shape
carat
color
clarity

Just bought a radiant engagement ring

vince187

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Messages
28
Long story follows, but I just bought a radiant cut diamond via Internet, which is exactly what everyone says not to do. I know I should see this in person, and I will have some time to view (and possibly exchange) the ring before I propose, so I mainly looking for ideas on how to make that decision.

I posted on here a while back, but mostly have been lurking. I am a 'techie' so I am obsessed with details on large purchases.

Anyhow, my girlfriend kept me up past 1am again last night talking about how our lives aren't going anywhere, wondering when we are getting married, and all. I was hoping to wait a while longer before getting engaged. She can't move in (mostly her job situation, but also the condition of my house), and there is no point (in my mind) paying interest on a ring you don't need yet when that money can go into the house or towards a better ring later. But lacking the sound judgement I'd have on a sound night of sleep, today I finally ordered a ring from Abazias.


Criteria:

Size: By far her most important factor, with anything less than 2 carats being looked at the same way as if I got her a CZ (at least we can say we're engaged, maybe we can afford a real ring someday).

Clarity: SI1, she doesn't mind small flaws if she can have a larger stone.

Cut: She told me Radiant, Cushion, Emerald, Asscher, Princess, and maybe Round are acceptable. She turned down another proposal before, she says because of who it was that proposed, but she remembers she didn't like the ring. The fact it was a traditional round cut is what she remembers most. She has since said round is acceptable, but thought I'd avoid it. I didn't want Emerald or Asscher given my budget and her saying clarity isn't that important. I didn't want princess, I don't like them myself, and worry the corners will chip.

Color: She wanted something unique, so I tried to steer her towards YZ/fancy but she hated the idea. She says she doesn't like yellow, but looking at an 'M' versus a 'D' she says she doesn't mind the color if she can have a larger stone.

Setting: Must be white gold, she really wanted a halo ring, but given the size requirement of the center stone and my budget, I didn't feel that was a good option. Bulky, gaudy and almost cocktail ring is what she wanted. I got the cheapest 'nice' setting with some bulk and side stones. I also wanted to avoid fancy details, as she hates patina (I avoided platinum setting for the same reason). Someday maybe we will upgrade the setting and keep the stone.

Fluorescence: Strong Blue, to maximize uniqueness and possibly size/price/yellowness. I personally really like the blue color of fluorescence diamonds. I'd be fine with faint fluorescence, but feel something was missing with no fluorescence.

Lab: UGS, based on comments I've read, this is small price advantage in the current market. The market tends to price all sub-GIA labs the same, but EGL-USA grades better than the others. I also don't like how the GIA reports leave off important measurements I get on the EGL reports.

Proportions:
Depth 72.9%
Table 59%
Crown 11.7%
Pavilion 51.3%

I know this is way too deep, but otherwise I like the proportions. You don't get a consistent pavilion angle anyway with the fancy cuts, and the face size isn't really that much larger with the ideal 63% depth. Lots of the radiants online have weird proportions, tiny crown %, huge tables, etc. Removing those gives me very few choices, since I don't have many to choose from to start with.

Report:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/EGL.jpg
 
As a mathematician, I find the radiant (and emerald) grading reports weird and misleading. What matters for light reflection is crown and pavilion angles. For radiants, depth is the shortest of length or width / height. If we are looking for the same crown and pavilion angles as the round ideal (depth 58.5% - 62%), that means the length of the side with the angle must be 58.5%-62% of the height. If our diamond isn't square, then a given depth for our width gives ideal angles, then length is not ideal (or vice versa). They are both important, but they can't both be ideal. Instead of reporting both numbers, the report uses the smaller dimension, which is the least important since the facets under it are smaller.

So rather than looking at depth = 60.0% - 63.0 as even a rough estimate, we should be looking at length / height = 58.5%-62% and width / height = 58.5%-62%, with the smaller number being more important. What people are doing actually isn't too far off for radiants that are almost (but not quite) square. For radiants that are more square, it will guide people to too deep a diamond. For radiants that are less square, it will guide people too shallow.

