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Learning...and considering an ACA

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rmkwebdesign

Rough_Rock
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Hello! I'm new to learning about diamonds over the last few weeks. After doing quite a bit of preliminary research, I decided on a brilliant round, around 1ct. I read that good percentages would be between 60-62 depth and 54-57 table, and have been looking for a diamond similar. This diamond will be for a sollitaire engagement ring.

I recently made my first trip to a B&M (I've learned all these terms from Pricescope!), a mall store (a first place to start), and was able to look a stones myself. Seeing the inclusions, looking at the stones' brilliance, etc. was invaluable to do in person. All good so far. Next, I visited another B&M, this time a place that was a Hearts On Fire dealer. Never having heard of this (and not really being aware of the H&A-type diamonds), I was impressed with the brilliant stones I was being shown...though quite unimpressed with the hefty price tag.

One thing I found interesting looking at the HOF diamonds is that I could not easily detect inclusions in SI1 or SI2 stones...and I usually didn't have a problem finding them in traditional round brilliants. Are inclusions more difficult to see with HOF or H&A stones?

Not being willing to spend the premium for the HOF or at B&Ms, I did some searching here to learn more about H&A stones. Several posters suggested Whiteflash and their ACA stones. So, I have a few questions:

1) I'm assuming that Whiteflash doesn't have diamonds to look see at B&Ms. So, since I've not seen one in person, would it be appropriate to say that its look is similar to a HOF? In other words, having seen a HOF, is that what I can imagine the ACA having a similar look to? (I'm emphasizing the word "similar." I understand that the cut is different. But, is the HOF a good reference point for me? I think I'm willing to buy online without seeing in person at a B&M (heck, I bought a $6k car off of Ebay out-of-state w/o having driven it), but it still seems daunting.

2) A stone that looks very intruiging to me is the following: https://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-260699.htm

. Report: AGS
. Shape: A Cut Above H&A
. Carat: 1.073
. Depth %: 61.7
. Table %: 56.3
. Crown Angle: 34.8
. Crown %: 15.3
. Star : 51
. Pavilion Angle: 40.8
. Pavilion %: 42.9
. Lower Girdle %: 76
. Girdle: Thin to Medium Faceted
. Measurements: 6.55-6.58X4.05
. Light Performance: 0
. Polish: Ideal
. Symmetry: Ideal
. Culet: Pointed
. Fluorescence: Negligible

The price is $4999. Are there any thoughts? Concerns? Are the inclusions shown on the grade report discouraging in any way?

3) My budget was $4500. So, this is a bit higher than I wanted. Is there another place I should look for more competion? Another H&A brand I should consider? Does Whiteflash negotiate at all? (I also live in TX, and they charge sales tax to TX residents, so I'm getting hit for more money there...)

4) Do you have any other counsel for me as I'm try to narrow this search down? Or is my search too narrow as it is? Should I expand it in some way?

5) I am buying the engagement ring for my gf as a surprise. Therefore, I'm flying a little blind with the H&A. I've read some that don't like them, saying that they don't prefer the look in a 1ct size. Others, if I do a HOF search, have a bunch of folks who love them. So, not knowing if my gf has a preference, am I safe with a H&A stone? Or not?

Thanks very much for your consideration. I've learned a lot from many on this site already!
 
Hi rm,

Sounds like you've done your homework! I think you're on the right track.

I would recommend a H&A cut, trust me, she'll love it.
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WF has great stones, but any well cut stone will be beautiful. Since you're already over your budget with that one, and will still have to pay taxes, I'd suggest another vendor (other state) to avoid that. (and I don't hear too often of a vendor negotiating)

I found one in your range, one color down, but it will still be gorgeous. It's just under the ct. mark, so you're saving some money, but getting that 1 ct. "look". This is a really well cut stone also. With bankwire price it's 3990.00.

