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Let's Settle The Email Nonsense and Benghazi . . .

iLander

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If the Bush Administration lost many more emails and many used private email servers, why is Hillary crucified for the same thing?

http://www.snopes.com/g-w-bush-lost-22-million-e-mails/)

During the course of a Congressional investigation it was found that many Bush White House staffers (including then-Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove) had conducted official business via private e-mail accounts on a server owned and maintained by the Republican National Committee. Then it was revealed that as many as 22 million e-mails sent and received via these private accounts "were not preserved" in accordance with the Presidential Records Act of 1978, which requires that all official communications be archived and accounted for.

In plain terms, some 22 million e-mails had been deleted, though the White House described them as "lost" or "missing" — another apparent point of comparison between the Bush and Clinton e-mail scandals. However, at least some of the 22 million "lost" Bush administration e-mails (unlike Clinton's 30,000) were eventually "found."

To put it more accurately, a large number (it's unclear exactly how many) of the messages were recovered from backup storage systems by technicians as a result of a deal struck between the federal government and two nonprofit groups that sued for release of the e-mails via the Freedom of Information Act. It may be impossible, ultimately, to restore all of the deleted e-mails due to funding limitations, and to date none of the recovered messages has been made public because they're still under review, but the fact remains that not all of them were permanently lost.

As in Clinton's case, the Bush administration e-mails were sought as evidence in government investigations. No no charges were filed and no criminal wrongdoing was found in regard to Clinton's handling of e-mails. Bush aides were found in contempt of Congress for not complying with subpoenas in the U.S. attorney firings investigation, but no punishment was handed down.


Under the Bush administration, 87 people died in 39 attacks on various embassies and consulates. So why was Clinton subjected to 8 Congressional "investigations" for one fatal attack?


Excerpt: Garamendi also understated the number of deaths. In the 20 incidents with at least one fatality, the total death toll was 87 -- quite a few more than the 60 Garamendi cited. If you only count those at embassies and consulates proper, the number of deaths drops to 66.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/may/12/john-garamendi/prior-benghazi-were-there-13-attacks-embassies-and/

If you ask me, the Republicans have been smearing Hillary for all these years because she is a strong woman. And that makes the boys' club angry, and vengeful.

If you eliminate (and you should) this propaganda from her record, do you still have to "hold your nose" to vote for her? I don't think so.
 

Bayek

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Facts don't influence Clinton haters, they are influenced by 'gut feelings' that she 'did something?' wrong.. no matter.
 

iLander

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Oh, I agree 100%, Tekate.

I'm hoping to provide facts for anyone that may need to persuade an on-the-fence voter. :wavey: :wavey: We need every vote. Every. Vote.

I'm hoping to point out how the boy's club has worked against her for many years. I know a lot of Psers don't think that sexism exists anymore, but I believe it still does.

I'm hoping that we all see how we have been influenced by years of BS and propaganda. We tell ourselves things like "Well . . . I don't want to vote for her, but . . . " Why do we think this, really? What's at the core of these feelings? I assert it is Republican propaganda.

But I agree, it is impossible to change opinions, because very few have open minds.
 

House Cat

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iLander

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House Cat|1477576293|4091126 said:
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/23/george-w-bush-white-house-lost-22-million-emails-497373.html

I posted this a few weeks ago and there was only one response. You should watch the video. The gist... The Bush administration was untouchable. But you know what? The Clintons are untouchable too. These families are very powerful. They all live by a different set of rules.
I dunno . . . seems like there was a lot of touching :bigsmile: :lol: :lol: :lol: (hearings, smears, etc) . . .
 

monarch64

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iLander|1477576156|4091125 said:
Oh, I agree 100%, Tekate.

I'm hoping to provide facts for anyone that may need to persuade an on-the-fence voter. :wavey: :wavey: We need every vote. Every. Vote.

I'm hoping to point out how the boy's club has worked against her for many years. I know a lot of Psers don't think that sexism exists anymore, but I believe it still does.

I'm hoping that we all see how we have been influenced by years of BS and propaganda. We tell ourselves things like "Well . . . I don't want to vote for her, but . . . " Why do we think this, really? What's at the core of these feelings? I assert it is Republican propaganda.

