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Lady Liberty Fly-By?

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Date: 4/30/2009 11:03:05 AM
Author: dragonfly411
meresal
I don''t expect them to forget. I do hope you guys don''t think that because no one can forget something like that. I just don''t think it''s healthy to live life in such a state of fear that you panic if a plane flies by. That can lead one to an early stress related death too. I''m sorry if my post sounded in sensitive to those who went through that, because I do feel for them.
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No plane merely flew by. They flew by in circumstances similar to those on 9/11. Your claim that we live in a state of fear is presumptuous. Think about triggers and responses.

"If?!" Try "that."
 
From the way the article sounds, the planes FLEW BY the statue of liberty several times. They didn''t FLY AT buildings. First of all.

I understand the difference between fear and action but that''s the thing. You FEAR being sideswiped... but do you go running every time a car drives by? no.

I FEAR the planes that fly low over our city, but I don''t run and throw myself into such a mass frenzy that I risk hurting someone or myself. If people are that afraid then they need to seek help, or PERHAPS the government could provide group sessions to help people to express their feelings and learn to cope with them. I understand that this really happened, but again, people should not live their lives in such an extreme state of fear that they panic when a plane flies by the buildings. Truly they shouldn''t HAVE to.
 
Date: 4/30/2009 3:37:52 PM
Author: dragonfly411
From the way the article sounds, the planes FLEW BY the statue of liberty several times. They didn''t FLY AT buildings. First of all.

I understand the difference between fear and action but that''s the thing. You FEAR being sideswiped... but do you go running every time a car drives by? no.

I FEAR the planes that fly low over our city, but I don''t run and throw myself into such a mass frenzy that I risk hurting someone or myself. If people are that afraid then they need to seek help, or PERHAPS the government could provide group sessions to help people to express their feelings and learn to cope with them. I understand that this really happened, but again, people should not live their lives in such an extreme state of fear that they panic when a plane flies by the buildings. Truly they shouldn''t HAVE to.
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That fear is what helps us to survive as a species.

If you endure something like 9/11, you learn to fear that because it''s necessary for your survival. If we didn''t have the instinct to fear what has hurt us in the past, we would not survive. It''s human nature.

Yes, you can work through a fear if it''s unnatural. For instance, if the sight of ANY plane, anywhere in the sky sent 9/11 victims into a screaming panic 8 years later, they may want to seek help. However, seeing a low flying plane, in the heart of NYC, that''s a 747... well... I think they''d be stupid not to react. We are predisposed to react. I''d rather trust my instinct and be wrong and a tad embarassed, than blow off my fear and die in a building.

This "photo op" was in poor taste, and very insensitive. I would''ve reacted the same way.
 
Date: 4/30/2009 3:50:48 PM
Author: elledizzy5
Date: 4/30/2009 3:37:52 PM

Author: dragonfly411

From the way the article sounds, the planes FLEW BY the statue of liberty several times. They didn''t FLY AT buildings. First of all.


I understand the difference between fear and action but that''s the thing. You FEAR being sideswiped... but do you go running every time a car drives by? no.


I FEAR the planes that fly low over our city, but I don''t run and throw myself into such a mass frenzy that I risk hurting someone or myself. If people are that afraid then they need to seek help, or PERHAPS the government could provide group sessions to help people to express their feelings and learn to cope with them. I understand that this really happened, but again, people should not live their lives in such an extreme state of fear that they panic when a plane flies by the buildings. Truly they shouldn''t HAVE to.
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That fear is what helps us to survive as a species.


If you endure something like 9/11, you learn to fear that because it''s necessary for your survival. If we didn''t have the instinct to fear what has hurt us in the past, we would not survive. It''s human nature.


Yes, you can work through a fear if it''s unnatural. For instance, if the sight of ANY plane, anywhere in the sky sent 9/11 victims into a screaming panic 8 years later, they may want to seek help. However, seeing a low flying plane, in the heart of NYC, that''s a 747... well... I think they''d be stupid not to react. We are predisposed to react. I''d rather trust my instinct and be wrong and a tad embarassed, than blow off my fear and die in a building.


This ''photo op'' was in poor taste, and very insensitive. I would''ve reacted the same way.
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And not just ANY plane, but "Airforce One" being ''chased'' by a fighter jet! Like I said before, if I had seen that sight, even if 9-11 never happened, I would have been freaked out quite a bit, wondering what the heck was going on!


I agree, this wasn''t just a plane flying by, it made several passes and was in a restricted air space area...not a normal thing at all.
 
