Karl...This Is What You Said Would Happen At Your Church

[AGBF]

Karl, this is what you said would happen at your church if a stranger opened fire.

"WHITE SETTLEMENT, Texas — A gunman opened fire at a church in Texas on Sunday morning, killing two people with a shotgun before a member of the church’s volunteer security team fatally shot him, the authorities said.
About 250 people were inside the auditorium of the West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement, near Fort Worth, when the gunman began shooting just before communion, said Jack Cummings, a minister at the church.
Mr. Cummings said the gunman was 'acting suspiciously' before the shooting and drew the attention of the church’s security team. The team, he said, has existed for at least 10 years and is made up of members of the church’s congregation who are licensed to carry firearms and practice shooting regularly.
'They saved a lot of lives today,' Mr. Cummings said. 'Because this thing would have been a massacre otherwise.'"

Shooting at Texas Church Leaves 2 Parishioners Dead, Officials Say (Published 2019)

A security member at the West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement, Texas, fatally shot the gunman.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Karl_K]

Yes, it is what would happen.
How did he get a shotgun past them in Texas in the first place?
I could see it under a coat maybe in the cold north but in Texas?

 

[redwood66]

The security team member gave his life to protect his fellow congregants. Thank goodness they have one.
I wonder the same @Karl_K.

 

[distracts]

This is SUCH a White Settlement story.

Yes, it is what would happen.
How did he get a shotgun past them in Texas in the first place?
I could see it under a coat maybe in the cold north but in Texas?

IT IS COLD ENOUGH IN TEXAS FOR HUGE COATS

IT IS BELOW 80F, KARL, WE ARE FREEZING DOWN HERE

 

[distracts]

The security team member gave his life to protect his fellow congregants. Thank goodness they have one.
I wonder the same @Karl_K.

I don't believe the security team member was even harmed, much less killed? The deacon and another congregant were killed.

 

[Vera W]

This is very sad, however I am Thankful for those who do carry and will protect others. In the end it looks like about 4-6 people were ready to shoot. At my church, membership of about 1300, we have about 40% of people carrying and a lot of them go to the gun range to practice together. We do have a lot of Law enforcement personal that attend. My younger son open carries all the time, since that is allowed in Texas. He is a Correctional Officer, so I can always feel safe around him. May God bless those who need His healing and protection.

 

[AGBF]

Vera W. wrote: "May God bless those who need His healing and protection."

I agree and I would like to add,

May God bless all people of good faith.

 

[redwood66]

I don't believe the security team member was even harmed, much less killed? The deacon and another congregant were killed.

The article says:

A member of the security team was killed in the attack, he said.

I'm sure it wasn't the one who shot the gunman. I have watched the video and it appears he shot people who were standing to the side.

 

[distracts]

The article says:

A member of the security team was killed in the attack, he said.

I'm sure it wasn't the one who shot the gunman. I have watched the video and it appears he shot people who were standing to the side.

Oh, the article I read didn't mention that one of the parishioners killed was on the security team.

 

[OoohShiny]

As a UK dweller, I've always wondered... once the shooting starts in a public place, and people start pulling guns in defence and shooting back, who knows who the bad guy is? What if they only see the good guys and think they are the bad guy(s)??

 

[distracts]

As a UK dweller, I've always wondered... once the shooting starts in a public place, and people start pulling guns in defence and shooting back, who knows who the bad guy is? What if they only see the good guys and think they are the bad guy(s)??

*manic laughter*

We just hope that problem doesn't come up.

 

[Karl_K]

As a UK dweller, I've always wondered... once the shooting starts in a public place, and people start pulling guns in defence and shooting back, who knows who the bad guy is? What if they only see the good guys and think they are the bad guy(s)??

Doesn't seem to happen but it could.
There are specific things ccw holders and cops are trained to do.
For example: holster as soon as the threat is over, do not stand around with a gun in your hand if your not an uniformed officer.
Have someone call 911 and inform them.
Send someone to notify the police as they arrive what is happening if the threat is over.
Hands in plain sight with no weapons in them.
Follow all orders of law enforcement without argument, sort it out later.

 

[AGBF]

I just saw that the shooting occurred in Fort Worth. My great-nephew lives in Richardson. He was here just a few days ago for Christmas. I bet he is getting hysterical e-mails from his family, who do not live in the United States. Flooding and hurricanes in Texas tend to worry them, In this case he was only about 15 miles away.

 

[kenny]

As a UK dweller, I've always wondered... once the shooting starts in a public place, and people start pulling guns in defence and shooting back, who knows who the bad guy is? What if they only see the good guys and think they are the bad guy(s)??

The good guys wear white clothes, and the bad guys dark clothes.
Don't you watch movies?

Seriously, this endless shit makes me wish USA had Britain's gun control.

