KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help please?

[Laila619]

Hello oh wise ones!

I could really use your help with this. Here's the story: I have a FIC on my hands! It's a branded cut (Leo diamond). Here are the stats:

0.98 carat
6.23 x 6.27 x 3.99 mm
Table: 54.8
Depth: 64% (ouch)
Crown angle: 36.7
Crown height: 16.9%
Pavilion angle: 40.3
Pavilion depth: 42.2%
Lower girdle halves: 89%

Now, I've read that the Leo diamond has a set of 8 additional facets on the lower pavilion. I'm not sure what exactly that means, but I understand it contributes to its look. This stone is very fiery in person, and gives off lots of pretty colored flashes! The arrows are super skinny so it's more of a splintery look though.

I've debated about whether to re cut this stone or to leave it alone. My husband thinks the Leo look is really pretty and he likes FICs in general. Brian Gavin says he can re cut the diamond. After the re cut, it would be more of a TIC, since he's planning on having the crown angle be 34.5 and the pavilion 40.7. He would leave the small table as it is, and bring the depth down to about 62.2%. The estimated diameter would become 6.13 mm, or 0.87 carats. It's a mind clean thing, but to go from 0.98 to 0.87 hurts, even though I know it didn't face up like a 0.98 in the first place.

Long story short: My questions are: would you recut a branded stone? Is there any way to re cut it but still have it be a FIC? And what about the 8 additional facets on the lower pavilion? I'm assuming those would be gone. Is going from 6.27 mm to 6.13 mm in diameter a small loss, or is it significant?

What are your thoughts? Thank you very much!! I could use all the help I can with this decision.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Well, you didn't ask my (harumph) but I will answer anyways

I would recut, unless it is a sentimental stone as there is always a risk of loss. The loss of .13mm will not be apparent. I am not sure the effect of the extra facets on appearance, but the reason it looks splintery is this crazy number here: Lower girdle halves: 89%. I have never seen lgf that long! Wowza! Shortening those will chunk out the light return. You could perhaps ask Brian to tweak the cut to make it more in the FIC category, he is an expert and could probably figure out compatible angles. But he might not recommend it. I would probably opt for a nice TIC, most likely it would improve the optics (from what I have read about Leos).

Your bigger stone is a TIC style cut, right? Do you like its performance? Maybe you like you Leo already, you don't *need* to change it.

What is the clarity?

Have you seen an idealscope image of the stone?

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Well, you didn't ask my (harumph) but I will answer anyways

I would recut, unless it is a sentimental stone as there is always a risk of loss. The loss of .13mm will not be apparent. I am not sure the effect of the extra facets on appearance, but the reason it looks splintery is this crazy number here: Lower girdle halves: 89%. I have never seen lgf that long! Wowza! Shortening those will chunk out the light return. You could perhaps ask Brian to tweak the cut to make it more in the FIC category, he is an expert and could probably figure out compatible angles. But he might not recommend it. I would probably opt for a nice TIC, most likely it would improve the optics (from what I have read about Leos).

Your bigger stone is a TIC style cut, right? Do you like its performance? Maybe you like you Leo already, you don't *need* to change it.

What is the clarity?

Have you seen an idealscope image of the stone?

Hi miss Dreamer! Sorry, I ran out of room in the topic. You are the 'and other pros'!

Yes, my upgrade stone is a TIC. My thoughts: I think the Leo is more fiery, but the bigger stone is probably more balanced in a variety of lighting. The Leo look is really unique. It has a ton of colored flashes, but they're more splintery, almost like a princess cut? However, it's a very eye catching stone. It's always moving and flashing and winking.

My hub likes the look and thinks it's really cool. He thinks my TIC is nice too, but I know he prefers the look of the Leo.

Here is the idealscope image, taken by Mr. Brian himself. It really doesn't seem 'leaky' to me in person at all. I'm stumped as to what to do. I know Brian would make it a gorgeous stone, I have no doubts about that. But would I regret changing it so much and losing the uniqueness?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Brian has the stone in hand? The image looks computer generated not actual photography. Anyways, it looks pretty good to me. You seem to like the Leo, what is the motivation for a recut? Improving or changing its appearance?

I bet it does look like a princess with those long lgf and extra facets. Sounds neat to have two different cuts, personally.

What does Brian say about tweaking away from the traditional proportions?

 

[Karl_K]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

If you like it leave it, if not recut it.

he's planning on having the crown angle be 34.5 and the pavilion 40.7?? why?

I would either leave it alone or recut to something like 35.5-36 40.6 with 78% lgf.
It would be more balanced but retain the high crown.
Cutting that crown down to 34.5 seems almost like a sin to me.

Imho put it in a pendant and wear it proudly like it is.

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Dreamer, yes, Brian has the stone in hand. Does the idealscope look leaky to you? I still am not very good at reading idealscope images. Here are the ASET and actual diamond--photos taken by Brian. The ASET looks like a mess to me, but again I'm not great at interpreting them. My motivation for finding out about a re cut is mainly a mind clean thing. I'm resetting it, and I thought if I were going to spend money on a new setting, might as well check to see if the diamond could be improved. Before this, I had no knowledge about its cut, since there are no crown or pavilion angles on the cert (IGI).