Elle,
Thanks for articulating what I meant by "trigger" and "response" (I was dumbstruck by Butterfly''s replies).

Butterfly,
Do you have any idea how close the Statue is to downtown Manhattan?

All,
I don''t think there''s any point trying to reason with Butterfly anymore. We don''t need the additional aggravation.
 
Harriet
I''m a bit irritated that you feel the need to talk around me.... dragonfly.

I can see reason just fine, I''m offering another view point and what might be a healthy way to approach such panicked fear. But I''m not going to bother, as apparently I can''t be reasoned with. Oy.
 
Date: 4/30/2009 5:28:06 PM
Author: Harriet
Elle,
Thanks for articulating what I meant by 'trigger' and 'response' (I was dumbstruck by Butterfly's replies).

Butterfly,
Do you have any idea how close the Statue is to downtown Manhattan?

All,
I don't think there's any point trying to reason with Butterfly anymore. We don't need the additional aggravation.
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Or the fact that it is SHORTER than most of the buildings in Manhattan. It stands from ground to torch at only 305ft tall. That is not even HALf the height of the first 50 BUILDINGS on the list I linked below. (I stopped counting at 50, there were more...)

This site gives you a list of the tallest bulidings in NYC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_New_York_City

If this doesn't shine a little light on how low these planes were flying, and yes tey did go over the lower parts of Manhattan as well... then yes Harriet, you're right, there's no point.
Here is an image of something that is 300ft tall next to a city... imagine a 747, that is being followed by a fighter jet, flying over your head at that height, and then imagine watching them circle around TWO more times to do it again.

ETA: Dragonfly, it's not that you can't be reasoned with, a few people agreed that they would probably not yell and scream. We are just trying to show you that the people that were yelling and screaming, had a legitimate reason to do so. Like it was said above, if they are screaming at ANY plane that flies over, then yes they probably have an emotional issue, but this was not a random plane that was flying over.

300feet image.jpg
 
Mere-

Thanks for the visual aid. And thank you, too, for being able to be reasonable about this. BF has a lot of family members in NYC, and his sister sat on the top of her apartment building and watched on 9/11. I wasn''t able to post rationally, and I really appreciate you being able to do so. You made a lot of the points I tried to in the many posts I wrote and deleted, and you did so calmly. Thanks.
 
Butterfly,
I have addressed you repeatedly. Thus, I have not "talked around you." Moreover, I did not say that you cannot be reasoned with simpliciter. With that, I end my communication with you on at least this subject.

Meresal,
I'd like to echo Princess' appreciation of your input. :)
 
Dragonfly, you''d be singing a completely different tune if you had been in NYC with fighter jets and Air Force One flying that close over your head.
 
Date: 4/30/2009 3:37:52 PM
Author: dragonfly411
From the way the article sounds, the planes FLEW BY the statue of liberty several times. They didn''t FLY AT buildings. First of all.


I understand the difference between fear and action but that''s the thing. You FEAR being sideswiped... but do you go running every time a car drives by? no.


I FEAR the planes that fly low over our city, but I don''t run and throw myself into such a mass frenzy that I risk hurting someone or myself. If people are that afraid then they need to seek help, or PERHAPS the government could provide group sessions to help people to express their feelings and learn to cope with them. I understand that this really happened, but again, people should not live their lives in such an extreme state of fear that they panic when a plane flies by the buildings. Truly they shouldn''t HAVE to.
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Are you serious??? You don''t think the people who were in NYC for 9/11 have already sought help??? I''m a native NYer and eveyone I know that was in the city for 9/11 has been in counseling ever since. It''s ruined a close family friend''s life and he was one of the lucky ones that lived.

I just can''t believe the nerve of someone who wasn''t there, presumably has never been in a mass tragedy where thousands have died before your eyes, telling people how to act in a similar situation
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Date: 4/30/2009 5:28:06 PM
Author: Harriet
(I was dumbstruck by Butterfly's replies).

Butterfly,
Do you have any idea how close the Statue is to downtown Manhattan?

All,
with Butterfly anymore. We don't need the additional aggravation.
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Harriet, her name is Dragonfly.
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she even told you in her second post.


Dragonfly, I think it is understandable that people are afraid; that was wrong for them to have done that flying exercise. I don't blame them at all and my heart goes out to them because it probably brings back horrible memories.
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Dragonfly,
It was an honest mistake on my part and I was not "talking around" you.
 
Witness the aftermath of terror. While my heart bleeds for those who lost friends and family in 9/11, and I am among them, I can''t help but imagine other humans who live with these real threats and attacks every day. Those countries where war and planes and bombs are every day realities.
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Violence. I.hate.it.
 