Of course, this only works if the crown % is ideal (12.3%-14.4% I believe). A smaller crown % means we need a deeper diamond to give the same pavilion angles. I find it unbelievable that the leading rating lab (GIA) doesn't even include crown % or a way to calculate it.

No wonder everyone says you can't use the numbers. I believe you can use the numbers (at least on the EGL report) but you need advanced trig.

So for my diamond, both numbers are 57.6% (which is actually a little too small) and the 72.9% (still way too big) that they gave me. My crown is a little small (compared to the idea, much better than most EGL radiants online), so a deeper diamond makes sense. I didn't actually calculate the crown / pavilion angles yet, but will post them once I have time.
 
Are you looking for reassurance or for help finding other options? If the latter, what is your budget? Honestly, I think it's peculiar that you decided for her that a halo would be a bad idea even though it's what she wanted. Beverly K and Gabriel NY both have good quality halos for reasonable prices. Also, I would not buy an EGL stone. Their grading is inflated and you really don't know what you're getting or whether the price you're paying is fair (likely not). I think an ASET would be more helpful than numbers as a lay person who hasn't studied trig in years.

ETA: Have you seen this cut class chart yet? Perhaps you might find it helpful. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/radiant-cut-diamond

ETA #2: While GIA does not provide the numbers that you are after, AGS does and is a reputable lab that grades consistently.
 
Are you looking for reassurance or for help finding other options?
No. I may have posted some other things, but I am mainly looking for how to evaluate the diamond and decide whether to keep or send it back once I physically have it.

Honestly, I think it's peculiar that you decided for her that a halo would be a bad idea even though it's what she wanted. Beverly K and Gabriel NY both have good quality halos for reasonable prices.
Where I can get a well made halo with a 2+ carat center stone under $10,000? Better to buy a cheap setting with the option of upgrading later. A 2+ carat center stone halo is a very large ring, and an unusual choice - she might want one now, but even if I could afford it, would she want to wear it every day the rest of her life?

Also, I would not buy an EGL stone. Their grading is inflated and you really don't know what you're getting or whether the price you're paying is fair (likely not).
As I posted, you take a huge risk buying a radiant on cut sight unseen without the crown % which isn't in the GIA reports. I think the price will be fair even if I won't get as nice of a stone as a GIA K SI1 since I will pay less. The looser grading is mostly priced into the market. If EGL graded stones usually sold for more money, no one would send stones to GIA.

I think an ASET would be more helpful than numbers as a lay person who hasn't studied trig in years.
Probably, I appreciate them when they are available, but not even one of the radiants currently on pricescope includes one.

Estimated Time of Arrival? Probably about 2 weeks.

Have you seen this cut class chart yet?
Yes

I found it misleading.

While GIA does not provide the numbers that you are after, AGS does and is a reputable lab that grades consistently.
AGS also has the best report for radiants. AGS also has a total of 19 radiants on pricescope above 2 carats, all above my budget. Compare this to 2731 GIA radiants and 675 "other" radiants which are mostly EGL.
 
In that case, it sounds like you made the best out of your budget. Good luck!
 
Your right, it's very difficult to purchase a fancy shaped diamond without having images or seeing the stone. This is exactly why most PSers suggest vendors such as JA, whiteflash, brian gavin diamonds and good old gold. They all offer the additional information that you need to make a good informed choice when buying online. Having chose a vendor that doesn't offer these additional tools, does make things more complicated, so I can appreciate your frustration.