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

If you like it leave it, if not recut it.

he's planning on having the crown angle be 34.5 and the pavilion 40.7?? why?

I would either leave it alone or recut to something like 35.5-36 40.6 with 78% lgf.
It would be more balanced but retain the high crown.
Cutting that crown down to 34.5 seems almost like a sin to me.

Imho put it in a pendant and wear it proudly like it is.

Thanks, Karl!

What do you think of the images? Are they showing a lot of leakage or obstruction? The stone can look darkish at times; I'm wondering if it's obstruction due to the shallow pav?

Do you think going from 6.27 mm in diameter to 6.13 mm is a minor loss overall?

 

[Rhino]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

I don't think I'd touch the Leo. .98ct is a tough size. 40.3 pavilion angles don't generally thrill me but if I had to choose between steep crown, shallow pavilion vs steep crown, deep pavilion I'd take the former any day and and with the ultra long lower halves of the Leo it sounds like a really good optical combo so I wouldn't touch it unless you absolutely abhorred it.

Since you have both why not just enjoy both?

 

[Karl_K]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

What do you think of the images? Are they showing a lot of leakage or obstruction? The stone can look darkish at times; I'm wondering if it's obstruction due to the shallow pav?

Do you think going from 6.27 mm in diameter to 6.13 mm is a minor loss overall?

Those are computer generated images based on a sarin scan. It looks like the scanner missed on the extra facets and the images are not a good representation.
.14mm is apparent side by side but by itself not huge.

Why I suggested a pendant is those angles would rock in one.

 

[Rhino]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Hi Laila,

The ASET on it is just fine and what I was guessing. Also what Karl is saying is right on too. Personally I'd just leave it alone.

Also, these are not actual photographs. They are computer generated but may actually be computer generated images of the diamond itself based on its scan. What I don't quite get about the images is I had thought Leo's had 12 or 16 mains on the pavilion and not 8?

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Hi Laila,

The ASET on it is just fine and what I was guessing. Also what Karl is saying is right on too. Personally I'd just leave it alone.

Also, these are not actual photographs. They are computer generated but may actually be computer generated images of the diamond itself based on its scan. What I don't quite get about the images is I had thought Leo's had 12 or 16 mains on the pavilion and not 8?

Hi Rhino! Thank you for your reply!

All I know is that I was told Leos have 8 additional pavilion facets. Is that the same thing as what you mentioned, 12 or 16 mains on the pavilion? Sorry, I still have lots to learn and don't know much more beyond crown and pavilion angles/combos.

Hmm, so you would leave it alone? That's what my husband wants to do.

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Rhino, Karl, Dreamer...

I had another thought. I've had this diamond in a number of engagement ring settings (at least 5 now, lol ). In some settings, it looked bright, sparkly, and lively. In others, it looked darkish (like gray/kind of drab) and not as lively. I'm wondering if this is the kind of stone that leaks light out the bottom and so it would benefit from an open setting that allows more light to enter the pavilion? That's the only reason I could think of as to why it looked nice and bright in some settings but not others.

Karl, for sentimental reasons, we'll probably end up leaving it in an e-ring setting, and not turning it into a pendant, although it's a great idea! Just curiously, why is an FIC the best type of stone for a pendant?

 

[Rhino]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Hi Laila,

The ASET on it is just fine and what I was guessing. Also what Karl is saying is right on too. Personally I'd just leave it alone.

Also, these are not actual photographs. They are computer generated but may actually be computer generated images of the diamond itself based on its scan. What I don't quite get about the images is I had thought Leo's had 12 or 16 mains on the pavilion and not 8?

Hi Rhino! Thank you for your reply!

All I know is that I was told Leos have 8 additional pavilion facets. Is that the same thing as what you mentioned, 12 or 16 mains on the pavilion? Sorry, I still have lots to learn and don't know much more beyond crown and pavilion angles/combos.

Hmm, so you would leave it alone? That's what my husband wants to do.

Hi Laila,

You are very welcome! Yep ... that's exactly what I'm talking about. They have 8 additional facets on the pavilion (16 pavilion mains as opposed to . I just didn't see those mains in the generated images you posted but as Karl pointed out its likely that Brian's scanner didn't pick up the 8 additional mains. And yep ... your husbands suggestion is the best. Viva la variety.

If you ever do want to change that diamond, perhaps you should consider selling/consigning it, getting the value you would from a .98ct and then put those funds towards another or something else. My .02c

All the best,

 

[Rhino]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Rhino, Karl, Dreamer...

I had another thought. I've had this diamond in a number of engagement ring settings (at least 5 now, lol ). In some settings, it looked bright, sparkly, and lively. In others, it looked darkish (like gray/kind of drab) and not as lively. I'm wondering if this is the kind of stone that leaks light out the bottom and so it would benefit from an open setting that allows more light to enter the pavilion? That's the only reason I could think of as to why it looked nice and bright in some settings but not others.

Karl, for sentimental reasons, we'll probably end up leaving it in an e-ring setting, and not turning it into a pendant, although it's a great idea! Just curiously, why is an FIC the best type of stone for a pendant?