I have bought from both WF and GOG (in NY), both are great, and have good upgrade policies if you're interested.

http://204.17.89.15/diamond/br965jsi1/

p.s. Need to ask if eyeclean!
 
Ellen, thanks for your reply.

The diamond will be going into a white gold/platinum setting. Will it be bad to put the J diamond from GOG into this kind of setting? Will it show much more than an I?

Again...going sight unseen here, I''m unsure until I hear from some of you experts!
 
Date: 8/15/2007 9:17:28 PM
Author: rmkwebdesign
Ellen, thanks for your reply.

The diamond will be going into a white gold/platinum setting. Will it be bad to put the J diamond from GOG into this kind of setting? Will it show much more than an I?

Again...going sight unseen here, I''m unsure until I hear from some of you experts!
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Nope, it will be fine. Lots of women on here have done the same.

Hang on a sec, and I''ll try to find a thread with a bunch of J''s in it.
28.gif
 
Well, I''ve searched to no avail, but if you just do a search on J''s you''ll get several threads of gorgeous J stones in Platinum and WG.
 
When you find the diamond you want to buy and it is being sold in the same state as you are in, have the diamond shipped out of state to a trustworthy person you know to avoid the sales tax. That person can then overnight your diamond/ring to you. Paying for the shipping/insurance is likely way less than paying sales tax on a $4000+ diamond. Just make sure you trust whoever you send it to.
 
If you still consider WF, I would look at their Expert Selection stones. They are stones that just missed the ACA mark and they can be a great value. I would look at this one.
 
HI there,

Just one thing first that I noticed. ON ACA stones you get 5% discount. So that stone would be 4750 roughly if you pay by bank wire or direct deposit or check.

I think the HOF is a fair comparison. I have a HOF ring and they were the first stones I looked at pre-Pricescope. I only wish I had found PS before shelling out all the cash for the 2ctw RHR I bought from them!

Anyway I''ll read the rest of the thread now. Just wanted to let you know about the discount.

a
 
Hey even that WF stone is like 4750 considering a 5% ps and wire doscount, just swing the extra few bucks and go for it !!
 
Bigdiamonds has an excellent point. I have had both ES and ACA and honestly?... I think you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. I believe you couldn''t tell the difference at all with the naked eye.

On ES, the discount is about 3% I believe.
 
Date: 8/15/2007 11:23:11 PM
Author: hedarud
Hey even that WF stone is like 4750 considering a 5% ps and wire doscount, just swing the extra few bucks and go for it !!
Click to expand...

hedarud, great minds think alike!
 
TY all for your suggestions.

Where on WF''s web site indicates a 5% discount on ACA diamonds?? I can''t find that anywhere.
 
Date: 8/16/2007 1:16:42 AM
Author: rmkwebdesign
TY all for your suggestions.

Where on WF''s web site indicates a 5% discount on ACA diamonds?? I can''t find that anywhere.
Click to expand...
I don''t believe it''s on there, but you do get it, just mention it.

I didn''t look any further for stones there, as you had a set budget. I guess you need to figure out if with discount + taxes, it is still workable.
 
Date: 8/16/2007 1:16:42 AM
Author: rmkwebdesign
TY all for your suggestions.


Where on WF''s web site indicates a 5% discount on ACA diamonds?? I can''t find that anywhere.
Click to expand...

It''s a Pricescope discount. If you do a search using the ''Search by cut'' tool in the menu above under ''PRICES'', the discounted price shows. Just mention PS and you''ll get it.
 
You all are so helpful....thank you.
 
well, then you are talking about diamonds of AGS0 cut quality diamonds you are getting very high quality cuts. In fact, the "hearts and arrows" designation should not have any visual difference from a non Hearts and Arrows AGS 0, as long as there isn't some particularly unusual circumstance involved.