I do disagree with about lab grading and how it relates to the market price of the stone. You may have seen this thread but I'll link it in case you haven't.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thers-something-about-paper-why-arent-you-mad.176233/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thers-something-about-paper-why-arent-you-mad.176233/[/URL]

It explains much better than I could in this short post why I disagree with you. However, what's really important is that you/she gets a diamond that you think is beautiful and that you feel you paid a fair price for. Since this is an EGL stone though, I would recommend that you have it independently appraised (not by a jeweler) you will need to do this anyway for insurance purposes, and then compare that information to comparable stones online to see if you did in fact pay a fair price. If you did and you love the stone. Great! If not than you have a return policy and can return it and start again. Good Luck! =)
 
Just another thought, you could ask for a sarin report an any GIA stone from many online vendors, this will include all the measurements that you are looking for. These may open up many more options for you if your doing your shopping based on the reports alone.
 
I don't want to steer this thread completely towards grading, but I hadn't read

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thers-something-about-paper-why-arent-you-mad.176233/

and found it interesting. It is a much more negative way to look at it, but pretty much agrees with my point that the softer grading has been priced in to the market. If this continues, the price and grade disparity will keep getting worse and eventually the 3rd tier labs will go out of business since everyone at all levels will know a diamond certified with them is essentially ungraded. I don't think we are near that point yet, even with EGL Israel (I don't mind picking on them by name, since I feel it is deserved).

Color is funny, since the price difference is huge from D-J but the color difference is barely noticeable. Then the price goes down slower, and then up dramatically. Suppose the cheapest 2.5 carat eye clean GIA diamond at any color (probably M) costs $10k. If I see an eye clean EGL Israel 'J' for $8k, I know it is a bargain - I don't know what color it really is, but it doesn't matter. Conversely, if getting a D color is most important, I would never look outside GIA/AGL. If someone was dumb enough to send a diamond GIA would grade a 'D' to EGL Israel, it would certainly be a bargain. They can't give it a better grade than 'D' since there isn't one. But without being able to tell the difference (I can't do it visually), I am much more likely to get a diamond GIA would grade a 'J' or worse.

So essentially, I am saying you get what you pay for, but the worse the lab, the bigger the chance of finding a bargain (especially in the lower grades) or getting ripped off (especially in the higher grades), with GIA and AGL being the safer choice.
 
BTW - EGL USA does include crown and pavilion angles on their website:
Crown Angle 34.5°
Pavilion Angle 35.8°

Unfortunately, they only include 1 set, not both, so I still have to do the math and will post later.
 
By my calculations I get 29.535 crown and 44.2648 for the short side and 24.128 and 39.045 for the long side. So I don't know where EGL USA is getting their numbers - one of us is way off, enough to see in a picture of the diamond.
 
Now I am really confused. I got a 'medium girdle' but 72.9 - 51.3 - 11.7 = 9.9! Either my medium girdle is size of my crown, or I am making a huge mistake.
 
PriceScope is a consumer forum fueled by mostly lay people (enthusiasts) and a few tradespeople. The mantra here is 1) buy stones with GIA/AGS reports, 2) you cannot judge fancies by numbers, and 3) ASETs are far more useful. This is not to say the method in which you are going about all of this is wrong, but that if you're looking for someone to help you analyze your purchase via numbers, I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree. As a lay person, I can read ASETs just fine, but synthesizing depth percentages and crown angles is beyond my capabilities. :sick:
 
Just take good macro photos of the thing when it arrives and post them here for opinions on whether or not to keep it. You could also buy your own ASET kit for $93: http://www.datlas.com/tools.htm

I disagree with you about the lab grading issue. The problem with EGL or basically any non-GIA or AGS certed stone is that you really have no idea what you are getting in terms of color, clarity, etc. so there is no way to compare with a GIA or AGS stone as a comp. Maybe all the angles and numbers mean something to you, but they don't to most people, and most people are looking for the most visually appealing, bright, sparkly diamond they can find, not the one with the best angles or numbers associated with it. That is why PSers recommend having photos at minimum, let alone ASET or other measurements, for fancy cuts.

I also find it kind of sad that you said your girlfriend thinks anything less than 2 carats is basically junk. As the proud wearer of a half carat stone, I didn't get engaged to my now-husband because of the diamond he bought me. Honestly, he could have given me a twisty-tie and I would have said yes.
 
