jeweler in town who he had had a good experience with. I went, told them my story, and how I wasn't sure who to trust, and that I was tired of all the local dealers feeding me crap. I asked if they could pull out some GIA stones of similar weight and color, with faint, med, strong flouro so I could compare. They first looked at my stone, remarked how beautiful it was, then looked at my cert and told me not to worry. Then, they brought out the GIA stones.. and we set them side by side in backlight gem box.

Quelling my fears, there it was... my diamond not glowing anywhere near the Medium, much less the strong. It was even weaker than one of the GIA faints. DAMN!! I WAS RELIEVED. Then I was pissed for those (pardon the french) two bit hookers trying to throw their GIA credentials to scare me into a sale with them..."
What's up with that?!!

Seriously though, these vendors shamelessly take advantage of a guy when he is in a hyped up, fearful of making a mistake, mind set. Kinda sad. All these men want to do is make their prospectives happy, and not get ripped off while doing it, and these unscrupulous sales people KNOW it!! It makes shopping for a diamond ring, feel like buying a used car! It's too bad that these bad apples give jewelers in general such bad press! That is why we appreciate so much, companies like Excel, Brian Gavin, Whiteflash, and GOG (just to name a few), they tell it like it is, no pressure.

Like others have said, get the stone, see it for yourself. I think BG ships it to you for free, then it will probably only cost you around $50.00 - $60.00 to send it back overnight, less, if you want to wait longer and send it USPS certified and insured mail. I am not sure if you need to pay to ship it back to you when the ring is all set, but again, worth the peace of mind.

Good Luck!!
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
20,540
tchia|1304142811|2908471 said:
I just wanted to thank all the people that have taken the time to contribute thought to my quandary. The advice of this community is invaluable. Keep up the good work. I came really close to taking a road trip down from Kansas City to Houston this afternoon to check out my stone. In the end, I decided it wouldn't be necessary. I felt like the folks at BGD along with the members of this board have provided a body of evidence that have brought clarity to the matter. I can honestly say that the stone to me is mind clean. I also know that in the unlikely scenario that it turns out to be subpar, Brian will take care of me. If he doesn't, the saga will continue and will be coming soon to a thread near you.

I am glad to hear that the stone is mind-clean - that is always the concern with issues like this! I think you'll be very happy with it, and if you aren't you have several options, as BGD has good policies for return/upgrade :)) Please post pictures when you get it!
 

iota15

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
1,278
Quelling my fears, there it was... my diamond not glowing anywhere near the Medium, much less the strong. It was even weaker than one of the GIA faints. DAMN!! I WAS RELIEVED. Then I was pissed for those (pardon the french) two bit hookers trying to throw their GIA credentials to scare me into a sale with them..."
Pardon the french, indeed! I know it must have been frustrating for the writer, but seriously, this is HILARIOUS! Thanks for posting the story, Ickeymouse.

Well, tchia, I'm glad you're feeling mind clean about this stone. I'm sure it's going to be wonderful - and again, BGD has a fantastic return policy should it not meet your snuff. :)

Congratulations, and make sure to take lots of pictures for us! We love pictures!!!
 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    June’s Birthstone Trinity
    June’s Birthstone Trinity

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top