Because of the Stringent AGS0 standards, you could easily aim for an AGS0, sacrifice the brand name elements such as ACA or Hearts and Arrows and get a diamond of the same size with higher color and clarity in your price range. For instance, this diamond from Abazias:

H SI1 Ideal cut

"or WF can find out more about this one for you:

I SI1



I would suggest dropping the hearts and arrows designation in this situation. One reason is that everyone's eyesight is different, and your girlfriend may well be much more disturbed by J color or SI2 clarity than you or others on PS are.

If you had an opportunity to do some research with her and she didn't have a problem with your selected color/clarity, then choosing them could certainly be a great financial decision to make while getting name brand confidence and hearts and arrows recognition. However, there really won't be any noticable difference between a well cut AGS0 and a well cut AGS0 "hearts and arrows" diamond, unless you flip them over and bring out the symmetry scope--and even then in some cases the only difference will be longer clefts in the hearts, etc, and you may not even notice it then. Thus, going with lower clarity and color but getting "hearts and Arrows" is giving you something that won't be visible in exchange for something that might--and I daresay may very well be, at least from certain angles or in certain lighting--be visible.

Bassically, if she sees inclusions or she sees the yellow color of the lower color grades she may be very disturbed, but there is no chance she is going to look at an AGS0 and say "this is not sparkly at all, I am very unhappy with this diamonds light performance." Therefore in this situation I say, get rid of the "name brands" and "labels", and get a higher clarity and color of AGS 0 ideal cut!


and one final thought:

If you choose the ACA or other Hearts and Arrows AGS0 you wouldn't hardly have to worry about the cut at all. but because of there lower color and clarity they would absolutely have to be very carefully scrutinized on a case by case basis. such as: to make sure it is eyeclean and from what angles the inclusions can be seen, colors of inclusions, locations of inclusions, saturation of color and what type of color the J color is of.

And if you choose a nonbranded AGS0 of higher color and clarity you will need to run a check on those things, but it won't be as difficult to find a good stone and there is much less chance of them being a problem, but you will also want to take a good look at the numbers and confirm that the diamond is performing as well as AGS says it is..but that shouldn't require much work either.

thus, as a surprise Ering--I really think thats your best move, but thats just my opinion.
 
WorkingHard, thanks for your input.

Then, my next questions is this: I''ve read on the forums that "just because it says AGS0, doesn''t mean that it''s...[desiriable]..." So, if this is the case, what further qualifications am I looking for in a non H&A AGS0 diamond?

And am I reading correctly, that an AGS0 diamond, minus the H&A, still looks like an H&A?

Still being new to this, I saw a distinct difference between a BR and a HOF diamond. I guess the jeweler could have shown me a crummy-cut BR, , but it didn''t seem so. It still had a lot of fire. But not like the HOF, that''s for sure.

So if I move from looking at an ACA H&A to a AGS0 non-H&A, am I comparing apples and apples, sight unseen?
 
I am not pushing a vendor for any other reason than to direct you to the information you NEED to make this decision. But the stones I linked for you show you a picture of the stone, and all three of them look like hearts and arrows to me. If you buy from WhiteFlash or Good Old Gold, you can see magnified pictures and idealscopes of the stones that show you the arrows. So if you go with stones like those, you wouldn''t be able to tell them apart from the ACA''s. And some will be GIA excellents...I have one and it is certainly a hearts and arrows diamond.
 
Most AGS0 should be on fairly equal ground in terms of light performance. an IS image will help and having a gemologist the vendor look at a couple for you and help you decide would help, but that requires an in house stone.

However, in your case it is impossible to tell what the cause was between those two stone's you looked at. obviously if the diamond he showed you was not of top performing quality (say AGS3 or 4 for light performance type) and he compared it to a HOF, you would notice a difference.

It could also have been caused by differences such as LGF and stars, table size, etc. Its possible for a diamond to have equal light performance but have different qualities.


both methods require some leg work on your end, but from my experiences I believe the odds of her thinking an AGS0 is not "sparkly" terribly close to 0%, and the chance of her noticing inclusions in an SI2 or J color is fairly moderate...certainly not 0.