PriceScope is a consumer forum fueled by mostly lay people (enthusiasts) and a few tradespeople.
I'm a layperson (as far as diamonds go). Maybe being a math geek with no fashion sense makes me different from the typical consumer on here.

The mantra here is 1) buy stones with GIA/AGS reports
Forum rules stipulate no discussion of CZs and non-diamonds, if they didn't want us talking about non-GIA/AGS stones they should put those in the rules with the CZs. Other useful threads on this forum also discuss EGL versus GIA. I am buying a low color, color is not a major concern, and I trust my own eyes for clarity, so an EGL is appropriate. I also don't see how the the certifying lab has bearing on evaluating the cut, whether it is done visually or by other means.

2) you cannot judge fancies by numbers
Seems to be the general opinion, but that doesn't make it off limits for discussion. Don't forget the primary reason I posted was to ask how to do a visual evaluation.

ASETs are far more useful. This is not to say the method in which you are going about all of this is wrong, but that if you're looking for someone to help you analyze your purchase via numbers, I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree. As a lay person, I can read ASETs just fine, but synthesizing depth percentages and crown angles is beyond my capabilities.

I would think most lay people would understand depth percentages and crown angles better. Public education taught me trig, I never saw an ASSET image before I started reading this forum. I certainly welcome discussion of either. My own discussion has mostly focused on math, since right now all I have are numbers, and it is what I am familiar with.
 
Just take good macro photos of the thing when it arrives and post them here for opinions on whether or not to keep it. You could also buy your own ASET kit for $93: http://www.datlas.com/tools.htm

Exactly the sort of advice I am looking for.

I disagree with you about the lab grading issue. The problem with EGL or basically any non-GIA or AGS certed stone is that you really have no idea what you are getting in terms of color, clarity, etc. so there is no way to compare with a GIA or AGS stone as a comp.
If I didn't make it clear, I understand I am taking a risk here, and am much more concerned about carats and cut than clarity and color.

Maybe all the angles and numbers mean something to you, but they don't to most people, and most people are looking for the most visually appealing, bright, sparkly diamond they can find, not the one with the best angles or numbers associated with it. That is why PSers recommend having photos at minimum, let alone ASET or other measurements, for fancy cuts.
I am looking for the same thing. To me, a photo is useless, since it won't let me evaluate sparkle, brightness, etc. I am not saying it can't be done with a photo, just that I don't understand how to do it. At least with angles, I understand the general principle.

I also find it kind of sad that you said your girlfriend thinks anything less than 2 carats is basically junk.
I never said that. I am sure she can understand and appreciate the value of smaller rings, but she personally wants something large and flashy. If I buy her something smaller, it is either because I couldn't afford what she wants, or worse - that she didn't get what she wants and I spent the money anyway.

I didn't get engaged to my now-husband because of the diamond he bought me. Honestly, he could have given me a twisty-tie and I would have said yes.

If that were the case with my girlfriend, I would buy her a twisty tie and not post on here.
 
vince187 said:
I'm a layperson (as far as diamonds go). Maybe being a math geek with no fashion sense makes me different from the typical consumer on here.

Ok.

vince187 said:
Forum rules stipulate no discussion of CZs and non-diamonds, if they didn't want us talking about non-GIA/AGS stones they should put those in the rules with the CZs. Other useful threads on this forum also discuss EGL versus GIA. I am buying a low color, color is not a major concern, and I trust my own eyes for clarity, so an EGL is appropriate. I also don't see how the the certifying lab has bearing on evaluating the cut, whether it is done visually or by other means.

The certifying lab has no bearing on the cut. As a member of a consumer forum, I want to see people pay a fair price for what they are getting. You don't know what you're getting with an EGL report because EGL is an inconsistent grader. You have explicitly stated that that's a risk you're willing to take. That's your prerogative.

vince187 said:
Seems to be the general opinion, but that doesn't make it off limits for discussion. Don't forget the primary reason I posted was to ask how to do a visual evaluation.