Because FIC's have shallow pavilion angles and are generally more prone to head/body shadows in an ering than in a pendant. And yes ... I'd keep it in an open setting to allow light from the bottom too.

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Thanks for the info, Rhino.

Another thought I had was maybe the diamond sometimes looks a bit dull because it only has 'good' polish. I've read that a diamond should have at least 'very good' or better polish for maximum light and brightness. I'm wondering if Brian could maybe improve the polish to 'very good.' I'll have to ask.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

I don't think polish matters like that, but maybe someone else knows better. Most likely it is dirtier in some setting or another, maybe the pavilion is harder to clean depending on the mount?

 

[Gypsy]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Laila, what is it that you don't like about that stone? What bothers you? If we knew your goal, perhaps it would be easier to advise you?

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Laila, what is it that you don't like about that stone? What bothers you? If we knew your goal, perhaps it would be easier to advise you?

Hi Gypsy,

The things I don't like are that at times (and in some ring settings) the stone can look a bit dark and a bit drab, as though it's foggy and needs to be cleaned. I understand that with a FIC, brilliance and white light are sacrificed. I like the stone when it's behaving and looking fiery.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Laila, what is it that you don't like about that stone? What bothers you? If we knew your goal, perhaps it would be easier to advise you?

Hi Gypsy,

The things I don't like are that at times (and in some ring settings) the stone can look a bit dark and a bit drab, as though it's foggy and needs to be cleaned. I understand that with a FIC, brilliance and white light are sacrificed. I like the stone when it's behaving and looking fiery.

And you only want it for a ring stone?

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Laila, what is it that you don't like about that stone? What bothers you? If we knew your goal, perhaps it would be easier to advise you?

Hi Gypsy,

The things I don't like are that at times (and in some ring settings) the stone can look a bit dark and a bit drab, as though it's foggy and needs to be cleaned. I understand that with a FIC, brilliance and white light are sacrificed. I like the stone when it's behaving and looking fiery.

And you only want it for a ring stone?

Yes, my hub still would like me to wear it as an e-ring on occasion (I just switch up my two sets).

When I sent it to Brian, I had no idea about the cut quality. If I found out it was a steep deep, it would be a no brainer--re cut all the way! But since it's not, and it's just a round of a different 'flavor' if you will, I'm not sure if I recut or leave well enough alone.

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Bumping for Yssie...hopefully you're around Yssie!

I think I've decided to leave it be. Brian says that if it ends up less than .90 carats (which is a distinct possibility), it will fall into a lower price per carat bracket. I only wish hub had found Pricescope before he proposed, but oh well. I have to enjoy the stone for what it is.

 

[JulieN]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

No, I don't think I'd touch it.

 

[yssie]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Hey, I missed this thread! Looks like you've got tons of help from the real experts though


I'm glad you've decided to leave it be. It must be a very interesting stone IRL - I wish I could see it! Plus, if we're talking about value, in addition to the size loss the Leo branding is worth more than a generic RB - I'd guess worth more than the premium the DQD AGS0 commands too, if the result merits the grade, though I don't know enough to make any wagers on that.


Like Karl said - I would keep that crown just the way it is! It's a really interesting combination - you've got the super high, and thanks to the smaller table *spready* crown that will let all outgoing dispersions have their own bubbles in space, comparatively little 'recombining' of intersecting output dispersions into white. But then you've got the super busy pavilion that's splitting incident rays into lots of smaller lower-energy rays that just can't help but run into each other given the multitude of similarly-angled pav facets, and so you're not letting the giant rays that would create those big rolling flashes of colour form in the first place...


I definitely noticed my own old 57facet 55t/36c/40.5p(80lgf) was just *darker* than other stones of different proportions. It was never a bright white dot like my shallower types, so I see what you're saying. Regarding fogginess - would blame a dirty crown, or maybe inclusions, or girdle artifacts that are getting reflected around inside? Dirt on the shallow pav should influence light return less than on a stone w/ steeper pav... This thread goes into that: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/shallow-looks-better-when-dirty-shy.23192/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/shallow-looks-better-when-dirty-shy.23192/[/URL] and Garry's stud experiment in this thread is really neat [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/simple-science-is-shallow-or-deep-better.44007/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/simple-science-is-shallow-or-deep-better.44007/[/URL]


Anyway, I'm getting distracted. I want to see this stone! Can you post some closeups for us when you get it back? Or maybe BGD would be willing to do a video comparing it and one of their signature stones of similar size?


Edit - oh, I found this in my pics

 

[Laila619]

Re: KarlK, Stone cold, Yssie and other pros...FIC help pleas

Thank you for the feedback, JulieN!

I definitely noticed my own old 57facet 55t/36c/40.5p(80lgf) was just *darker* than other stones of different proportions. It was never a bright white dot like my shallower types, so I see what you're saying.

Yssie, thanks, that's it exactly! I'll try to take some good photos when it comes back to me. Unfortunately, based on past experience, it photographs like junk. It looks so much prettier in person! I'm thinking when I try to photograph it, obstruction from my head/body/camera makes it go dark.