But, to make sure you get a diamond on equal footing as a ACA or a top of the line HOF, you would need to do a good bit of legwork analyzing numbers and getting other information, but what information is available really depends on the vendor, so I would suggest finding a few nice diamonds first, then finding out what information you can get and see if it is enough. and go back and look at some AGS0's, if they don't have them...then keep looking until you find some to look at.

Honestly, I think when you are talking about AGS0's, from what I have seen and read from members here such as Wink Jones and JQ, etc, the differences you will notice in AGS0's, and Hearts and Arrows, will really come down to small differences such as exact table % LGF numbers, and what the exact angles do in terms of light qualities. Will you get alot of white light return? alot of fire? alot of broad flashes, short flashes, etc. But there simply shouldn't be an AGS0 Hearts and Arrows or otherwise that is truly of less quality, only of difference quality.

Choosing an ACA or HOF carries with it the exact same matter of preference though, there is really no way to avoid it.
 
and DS put out a few really good examples, some of those I was looking at:) I think we both had the same idea--up that clarity for sure (in this situation, as she isn't helping with the search) and color if possible!

WF and GOG are great, especially if you can find someway to bypass the tax at WF but still get the at home service. That would be incredible. but even with tax, it may well be worth it.

However, alot of the information that GOG and WF provide over other vendors is not really necessary on an AGS0, as a tremendous amount of analysis has already been done in order for it to earn that grade in the first place. but of course, its always better to have than to not have.
 
rm, I would like to make a suggestion. Go back to the store with the HOF, and look at lower color stones, if you didn''t do that the first time. Find out where you see it, and determine if you think your gal could, you know her best.

You''ve already seen the lower clarity. And you realized, in a well cut stone, inclusions are harder to see, for the most part. Sure, you occassionally get one that looks bad.

There is nothing wrong with lower color and clarity. They allow you to buy bigger. And if an SI2 is totally eyeclean (and yes, they are out there, and on this board) there''s no reason to buy a higher clarity for something you can''t see.

While some prefer higher color and clarity, that doesn''t make them better.
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Date: 8/16/2007 11:10:20 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

both methods require some leg work on your end, but from my experiences I believe the odds of her thinking an AGS0 is not 'sparkly' terribly close to 0%, and the chance of her noticing inclusions in an SI2 or J color is fairly moderate...certainly not 0.
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RMK, you've gotten some great help here, and I can see that WHFSR is trying to be very helpful, too, but I fear this statement I've highlighted may mislead you a bit.

Some people are more color sensitive than others, and some are less so. Some are more inclusion-sensitive, and some are less so. It's a bit of an overstatement to say that chances are "fairly moderate" that she'll notice (or that she'll be disturbed by it.)

I am a gal who owns six stones. FIVE of them are SI2, all of which are eyeclean. Of my six stones, three are J stones; three are 3 H stones. They're all lovely, and they represented GREAT values.

When we were shopping for my engagement stone, someone suggested that SI2 was a DANGER zone, and I was afraid to consider them. I called WF to ask about an SI1 stone, and Brian had a larger SI2 stone that he said was actually MORE eyeclean than the SI1 stone. I was willing to trust his eyes, which put me into a 1.24 H SI2 stone for LESS than the cost of the 1.01 H, SI1 I had called about.

There's absolutely no reason to fear J stones OR SI2 stones as long as your vendor does two things: offers a return policy (which most of the reputable ones here do), and will examine the stone and 'be your eyes' to tell you if the stone is eyeclean or not.

If you were buying without a decent vendor to be your eyes, I'd likely agree with WHFSR's suggestion to improve the clarity. However, as Ellen pointed out, Pricescope is saturated with tons of pictures of eyeclean SI2 stones. They aren't THAT rare, and if you buy from a vendor who can be your eyes, there's no reason to avoid them.
 
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