I never said it was off limits for discussion. A tool to help with a visual evaluation is the ASET scope, as rubybeth mentioned earlier. Other options people consider: trusted-vendor opinion, comparison to a known well-performing diamond, performance in general (assessing fire/brilliance/scintillation, looking for dead areas/facets that stay "off," etc.) in different lighting situations.

vince187 said:
I would think most lay people would understand depth percentages and crown angles better. Public education taught me trig, I never saw an ASSET image before I started reading this forum. I certainly welcome discussion of either. My own discussion has mostly focused on math, since right now all I have are numbers, and it is what I am familiar with.

My point is that you'd have better luck asking folks here to analyze an ASET image, than angles or percentages, because that is what we are familiar with.
 
vince187|1340139803|3219592 said:
I am looking for the same thing. To me, a photo is useless, since it won't let me evaluate sparkle, brightness, etc. I am not saying it can't be done with a photo, just that I don't understand how to do it. At least with angles, I understand the general principle.

I also find it kind of sad that you said your girlfriend thinks anything less than 2 carats is basically junk.
I never said that. I am sure she can understand and appreciate the value of smaller rings, but she personally wants something large and flashy. If I buy her something smaller, it is either because I couldn't afford what she wants, or worse - that she didn't get what she wants and I spent the money anyway.

I didn't get engaged to my now-husband because of the diamond he bought me. Honestly, he could have given me a twisty-tie and I would have said yes.

If that were the case with my girlfriend, I would buy her a twisty tie and not post on here.

Re: photos. I would suggest going with a vendor that provides video, or have the loose stone sent to you/an independent appraiser for evaluation.

And, for the record, I would have loved a big flashy ring. :bigsmile: But I understood at that point that finishing school, getting married, and moving in together was more important to us than a big diamond. I'm going to get my big diamond for our 5-year anniversary next year when we are completely out of debt. :$$): I'm glad you can get your girlfriend what she wants right out of the gate.
 
And, for the record, I would have loved a big flashy ring. But I understood at that point that finishing school, getting married, and moving in together was more important to us than a big diamond. I'm going to get my big diamond for our 5-year anniversary next year when we are completely out of debt.
This is exactly my point. You got a placeholder with an upgrade later. If I get her anything under 2 carats, it will just be a placeholder, and it won't matter if it is a really really nice placeholder or not.
 
vince187|1340195700|3220075 said:
And, for the record, I would have loved a big flashy ring. But I understood at that point that finishing school, getting married, and moving in together was more important to us than a big diamond. I'm going to get my big diamond for our 5-year anniversary next year when we are completely out of debt.
This is exactly my point. You got a placeholder with an upgrade later. If I get her anything under 2 carats, it will just be a placeholder, and it won't matter if it is a really really nice placeholder or not.

No, I am keeping my original ring forever, because I'm sentimental like that. :wink2: I was honestly surprised he was willing to spend as much as he did back in 2008. But since then, my husband and I have been lucky enough to get good jobs, and so we've agreed that a 5-year anniversary/out of debt ring would be appropriate. It also happens that he needs a new wedding band, as well, once an injury to his hand heals, so we'll get to ring shop for each other all over again. :cheeky:

Does your girlfriend know you are seriously ring shopping? Does she know how much a 2-carat diamond costs relative to your other financial goals? I think if you can afford a 2 carat ring with cash and still meet your other obligations without problem, then it's fine to get the big bling. I just know that getting married means other expenses are coming soon... wedding, honeymoon, buying/renovating a house, possibly having a baby... so spending more than you can really afford on the bling means that other things will have to be delayed, or go into more debt. Money can be an issue within a relationship, so being on the same page in regards to a large purchase is important.
 
rubybeth|1340196271|3220081 said:
Does your girlfriend know you are seriously ring shopping? Does she know how much a 2-carat diamond costs relative to your other financial goals? I think if you can afford a 2 carat ring with cash and still meet your other obligations without problem, then it's fine to get the big bling. I just know that getting married means other expenses are coming soon... wedding, honeymoon, buying/renovating a house, possibly having a baby... so spending more than you can really afford on the bling means that other things will have to be delayed, or go into more debt. Money can be an issue within a relationship, so being on the same page in regards to a large purchase is important.