 

[AGBF]

Seriously, this endless shit makes me wish USA had Britain's gun control.

Yes. And also a less angry male population with something or some things that restrained them from taking out this ultimate aggression on other members of their community. Other societies provide outlets (the UK appears to provide soccer "football"matches) to allow men a way to let each others' blood.

 

[Bron357]

Yes, that’s always my worry.
It’s one thing to know “how” to shoot a gun, it’s another matter entirely to know “when”.
these incidents can happen in seconds, if 10 or more people who are carrying guns suddenly pull them out and look around, how do they know for certain which one of the people holding a gun IS the shooter ?
i just think it would be alot simpler if no ordinary person was allowed to carry guns without proper reason and acquiring a gun extremely difficult and onerous. That won’t stop ALL the shootings or murders but it will significantly reduce them. The big problem is If you carry or own a gun and someone seriously pisses you off or you get really drunk and stupid or really angry............

 

[Wewechew]

Dallas PD and violence is a nightmare here. As of right now, concealed carry people have a better batting average at bringing down the bad guy when they draw their guns. We have had two instances of a police officers shooting and killing innocent people in their own homes in the last year.

I want to add, I do back the Blue. I blame the city for what’s happened to our police department over the last five years.

 

[Wewechew]

Oh, the article I read didn't mention that one of the parishioners killed was on the security team.

The guy who got killed, and the guy who killed the shooter, were next to each other and drawing at the same time to shoot the guy. The shooter killed the one security guy as the other security guy killed the shooter. (Sorry, that’s hard to follow without names).

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Everyone, regardless of religion, should be safe in a place of worship
This is so sad
Prayers for the people who gave their lives to protect others and the other victims and their families

 

[missy]

As a UK dweller, I've always wondered... once the shooting starts in a public place, and people start pulling guns in defence and shooting back, who knows who the bad guy is? What if they only see the good guys and think they are the bad guy(s)??

Yup. It can get confusing for the experts let alone civilians.

The good guys wear white clothes, and the bad guys dark clothes.
Don't you watch movies?

Seriously, this endless shit makes me wish USA had Britain's gun control.

Yup.

Yes, that’s always my worry.
It’s one thing to know “how” to shoot a gun, it’s another matter entirely to know “when”.
these incidents can happen in seconds, if 10 or more people who are carrying guns suddenly pull them out and look around, how do they know for certain which one of the people holding a gun IS the shooter ?
i just think it would be alot simpler if no ordinary person was allowed to carry guns without proper reason and acquiring a gun extremely difficult and onerous. That won’t stop ALL the shootings or murders but it will significantly reduce them. The big problem is If you carry or own a gun and someone seriously pisses you off or you get really drunk and stupid or really angry............

Yup.

While there are no easy answers what we have in place now isn't working IMO. I know we cannot compare the USA to other countries as there are so many people here but sometimes it feels like a free for all and I cannot imagine living in a state where the majority of people carry concealed weapons. I mean, even skilled weapon holders (ie police officers, military) make mistakes (friendly fire) and civilians are so much less skilled in handling these situations. IDK the answer but I don't feel what we have now is working well.

Sure there are instances like the above where civilians save many others from a gunman situation (thank goodness it went down that way) but there are many more instances where it doesn't work out. Sometimes it feels like the wild wild west when I read the news.

 

[Karl_K]

I mean, even skilled weapon holders (ie police officers, military) make mistakes (friendly fire) and civilians are so much less skilled in handling these situations.

Civilians have a better record of getting it right than law enforcement.
So as much as people fret and worry it does not seem to happen.

 

[Karl_K]

but there are many more instances where it doesn't work out.

Source?
In a quick search I could not find one instance of a ccw holder getting it wrong in a self defense situation with good guys shooting each other.
I did find dozen of cases where police officers shot each other.

 

[distracts]

Dallas PD and violence is a nightmare here. As of right now, concealed carry people have a better batting average at bringing down the bad guy when they draw their guns. We have had two instances of a police officers shooting and killing innocent people in their own homes in the last year.

I want to add, I do back the Blue. I blame the city for what’s happened to our police department over the last five years.

the crazy thing for me is that Florida UPS truck heist debacle - cops were using MULTIPLE cars with people in them as shields to shoot at the truck, ended up killing the driver with "friendly fire," as well as another bystander. Would have been much, much better and safer to follow from a helicopter and pin the hijacker down when they weren't surrounded by cars with filled with civilians, and the only person at risk was the hostage.

Unfortunately it's not just DPD, it's police most places... from what I hear from former police trainers, there's been a change in culture for the worse. Wanting police officers to be properly trained and held accountable for mistakes isn't not supporting them, it's helping them be better for their purpose. I also think we are hearing about it more in the past 5 years because of the ubiquity of cameras and social media.

