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Laser Inscription- Hot or Cold?

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mdx

Brilliant_Rock
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There is an interesting debate going on in Australia at the moment regarding laser inscriptions.




Here are the issues




Hot laser technology as apposed to Cold is been debated as a dangerous practice as it is alleged that it can potentially damage the diamond or alternatively cause the clarity grading to downgrade.




The second issue relates to ethical question regarding retailers having report numbers inscribed after the report has been issued at the request of the client.




A typical case would be a client purchases a stone with a full GIA report that has not been inscribed. The client would like the report number on the girdle but for time and other logistical reasons has no need for the report to be reprinted.
Some parties are claiming this to be unethical and verging on fraud others feel there is nothing wrong if its the consumers decision. Interesting


I would welcome some thoughts on these matters.




In terms of Hot or Cold laser technology I would also welcome some input as we are considering purchasing a machine in the near future




Regards
Johan
 

tanalasta

Shiny_Rock
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The DCLA use a ''cold'' laser machine I believe.

Some customers would insist on a diamond inscription to ensure they are getting the diamond listed on the report (as it''s the most comfortable and convenient way for a consumer to identify a diamond without the aid of further appraising/grading tools).

I would hesitate to inscribe a ''GIA inscription'' identical to that done by the GIA. That ''would'' be fraud and leaves room for error. Consumers however are not always satisfied with certificate appraisals and confirmations that the stone they are buying is the one they are getting ... for instance, what if a jeweller does a switch after a setting.

There are two ways around this:
1. Send the stone back to the GIA who can verify and laser inscribe the stone without reissuing a new certificate. For a fee.
2. Send the stone (in Australia) to DCLA who are also a reputable laboratory and can inscribe a DCLA number and issue a DCLA certificate confirming the GIA certificate.

Cold laser machine inscriptions may be harder to locate but if it is less risky then I would also tend towards them.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Johan,


If you buy a laser, buy a Photoscribe (the cold one) dispite the fact that they are considerably more expensive. There is simply no downside to them beyond the price. The claim that they're harder to read is lame. Never buy cheap tools for your profession. Explaining to your customers that your service is only a little bit more risky then they guys down the block is not the way to instill confidence and to build repeat business.


I’m reminded of a bit of wisdom from my grandfather, who was a small time farmer in Kentucy: “If you want to find the best farmer, don’t look for the farm with the best house, look for the farm with the best barn.”


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

mdx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
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570
Hi Neil

Thank you very much for the words of advice.
The Photoscribe is certainly the top contender at this time.
While we have had some visibility issues with bruted girdles, we buy so few of them it’s not worth worrying about.

Love your grandfathers Philosophy


Johan
 

strmrdr

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personally I consider it fraud for anyone but GIA or AGS to inscribe their number.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Storm,


That’s a pretty harsh word. I assume that you aren’t referring to other labs or even retailers engraving their own serial numbers or messages but the practice of 3rd parties engraving GIA&AGS report numbers, right?


Please explain how someone is defrauded by an accurately engraved report number done by a 3rd party.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
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I am with Denver on this. so long as the inscription does not have the GIA opr AGS logo as if it were done by them, then there is no fraud, especially if the report number on the stone is the report number of the independant appraiser.

Most of the time when I have a stone engraved it is something along the lines of "Forever yours, Bill", or "10-12-2005 Forever joined in Love". Obviously no fraud there, although it "may" impact the resale value if forever turns out to be shorter than the Webster definition...

Wink
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Hi Johan,
I have been travelling for a month - and only had a little bit of gossip about this issue.

I think there is an issue about one lab trying to stand on the dead body of another, and I am not sure I like the ethics of talking down competitors.

DCLa do use a medium high end cold laser that I sold them from Photoscribe who have provided very good service.

The other lab uses a hot laser bolted on to a low end scanner.

The issue with the hot laser is that they should be OK if the girdle is not too thin or the writting too big - if you get too close to the edge chipping can occur - and this usually means some small repair polishing and possibly a loss of weight and lessor symmetry.
Secondly it is possible that inclusions close to the surface (even with paint) can get hot and blow up.