Ditto - as someone that made a prudent choice to hold off on the big ring until we could afford it comfortably, AND made the choice together - I cringe reading some of your gf's demands. It's either immature on her part or unfair on your part not to fully include her in this process. And the only reason I'm sticking my nose in here is because you mentioned being on a budget and that she can't live with you because of the condition of your house - plus that you're ignoring her request for a halo. Sounds like some communication needs to be stepped up on both sides. This advice comes from someone who wishes you both happiness. Best of luck and we'd love to see the radiant when you get it.
 
I am curious to get your opinions about the stone once it arrives. I really don't think you've done anything wrong with trying to meet her criteria the best of your ability and budget, even if you've had to make some sacrifices. Just because she wants a halo doesn't mean she gets one - right now. Sometimes us females lose sight that if we want a honker, there may not be the budget for certain kinds of settings. So, in my opinion, I think you've done everything right.

We shouldn't be so harsh about his lovely princess. We certainly don't even know enough of the situation to comment.
 
Well, Abazias just gave me the finger:







https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/r1.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/r2.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/r3.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/r4.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/2.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/Diamonds/3.png

Besides the jeweler's finger, and a really nice set of tongs, is my future fiance's future ring! I may post some good pictures after it arrivse, but even from these, it looks much better than I was expecting.

r1.png

r2.png

r3.png

r4.png
 
Are you looking for feedback about the stone, or are you happy with it and you plan to keep it?
 
1. C/P angles are useless - can see clearly in your photos that the stone is stepped through the pav so there are no facets that span culet-girdle straight. You want C/P height percent. No idea how you're getting length-wise vals, all measurements on the report are functions of width only (http://www.eglusa.com/images/interactive/index.html)

2. Agree that IS/ASET is not a useful tool for evaluating a "traditional radiant" like this one. This is in my experience one of those Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder shapes... problem is, since you chose not to have the stone shipped out to behold its beauty before having it set, none of us can say anything with any surety wrt real-world attractiveness

3. You would think if we could put people on the moon thirty years ago we could make a consistent & reliable colorimeter that consistently and reliably spans the D-Z gamut... apparently not. Or, at least, such is my understanding of the situation.

4. New consumers aren't going to find bargains on the primary market, period. Unless they're buying from their parents or best friends or they're famous and the vendor wants an advertisement opportunity. There too many smart & savvy intermediaries who know the ins and outs of the trade and who will most certainly take their own cut from any bargain you, the end consumer, might once have dreamt of.

5. Adding girdle + CH + PH != depth - is okay, averaging, rounding, way measurements are taken - if there is some other artifact in the stone to consider...
 
The stone seems to look cloudy and has quite a bit of body color in the photos, although it could be the lighting. Is the stone clean or have you put finger prints on it?
 
motownmama|1341286211|3227646 said:
The stone seems to look cloudy and has quite a bit of body color in the photos, although it could be the lighting. Is the stone clean or have you put finger prints on it?
I think it's safe to assume the stone is clean in these photos because it sounds like they're the ones sent to the OP from the jeweler.

I agree with you, Motownmama.
 
I personally think it looks very nice, but I always love radiant cuts!
 
You mentioned that she said cushions were acceptable. Does she like the vintage-looking cushions? I'm not a diamond expert like some others on this forum, but Good Old Gold has several 2+ carat August Vintage Cushions that I believe are in your price range based on the EGL certificate you posted. Warmer colors aren't as apparent in that cut I've been told, and they're all basically guaranteed to be beautiful performing stones.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9348/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9204/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8798/
 
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