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Jeweler quote: "all triple excellent diamonds will give you ideal performance"

spyvsspy

spyvsspy

Rough_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
13
Hi everyone,

As some of you know, my mother gave me her old engagement ring (from a past marriage). However, my boyfriend and I have started looking at engagement rings (which would use a new stone). We visited his university friend who owns a jewelery shop in the Diamond District in NYC over the weekend. The friend showed us 4-5 diamonds in the 1.3 to 1.7 range that were rated triple excellent (cut, polish, symmetry), I, and SI1 to VS1*

He said they were rated XXX with the above features, but we didn't see any supporting documentation - like GIA certificates.

I asked the jeweler if he had or could order Ideascopes for any of the diamonds and he brushed me off saying that all triple excellent diamonds will be the same and have ideal performance. Judging by my brief time on Pricescope, I know that some diamonds will have more light leakage than others, even if they have the same rating.

How would you respond to the jeweler?
I'm afraid my boyfriend will just pick the diamond that his friend recommends...and I want to ensure that we are both well versed on how to optimize this purchase.
 
I would say "thanks for your time", walk out the door and never come back. If he truly believes that all XXX diamonds are the same he is not qualified to sell you a diamond.
 
XXX diamonds aren't exactly ugly. The GIA made the range wide because a fair number of people like the "bad" diamonds better than the "good" diamonds. But since almost all diamonds now are cut to just hit the edge of XXX, that means that all those stones are appealing to a handful of outliers.
 
skypie said:
I would say "thanks for your time", walk out the door and never come back. If he truly believes that all XXX diamonds are the same he is not qualified to sell you a diamond.
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Ditto. If I had a nickel for every time I’ve read a “bought the diamond from a friend who owns a jewelry store” saga that turned out badly ... :wall:

@spyvsspy I don’t know how close your BF & this ‘friend’ are, but I would first suggest politely severing the ‘business’ with the friend if you can ... tell your BF he can tell his friend that it’s your preference to not conduct business transactions with friends especially of high dollar & emotional value, and that you appreciate the friend’s insight and suggestions. Let BF know that you can find a superior diamond online and probably for le$$ than his ‘friend’ is trying to sell you.

If that is not an option or BF balks at the idea of going elsewhere, I would let him and the friend know that any diamond purchase you/he makes is contingent on having a GIA or AGS certificate for the diamond - explain that you will also want them for insurance purposes to ensure replacement specs if ever needed, but for now you need them to compare the diamonds’ specs for yourself before choosing to make a well-informed decision. If, after that, he/she is still being less than forthcoming about their stones, I would thank him/her for their time, and take your business elsewhere. You shouldn’t have to pry the truth out of someone if they are truly honest and dealing fairly.

Good luck! :wavey:

ETA: I meant get the cert up front so you can see if the numbers add up to it being a good candidate (search for “pricescope ideal cut parameters” so you know what to look for). I didn’t mean to just buy the diamond because he produces a certificate. Sorry if I was unclear. ;)
 
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ChristineRose said:
XXX diamonds aren't exactly ugly. The GIA made the range wide because a fair number of people like the "bad" diamonds better than the "good" diamonds. But since almost all diamonds now are cut to just hit the edge of XXX, that means that all those stones are appealing to a handful of outliers.
Click to expand...

And ChristineRose rings the bell!

Shame I can not make confetti fly and rain down upon us all.

It is ALL about the money with the GIA XXX rated diamonds. If you look at the diamonds cut over the past few years, more and more are Steep and Deep and weighing up to 25% MORE than if they had been cut to be beautiful! This is especially true where price point weights are able to be crossed by "swindle cutting" the diamond to cross that weight.

John Pollard wrote an excellent article a couple of years ago showing what a diamond would weigh if cut to maximum beauty and showing what the diamond could weigh if cut to cross the 3 ct line.

The properly cut 2.72 ct would have sold for more than $100,000 less than the poorly cut 3.01. The 3.01 was listed, and sold on a popular sight. Why didn't someone buy the starting crystal and cut it right you ask? Because someone who knew how they could cut it fat paid much more for the crystal than those who wanted to cut it right could pay.

Yet, many say that well cut diamonds are overpriced. I would contend that the beautiful 2.72 ct would have been a much better value than the extra fat 3.01 ct.

Who wins there? The cutter who can cut it fat, knowing that people who do not know anything about diamond cutting will pay for the paper, never realizing that they are paying WAY too much.

'Tis very sad really, and GIA feeds the hands that feed them, i.e. the cutters who like that extra money for cutting diamonds that are really not all that beautiful.