But I agree, it is impossible to change opinions, because very few have open minds.
They'll never admit to it. But I stand with you, because it's very, very obvious. Were she a man, I believe she''d be lauded for her actions. And to really reinforce that thought: imagine HRC being caught on audio/video saying she could grab any man by the penis because she's a star, or imagine HRC rating men as numbers on a scale, or imagine HRC being excused and explained away because "girls will be girls, wink wink." And there you have it. BLATANTLY OBVIOUS. But no, we don't have a problem with sexism here! The U.S. is the greatest country on earth! I mean, where else would you want to live? :sick: :(sad :oops:
 

House Cat

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monarch64|1477576737|4091132 said:
iLander|1477576156|4091125 said:
Oh, I agree 100%, Tekate.

I'm hoping to provide facts for anyone that may need to persuade an on-the-fence voter. :wavey: :wavey: We need every vote. Every. Vote.

I'm hoping to point out how the boy's club has worked against her for many years. I know a lot of Psers don't think that sexism exists anymore, but I believe it still does.

I'm hoping that we all see how we have been influenced by years of BS and propaganda. We tell ourselves things like "Well . . . I don't want to vote for her, but . . . " Why do we think this, really? What's at the core of these feelings? I assert it is Republican propaganda.

But I agree, it is impossible to change opinions, because very few have open minds.
They'll never admit to it. But I stand with you, because it's very, very obvious. Were she a man, I believe she''d be lauded for her actions. And to really reinforce that thought: imagine HRC being caught on audio/video saying she could grab any man by the penis because she's a star, or imagine HRC rating men as numbers on a scale, or imagine HRC being excused and explained away because "girls will be girls, wink wink." And there you have it. BLATANTLY OBVIOUS. But no, we don't have a problem with sexism here! The U.S. is the greatest country on earth! I mean, where else would you want to live? :sick: :(sad :oops:
To be fair, Trump's behavior toward women has ruined his chances of becoming president. While I realize his numbers fell sharply after the first presidential debate, I believe that they stayed there because of his "grab them by the ....." comments and his disgraceful behavior that followed.

I believe the majority are speaking.
 

ChristineRose

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Presidents in general are not touchable, especially when it's for something that really has no effect on actual governance.

Having a private e-mail server is not illegal.
Making mistakes about embassy security is not illegal.
Having a colleague succumb to depression is not illegal.
Being married to a lush is not illegal.

There's a certain degree of hubris here--removing the suicide note so the press would never see it, setting up a private server so that you can talk about a wedding without attracting a million paparazzi. But the right wing radio crowd has spun narratives of horrible criminal conspiracy around all this. Mrs. Clinton has a hit squad for the harassed women. Secretary Clinton planned the embassy attack. The first lady murdered Vince Foster to keep him from talking. The e-mail server was to share classified information with Satanists.

It's that last part that makes me cry sexism. I can't figure out what the hell else it could be.
 

arkieb1

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She's a woman and they need something on her. I keep reiterating when all the people on here keep demanding those emails should be make public, why? You want your national secrets in the newspapers for everyone to see? They don't think Trump would do far worse [email protected]#* than that? She's not the first and she won't be the last to do secret deals and save people's lives and get people killed, that was the job she was in, the conspiracy theorists need to get the hell over it.
 

monarch64

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arkieb1|1477579076|4091140 said:
She's a woman and they need something on her. I keep reiterating when all the people on here keep demanding those emails should be make public, why? You want your national secrets in the newspapers for everyone to see? They don't think Trump would do far worse [email protected]#* than that? She's not the first and she won't be the last to do secret deals and save people's lives and get people killed, that was the job she was in, the conspiracy theorists need to get the hell over it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Brava, Arkie. Thank you for this absolute GEM of a comment.
 

redwood66

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I have read the 22 mil. email issue that HouseCat posted before and I am probably the one who responded. As the communications and cyber community evolves things change and the US has discovered that it must be much more diligent in its protection of our most important secrets. If the Bush administration was being secretive to hide information in using servers in addition to WH ones then the emails should be reviewed. It appears they did both to keep on the right side of the Hatch act. That is their story. Do I believe it? Dunno. It appears the emails are available on backup servers and were not purposely deleted with special programs to make them irrecoverable. We must also recognize that the process for preserving and archiving communication has evolved over the years.

As far as the Benghazi and the other embassies issue, there is not much information in that article to tell me what happened at these other embassy attacks. Most were not Americans that died. My knowledge of embassies is little other than what I read and what I have heard from my family member who worked at the US Embassy in Yemen for 6 years. I do know that they always have a large complement of protection forces for staff especially in the most dangerous areas of which Yemen was one. This was not the case in Benghazi. It has been proven that State and the administration knew they were being false to the American people about the reason for the attack. I am not stupid. I can see that it would not be good 2 months before an election if our ambassador was killed in a coordinated attack.