Both these things are small an infrequent events, and if the price is right and the operator is prepared to underwrite damage to dealers goods then what''s the problem?

But if you damage a consumers diamond - well that is a nightmare all raound.

Dave Atlas has used these types of machines and has posted realistic experiances here before.
(hi Dave - have not been able to email out, but will be home in a couple of long flying days)
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 3/17/2007 2:53:38 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Storm,



That’s a pretty harsh word. I assume that you aren’t referring to other labs or even retailers engraving their own serial numbers or messages but the practice of 3rd parties engraving GIA&AGS report numbers, right?



Please explain how someone is defrauded by an accurately engraved report number done by a 3rd party.



Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
correct. engrave "pete''s supreme diamond 101" and that''s kewl but not the report number.
I would not knowingly buy a stone that had the report # put on it by anyone but the lab.
The inscription is used as a form of ID and if the lab numbers are used they have to be put on by the lab and referenced in the cert or I will assume something is not on the up and up.
Further I think there should be a law outlawing anyone but the lab from putting the labs report number on a diamond.
There is way too much room for fraud in, well ill be nice and just say there are some rotten apples in the barrel that would make me think such laws are needed.
 

RockDoc

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Storm

There is a law already. Weak as they are, the "catch all" statute 23.1 in the FTC Jewelry Guidelines, covers it, if deception is intended.

Depending on "how" it is done, perhaps some coverage in the UCC, and in local statutes concerning consumer fraud.

I agree with you that the labs logo is best to have accompanying the report number, but most diamonds sent to the major labs are not inscribed at the time of grading. Getting the number later in some cases requires the stone to be examined again and there could be another grading charge, sometimes less but sometimes the same fee. GIA bases this on how long ago the stone was graded. If it was recently graded, I think there is a 50% of the grading fee charge - plus the inscription fee. Then if there is shipping involved, that increases the cost and if a seller has someone with an inscribing machine local to them, it is far less costly.

Like putting a manufacturer''s marking on gold or precious metals, putting the labs id/logo on each inscription would at least identify who did it. A certificate from the inscribing source, stating that the report number refers to another labs document would be ok, as long as the person who did the subsequent inscribing, is identifiable, and is accordingly accountable for any "monkey shines".


There was some previous case law for gold plating emblems on cars, where the people who plate car emblems were not plating the emblem with a thickness that was required for plating metals in the FTC Jewelry Guidelines. A smart lawyer convinced the judge that the car emblem plating company''s should have followed the plating thickness guidelines in the Jewelry Guides. Persuasive authority used here, and the judge agree. An argument for marking who you are when inscribing, might possibly have some "relation" that is persuasive in the metals stamping statutes.


The issue is of course, accountability, and the relevant intent. not just doing it.

Rockdoc
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Thanks for the info RD.


A company logo and serial number is a much better idea because its not implying that the lab did it down the road.
I would include a form as part of the documentation of the stone saying .. This diamond has logo/number engraved on it. We certify that this stone is the stone described in LAB/Report #.
That keeps the chain of responsibility clear.
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
2,509
Table inscriptions.

There are also table inscription services where the inscription is very small and put just under the surface of the stone.

The girdle type inscriptions are not difficult to remove, but the ones in the table are a lot more difficult and take a very experienced diamond cutter to remove.

ISEE 2 does this for their diamonds.

You need a special viewer to see these. There are even difficult to see using a microscope. There is a new hologen lit viewer that makes it easier to see.

The machine though, is very, very pricey that is capable of this..... around 1.M.

The service is priced reasonably, but the diamonds have to be shipped where the machine is.

The advantage of this is that no one can inscribe a table inscription, unless they have the machne. There are a fair amount of people with the other types, which could duplicate an inscription on a different diamond, and if the girdle inscription is polished off, well not much to depend on once that''s done. So far only one or two of these machines are in existance - but could be wrong about that.

The con of it is that the inscription isn''t easily seen as the girdle inscription which just require good eyes, and a good loupe.

Rockdoc
 

mdx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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570
Thank you very much guys

Bottem line its all about giving consumers a honest and transparent service

As usual the input from this forum is of a very high standard

Johan
 
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