 

[missy]

Source?
In a quick search I could not find one instance of a ccw holder getting it wrong in a self defense situation with good guys shooting each other.
I did find dozen of cases where police officers shot each other.

Part of the reason is because there are more police officers with guns so they have a much higher chance of getting wounded or wounding someone accidentally.

I don't have any sources to share but I know there has to be a better way than civilians having to defend themselves. Unless every civilian has to go through intensive training. That would be a good thing to institute. And if controls were stricter re who is allowed to carry guns. I will add thank goodness for the civilians in that Church. They saved many people that day. But I wish we had a culture of more peace, less violence and less guns in general. I look at other countries, and while I know we cannot make a direct comparison, it is a gentler way of life not having to have people armed everywhere.

I know we have to deal with reality. But the reality is the whole situation sucks. We have to worry for our kids lives because of gun violence in school. Mass shootings almost every week it seems. I feel for the next generation and the generation after that. I hope there is a better way and that the younger generation can make it happen. They deserve better than this. We all do.

An interesting link.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

More firearms do not keep people safe, hard numbers show. Why do so many Americans believe the opposite?

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Karl_K]

An interesting link.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

More firearms do not keep people safe, hard numbers show. Why do so many Americans believe the opposite?

www.scientificamerican.com

I stopped reading when it got to the old bs about owning a gun make you 2x as likely to be murdered.
They cite a study that studied 15 other studies. That is laughably ridicules.
Fact is that I dont need a study, because I have used a firearm 2 times to prevent a crime against me or my family.
One was a home invasion/burglary.
Thankfully I did not have to fire a shot because they decided to take off when confronted.

 

[missy]

I stopped reading when it got to the old bs about owning a gun make you 2x as likely to be murdered.
They cite a study that studied 15 other studies. That is laughably ridicules.
Fact is that I dont need a study, because I have used a firearm 2 times to prevent a crime against me or my family.
One was a home invasion/burglary.
Thankfully I did not have to fire a shot because they decided to take off when confronted.

Karl, I am glad you know how to use a gun and know when not to use it. There are many people not as calm and wise. Where we live I hear about road rage every day. I shudder to think what would happen if they were allowed to carry guns. I do not wish to get into a fight with you. I am calmly sharing my thoughts with you. Guns in the right hands are good and provide protection. Guns in the wrong hands are tragic. :/

ETA: I am glad you were able to fend off a home invasion and not have to use your weapon. Scary indeed and in that situation you were fortunate to have your gun. I agree. But one cannot accurately extrapolate from an individual's experience to that of the rest of humanity. Too many variables. All you can say is it works for you.

 

[Karl_K]

Karl, I am glad you know how to use a gun and know when not to use it. There are many people not as calm and wise. Where we live I hear about road rage every day. I shudder to think what would happen if they were allowed to carry guns. I do not wish to get into a fight with you. I am calmly sharing my thoughts with you. Guns in the right hands are good and provide protection. Guns in the wrong hands are tragic. :/

ETA: I am glad you were able to fend off a home invasion and not have to use your weapon. Scary indeed and in that situation you were fortunate to have your gun. I agree.

Yikes reading back it does sound like I'm looking for a fight about this.
Honestly I'm not, I just get a little passionate about it.
I respect your opinions on this.
I too wish for a world where crime does not happen and people do not need to defend themselves... and keep the right to own guns for hunting, sports ,and recreation but not need them for defense.
Sadly that world does not exist.

 

[missy]

Yikes reading back it does sound like I'm looking for a fight about this.
Honestly I'm not, I just get a little passionate about it.
I respect your opinions on this.
I too wish for a world where crime does not happen and people do not need to defend themselves... and keep the right to own guns for hunting, sports ,and recreation but not need them for defense.
Sadly that world does not exist.

Thanks Karl. I agree. What a world we live in and I just hope one day there is a better way. And FWIW I see both sides and respect your opinion as well.

 

[Wewechew]

the crazy thing for me is that Florida UPS truck heist debacle - cops were using MULTIPLE cars with people in them as shields to shoot at the truck, ended up killing the driver with "friendly fire," as well as another bystander. Would have been much, much better and safer to follow from a helicopter and pin the hijacker down when they weren't surrounded by cars with filled with civilians, and the only person at risk was the hostage.

Unfortunately it's not just DPD, it's police most places... from what I hear from former police trainers, there's been a change in culture for the worse. Wanting police officers to be properly trained and held accountable for mistakes isn't not supporting them, it's helping them be better for their purpose. I also think we are hearing about it more in the past 5 years because of the ubiquity of cameras and social media.

Don’t even get me started on the Florida incident.

Five years ago is also about when the pension issue for the police came up, among other issues in/around the department.

 

[GliderPoss]

“church’s volunteer security team”

This sentence literally makes me shiver... how sad is it that this even exists?