My whole issue with all of these "scandals" is the lying. If your first reaction is to lie when it looks like you are caught then I have a problem with that. No matter your gender or party affiliation. I do agree with HC that the Bush and Clinton families are untouchable and that is a shame.

Is DC corrupt? I believe so and it is not limited to one party only. They all are and it is our fault for not holding all of them accountable. It is the media's fault for deciding what to print and air with a bias that is flagrant at this point. I wish there were more true media outlets that when I read or hear the information it is not filled with opinion.
 

monarch64

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Redwood, once again your words are well thought out and make total sense. I don't like the lying part of things, either. I would like to see a more proactive approach from our elected officials--instead of reacting by lying and covering up, at least be preemptive and have a response that makes you look like you knew what you were doing in the first place before the freakin' story breaks. It's the devious nature/the denial of actual facts that makes citizens lose confidence in their chosen (or not chosen) leaders. Brings to mind the unveiling of the real Wizard of Oz in the movie, you know? I guess in the end we are all just humans, winging it--even those whom we expect will do better at protecting the rest of us.
 

House Cat

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monarch64|1477580594|4091149 said:
Redwood, once again your words are well thought out and make total sense. I don't like the lying part of things, either. I would like to see a more proactive approach from our elected officials--instead of reacting by lying and covering up, at least be preemptive and have a response that makes you look like you knew what you were doing in the first place before the freakin' story breaks. It's the devious nature/the denial of actual facts that makes citizens lose confidence in their chosen (or not chosen) leaders. Brings to mind the unveiling of the real Wizard of Oz in the movie, you know? I guess in the end we are all just humans, winging it--even those whom we expect will do better at protecting the rest of us.
This is such a compassionate way of looking at things. I must use this frame of mind when I feel my heart turning cold and hard.

<3
 

redwood66

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monarch64|1477580594|4091149 said:
Redwood, once again your words are well thought out and make total sense. I don't like the lying part of things, either. I would like to see a more proactive approach from our elected officials--instead of reacting by lying and covering up, at least be preemptive and have a response that makes you look like you knew what you were doing in the first place before the freakin' story breaks. It's the devious nature/the denial of actual facts that makes citizens lose confidence in their chosen (or not chosen) leaders. Brings to mind the unveiling of the real Wizard of Oz in the movie, you know? I guess in the end we are all just humans, winging it--even those whom we expect will do better at protecting the rest of us.
I also like the way you put this! I taught my kids that it is worse to lie about a screw up than the screw up itself. Just own up to it. I wish more politicians would think like this and have integrity. Its what you do when no one is looking that matters. We are all human though. ;))
 

Matata

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There were articles all over the place yesterday with the republicans stating they intend to keep investigating the email and Benghazi issues ad nauseum. They are also planning to block ALL of her supreme court nominees stating that it may be time to let the court die a natural death. The perfect definition of stupidity -- doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And then there's the massive amount of money that will continue to be spent trying to dig up dirt on Clinton rather than putting the time and money toward programs that need attention. I don't believe our elected leaders even pretend to care about doing what's honorable for our country. I alternate between despair and rage over the state of our governmental affairs.
 

ksinger

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Matata|1477582589|4091169 said:
There were articles all over the place yesterday with the republicans stating they intend to keep investigating the email and Benghazi issues ad nauseum. They are also planning to block ALL of her supreme court nominees stating that it may be time to let the court die a natural death. The perfect definition of stupidity -- doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And then there's the massive amount of money that will continue to be spent trying to dig up dirt on Clinton rather than putting the time and money toward programs that need attention. I don't believe our elected leaders even pretend to care about doing what's honorable for our country. I alternate between despair and rage over the state of our governmental affairs.
Can you point me to where you read that one? It boggles the mind, and I'd like to know who said it. I know Cruz - who actually creeps me out far more than Trump ever could - said he'd be good with going forward with blocking all of Clinton's nominees, but nothing so bizarre as "letting the court die a natural death". :-o
 

iLander

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Matata said:
There were articles all over the place yesterday with the republicans stating they intend to keep investigating the email and Benghazi issues ad nauseum. They are also planning to block ALL of her supreme court nominees stating that it may be time to let the court die a natural death. The perfect definition of stupidity -- doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And then there's the massive amount of money that will continue to be spent trying to dig up dirt on Clinton rather than putting the time and money toward programs that need attention. I don't believe our elected leaders even pretend to care about doing what's honorable for our country. I alternate between despair and rage over the state of our governmental affairs.
THIS! 100% this!