I can''t imagine seeing that stunt. I would have been terrified for President Obama whose health and safety I pray for everyday.

The exchange here reminds me of the other thread here about "where were you when?" With my limited math skills I figure Dragonfly was around 13 when it happened, so she might not remember watching live the bodies of people who threw themselves out of the windows, watching the firefighters going into the second tower, the debris and tears, and later, the parking lots full of cars whose drivers would never collect them from the commuter lots. Some of us remember these things viscerally. Little things bring back those feelings in an instant, we aren''t handicapped by these emotions, but they are very real and very powerful.
 
Date: 5/2/2009 2:48:06 PM
Author: swimmer
I can''t imagine seeing that stunt. I would have been terrified for President Obama whose health and safety I pray for everyday.


The exchange here reminds me of the other thread here about ''where were you when?'' With my limited math skills I figure Dragonfly was around 13 when it happened, so she might not remember watching live the bodies of people who threw themselves out of the windows, watching the firefighters going into the second tower, the debris and tears, and later, the parking lots full of cars whose drivers would never collect them from the commuter lots. Some of us remember these things viscerally. Little things bring back those feelings in an instant, we aren''t handicapped by these emotions, but they are very real and very powerful.
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I think it''s more like 14/15, swimmer. I''m 22 and I was a sophomore in HS when it happened, so I was 15. And I remember....oh boy. Too much. It was 9-ish at night, and we got a phone call telling us to turn on the TV. I stayed glued to the TV until 6 AM when I started getting ready for school. We all did. BF and I were at an African art exhibit in Spain and an African artist tackled 9/11 from all angles....including inside the plane. I still get sick thinking about it. I honestly had to cover BF''s eyes like blinders on a horse and lead him out of there, he was so shaken up.
 
I was channel surfing and saw the tail end of a clip on this. By the time I found the channel again, to see what the hell was going on, they had moved on to another story. My heart sank as I was so worried it was another attack. I logged on to see what happened and was furious that it was 'authorised'. I felt for the natives who might have thought it was another attack.

...and I am all the way over here in Ireland.

I can't imagine how upsetting it would have been.
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As an aside (if you guys have case law on it- and I assume you would), would there be a case for negligently inflicted nervous shock for onlookers or relatives/friends of the onlookers? (Definition)
 
I watched 9/11 from my bed at 6 a.m. in California.

While I am not one of those who would be crying, yelling, or running out of the building (because I just don''t react to crisis like that) over this latest flyover, I certainly don''t judge those who did. Do I think they overreacted? Well, yeah. But there will always be some who are calm in crisis and some who panic. Unfortunately you have a whole city who is on the edge of panic. Once the first few overreacted I imagine it snowballed pretty quickly. Much like someone yelling fire, and then running. Others who were calmly exiting will start running in panic too. Why judge the people who were scared? Does it mean that the flyover was a good idea? I''m thinking....not.
 
Date: 5/2/2009 3:06:53 PM
Author: princesss
Date: 5/2/2009 2:48:06 PM

Author: swimmer

I can''t imagine seeing that stunt. I would have been terrified for President Obama whose health and safety I pray for everyday.



The exchange here reminds me of the other thread here about ''where were you when?'' With my limited math skills I figure Dragonfly was around 13 when it happened, so she might not remember watching live the bodies of people who threw themselves out of the windows, watching the firefighters going into the second tower, the debris and tears, and later, the parking lots full of cars whose drivers would never collect them from the commuter lots. Some of us remember these things viscerally. Little things bring back those feelings in an instant, we aren''t handicapped by these emotions, but they are very real and very powerful.
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I think it''s more like 14/15, swimmer. I''m 22 and I was a sophomore in HS when it happened, so I was 15.
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Ditto except I was a Freshman.
 
Is Dragonfly''s age relevant? Empathy does not require experience.
 
y''know folks - just a subsequent point....

whether right or wrong, whether she worded it well or badly, dragonfly expressed her valid opinion - which she had a right to do. yes, i know everyone else does also, but she expressed hers with less vitriol than was used, in general, in response to her. she''s also pretty young - 22. i don''t agree with her - i live in NY and my husband works on wall street and used to work in the WFC and i get the terror. but i also know inexperience and naivete when i see it, and i know that life will beat it out of dragonfly soon enough.

what i DO know is that she left pricescope after she made that last post and asked to be removed from the LIW list also.

i think when we express our opinions in ways which drive others away from a group which they have joined legitimately, we need to look at how we''re expressing ourselves. we can be ''right'' without being bullies.

i''ll miss her, and i think it''s a shame she left.
 