Unless we start calling them out on this endless sexist Witch Hunt, then our government and our Democratic way of life are threatened by inaction and stupidity. Let the court die?! WTF?! Lose one of our Constitutional checks and balances for sexist political BS? Oh. My. God. Fascism. Treason.

That statement indicates to me that Republicans are intent on killing our democracy.
 

Matata

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liaerfbv

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ksinger|1477585014|4091187 said:
Matata|1477582589|4091169 said:
There were articles all over the place yesterday with the republicans stating they intend to keep investigating the email and Benghazi issues ad nauseum. They are also planning to block ALL of her supreme court nominees stating that it may be time to let the court die a natural death. The perfect definition of stupidity -- doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And then there's the massive amount of money that will continue to be spent trying to dig up dirt on Clinton rather than putting the time and money toward programs that need attention. I don't believe our elected leaders even pretend to care about doing what's honorable for our country. I alternate between despair and rage over the state of our governmental affairs.
Can you point me to where you read that one? It boggles the mind, and I'd like to know who said it. I know Cruz - who actually creeps me out far more than Trump ever could - said he'd be good with going forward with blocking all of Clinton's nominees, but nothing so bizarre as "letting the court die a natural death". :-o

I am so f*cking disgusted with the Republican party over this SCOTUS bullshit - as much as I would probably never vote for a Republican based on common ideals, this stunt has pretty much guaranteed a life-long Democrat vote from me.

I do not understand how it is not clear to some that continued support for these Republican obstructionist *******s will literally lead to the erosion of our constitutional democracy. "The party of Lincoln" my ass - more like "the party who throws tantrums" ughhhh.
 

ksinger

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Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
ksinger -- Crus and McCain. This is from the somewhat fluffly Huff post today but you can find the info also in Washington Post and I believe I also saw it in NYT as well as CNN and BBC

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/harry-reid-senate-gop-supreme-court_us_58114f13e4b0390e69ce2f56?vuxm94v8lp9hzuayvi

Supreme court death http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/supreme-court-hillary-clinton-nominees_us_580fed9ae4b08582f88cb00c?section=us_politics
Thanks Matata.

You know, in a normal time I would find this stuff to be fringe-y hyperbole, but since the true-believer nutters like Cruz, are in control, I have to entertain this stuff as a dystopian nightmare that actually has some legs.

What amazes me, is that they are so breathtakingly open about their hypocritical lies about their rationale for denying Obama his pick: the PEOPLE should "have a say" via their next pick (a total load of codswallop but OK). But moving the goalposts again when it looks like they may lose. I guess "the people" doing the choosing of Clinton aren't the RIGHT people, (only white Republicans are) so their will and their choice don't really count. Of course, it was never about the people in the first place.

Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
 

Matata

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ksinger|1477587376|4091202 said:
Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
:appl: And failing that, I'd like to see us establish a monarchy with Michelle Obama installed as Queen for the next 4 years just to enjoy seeing her reap retribution upon their sorry arses.
 

monarch64

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Matata|1477587687|4091206 said:
ksinger|1477587376|4091202 said:
Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
:appl: And failing that, I'd like to see us establish a monarchy with Michelle Obama installed as Queen for the next 4 years just to enjoy seeing her reap retribution upon their sorry arses.
Yes! Let's, please! I am 200% behind you on this. GOD I LOVE THAT WOMAN.
 

AGBF

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monarch64|1477589327|4091207 said:
Matata|1477587687|4091206 said:
ksinger|1477587376|4091202 said:
Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
:appl: And failing that, I'd like to see us establish a monarchy with Michelle Obama installed as Queen for the next 4 years just to enjoy seeing her reap retribution upon their sorry arses.
Yes! Let's, please! I am 200% behind you on this. GOD I LOVE THAT WOMAN.
I think Michelle Obama is great. I prefer Democratic control of both the Senate and the House to the coronation of Mrs. Obama, however. I am still somewhat attached to our form of government, even though it seems to have failed us recently. My prayer is to win both houses of Congress!

Deb :wavey:
 

monarch64

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AGBF|1477589800|4091213 said:
monarch64|1477589327|4091207 said:
Matata|1477587687|4091206 said:
ksinger|1477587376|4091202 said:
Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
:appl: And failing that, I'd like to see us establish a monarchy with Michelle Obama installed as Queen for the next 4 years just to enjoy seeing her reap retribution upon their sorry arses.
Yes! Let's, please! I am 200% behind you on this. GOD I LOVE THAT WOMAN.
I think Michelle Obama is great. I prefer Democratic control of both the Senate and the House to the coronation of Mrs. Obama, however. I am still somewhat attached to our form of government, even though it seems to have failed us recently. My prayer is to win both houses of Congress!

Deb :wavey:
You are very sensible, Deb. I enjoy hyperbole, though, and fully invest myself in it whenever possible as you may have gleaned from some of my posts here. Our current system, however flawed, is still one I have faith in, of course. Maybe I am just excited at the thought of a woman in power. :bigsmile:
 

Matata

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AGBF|1477589800|4091213 said:
monarch64|1477589327|4091207 said:
Matata|1477587687|4091206 said:
ksinger|1477587376|4091202 said:
Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
:appl: And failing that, I'd like to see us establish a monarchy with Michelle Obama installed as Queen for the next 4 years just to enjoy seeing her reap retribution upon their sorry arses.
Yes! Let's, please! I am 200% behind you on this. GOD I LOVE THAT WOMAN.
I think Michelle Obama is great. I prefer Democratic control of both the Senate and the House to the coronation of Mrs. Obama, however. I am still somewhat attached to our form of government, even though it seems to have failed us recently. My prayer is to win both houses of Congress!

Deb :wavey:
Deb, please do not pee all over my fantasy. Between you and Redwood (who did not relish my fantasy of a Canamerex similar to the EU) I am prevented from disassociating from reality and stuck in adulting mode which is really so very depressing :D
 

redwood66

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Matata|1477587687|4091206 said:
ksinger|1477587376|4091202 said:
Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
:appl: And failing that, I'd like to see us establish a monarchy with Michelle Obama installed as Queen for the next 4 years just to enjoy seeing her reap retribution upon their sorry arses.
:shock: :errrr:

Oh no please no.
 

Matata

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redwood66|1477590219|4091221 said:
Matata|1477587687|4091206 said:
ksinger|1477587376|4091202 said:
Matata|1477585722|4091190 said:
Dems need to regain the Senate and remove the filibuster on SC appointment immediately.
:appl: And failing that, I'd like to see us establish a monarchy with Michelle Obama installed as Queen for the next 4 years just to enjoy seeing her reap retribution upon their sorry arses.
:shock: :errrr:

Oh no please no.
See, there ya go again, busting my bubble. (Did you see the post right above yours?)
 

azstonie

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arkieb1|1477579076|4091140 said:
She's a woman and they need something on her. I keep reiterating when all the people on here keep demanding those emails should be make public, why? You want your national secrets in the newspapers for everyone to see? They don't think Trump would do far worse [email protected]#* than that? She's not the first and she won't be the last to do secret deals and save people's lives and get people killed, that was the job she was in, the conspiracy theorists need to get the hell over it.
:appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl:
 

momhappy

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Tekate|1477575277|4091122 said:
Facts don't influence Clinton haters, they are influenced by 'gut feelings' that she 'did something?' wrong.. no matter.
Actually, I do care about facts and no, it's not about gut feelings (at least for me). When I rely on gut feelings, it's typically more personal (like I know the people involved, etc.), but I couldn't possibly know a presidential candidate, so facts are actually more important when I'm trying to form opinions about a candidate.
It may come as a shock to some, but there are valid reasons why people don't care for the Clintons (just as there are valid reason why people don't care for Trump). I know that many people would like to believe that because Trump is so incredibly awful, that it must affect how one might feel about Clinton (like even if you don't care for her, she's better than Trump), but I treat each candidate individually. In other words, in my research, I've concluded that Trump is not worthy of my support and neither is Clinton.
 

Matata

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momhappy|1477591076|4091230 said:
Tekate|1477575277|4091122 said:
Facts don't influence Clinton haters, they are influenced by 'gut feelings' that she 'did something?' wrong.. no matter.
Actually, I do care about facts and no, it's not about gut feelings (at least for me). When I rely on gut feelings, it's typically more personal (like I know the people involved, etc.), but I couldn't possibly know a presidential candidate, so facts are actually more important when I'm trying to form opinions about a candidate.
It may come as a shock to some, but there are valid reasons why people don't care for the Clintons (just as there are valid reason why people don't care for Trump). I know that many people would like to believe that because Trump is so incredibly awful, that it must affect how one might feel about Clinton (like even if you don't care for her, she's better than Trump), but I treat each candidate individually. In other words, in my research, I've concluded that Trump is not worthy of my support and neither is Clinton.
Please share the facts that you discovered during your research that make you dislike Clinton. I dislike her too but not based upon facts that should disqualify her for president. She lost my respect staying with a serial cheater who humiliated her in public because (imo) she knew she needed him, baggage and all, to gain the presidency.
 
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