Whitby,
I''m sorry that Dragonfly felt compelled to leave. Yes, there were quite a number of angry responses, including mine. I can''t speak for the other members, but Dragonfly''s posts were hurtful in their callousness. To quote Hudson Hawk, I''m "over and out."
 
It''s too bad that Dragonfly felt the need to leave. However, I find it amazing that after making such inflammatory statements she seemed shocked by the level of hurt (which led to anger) many of us exhibited.

I think that had members been going after her for nothing more than a simple question, that could be considered bullying and some self-examination would be needed. However, she made callous statements about a tragedy many people are deeply emotionally invested in. If a person cannot handle the potential negative responses to a statement like that, perhaps that person ought not speak up in the first place. It is one thing to know that your viewpoint is controversial, and to be able to stand in the face of whatever reaction you receive. It is quite another to make sweeping, hurtful statements and cry "foul" when people react.
 
I have to disagree, Miss Whitby. I seriously doubt Dragonfly left because she felt forced out. Nobody was out of line in their response to her inflammatory posts. We''ve had bloodier battles over whether D or H color diamonds are nicer! It''s more likely she was very embarrassed by her behavior. I do hope she realized that her words were a slap to the face of so many who have been profoundly affected by 9/11. An apology for her insensitivity would have been in order.
 
Date: 5/2/2009 3:47:24 PM
Author: Steel
I was channel surfing and saw the tail end of a clip on this. By the time I found the channel again, to see what the hell was going on, they had moved on to another story. My heart sank as I was so worried it was another attack. I logged on to see what happened and was furious that it was ''authorised''. I felt for the natives who might have thought it was another attack.


...and I am all the way over here in Ireland.


I can''t imagine how upsetting it would have been.
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As an aside (if you guys have case law on it- and I assume you would), would there be a case for negligently inflicted nervous shock for onlookers or relatives/friends of the onlookers? (Definition)
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I was the same. I couldn''t believe when I heard that this was allowed. I can only imagine how scared they must have been running from the buildings. It''s just crazy that this was allowed happen.
 
I''ve been keeping an eye, mainly b/c I do love this forum. But I wanted to respond here real quick. I''m 23. I remember 9/11 quite well. I was deeply affected and had friends who lost family there. I don''t think I was being callous, but merely offering an opinion and a rather healthy option for those who experienced this. Again people SHOULD NOT HAVE to live a life of terror, and should NOT have to feel panicked by a plane. This is in sympathy with their emotion.

And no I''m not embarrassed by my behavior and I did apologize earlier to anyone who thought I was being insensitive. Yes I am leaving PS for a while and it is not because of one forum but because I repeatedly get flamed and have my ideas thrown out mainly b/c of my age and I''m tired of offering ideas only for others to knock me on them. It''s getting a big ridiculous really and I know there are others who agree with me that blind panic wasn''t a good answer for anyone in this instance. I do feel for those who experienced this and I do think it was in bad taste to do the fly by. But I do stand by my opinion. With that, I hope you guys enjoy your discussions, but I''ll no longer be taking part because again, I''m tired of offering opinions only to be shot down by senior members of this forum who think that they are always right. I might lurk some, but probably not much, as it leads to things like this where I have to read about people making assumptions when they don''t know the real deal. Adios amigos.
 
What ev. Another "goodbye cruel PriceScope" post. Heat, kitchen, adios all right.
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Sorry to see you go Dragonfly...
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Date: 5/4/2009 12:45:56 PM
Author: Miranda
I have to disagree, Miss Whitby. I seriously doubt Dragonfly left because she felt forced out. Nobody was out of line in their response to her inflammatory posts. We''ve had bloodier battles over whether D or H color diamonds are nicer! It''s more likely she was very embarrassed by her behavior. I do hope she realized that her words were a slap to the face of so many who have been profoundly affected by 9/11. An apology for her insensitivity would have been in order.
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Date: 5/4/2009 2:39:18 PM
Author: purrfectpear
What ev. Another ''goodbye cruel PriceScope'' post. Heat, kitchen, adios all right.
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I felt no need to comment on Dragonfly''s POV. But in light of Whitby''s post and Dragonfly''s confirmation I do agree with Miranda. PS posters are real men and women; warts and all. It says nowhere in the rules that we all have to agree. I''m sorry you felt bad, Dragonfly but I agree with PP.
 
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