Wink
 
Your SO's friend may be none the wiser, surprising number of jewellers often are. But I would keep a transaction involving a large of sum of money like this, separate from friends.
 
Whether he believes what he is saying or knows better and doesn't say so, he wouldn't be the jeweler for me. If you have read here on PS long enough, you know that there are several vendors with extremely well cut stones to offer without a side of BS. It is a large purchase regardless of what size stone you are choosing; start first and foremost with a knowledgeable vendor of integrity.
 
spyvsspy said:
Hi everyone,

As some of you know, my mother gave me her old engagement ring (from a past marriage). However, my boyfriend and I have started looking at engagement rings (which would use a new stone). We visited his university friend who owns a jewelery shop in the Diamond District in NYC over the weekend. The friend showed us 4-5 diamonds in the 1.3 to 1.7 range that were rated triple excellent (cut, polish, symmetry), I, and SI1 to VS1*

He said they were rated XXX with the above features, but we didn't see any supporting documentation - like GIA certificates.

I asked the jeweler if he had or could order Ideascopes for any of the diamonds and he brushed me off saying that all triple excellent diamonds will be the same and have ideal performance. Judging by my brief time on Pricescope, I know that some diamonds will have more light leakage than others, even if they have the same rating.

How would you respond to the jeweler?
I'm afraid my boyfriend will just pick the diamond that his friend recommends...and I want to ensure that we are both well versed on how to optimize this purchase.
Click to expand...

False. Whip out the HCA Tool & prove it, if you have to. Your man needs education, and his buddy is not the resource.
Pull the plug on the friend, and move on.
 
I agree with what everyone else has said but just have one more suggestion, if you feel your fiancé really may end up buying a stone from this guy. Request a diamond that has an AGS Ideal cut rating. AGS is much narrower than GIA excellent and is a much safer bet.
 
Everyone else who has commented on this thread has given you very good advice.

I was given the exact same line by a jeweller when I bought an anniversary ring for my wife a few years ago. I didn’t know better at the time (even though I had stalked PS for a while) and yes, it was certainly more lively than my wife’s engagement ring (a family heirloom).

Was GIA XXX but it was a classic steep/deep combo angle wise and a touch too deep overall (35.5/41.2, T 56/D 62.8). They advertised it as the best they had to offer in their own in house “certified” stone range.

Fast forward to the end of 2016 and I was looking for a push present for my wife. Found a stone from BGD that was several colour grades below the GIA XXX stone (AGS K vs GIA G) but cut to super ideal proportions and it has medium blue fluorescence.

We’ve since been back to that jeweller when looking at other jewellery my wife has an eye on and have had plenty of compliments from their staff on the BGD stone. And when they have asked where did we get the stone from, I’ve been honest and said off the internet via a superideal vendor in the USA.

I’ve flat out said to their staff members who have gemmological experience that not all GIA XXX’s are created equal (and said that our previous stone we bought from them, while beautiful, does not compare to the BGD stone). Privately and off the record, those staff members have agreed with me after comparing both stones together as mounted in their settings (we keep taking the GIA XXX stone and ring back for its annual clean and inspection with them). And even though they are a HoF seller, their gemologically trained staff have privately said that the BGD stone is better value and looks better than the HoF stones they keep in stock.

They have also said to me that the next time that I am looking for a stone to come back to them with specific specs in mind and they will see what they can do for me. Unfortunately, when I mention AGS grading as being a must for me now rather than GIA, a number of them don’t know of AGS and those that do have said that they have a policy of purchasing GIA stones rather than other lab graded reports just due to the market penetration of GIA here in Australia. Such is life...
 
"Right" :roll "Thanks" Head for the door.

These days I can't even suppress the eye roll. I really can't. I'm to f***** old to waste my time on this f***** sh**.

Sorry, been a long day and filter is gone. Stick to your guns. Don't let a bad diamond happen to you.

OK, say these words to your fiance. "Do NOT buy anything without my express approval. I need to see it and give it my OK before you shell out ANY money. I'm NOT kidding. I don't care what kind of deal they tell you it is. I'm wearing this stone. I have to love it." Hopefully there will be no ambiguity after he hears this. I wouldn't think twice about saying this to my fiance if I were in your shoes. Then take control of the diamond selection process. Just tell him to get ready to wire the money when you've picked your stone.
 
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Either he's trying to deceive you with that comment, or he's truely ignorant of his own profession. Either way, find another qualified jeweler to work with. This is too large of a purchase to trust to a deceptive and/or ignorant reseller.
 
Really from the sound of it, he's making it clear that he doesn't want to be bothered with people who are educated about diamond cut and that's fine, vote with your wallet and find one that will. He's not unusual as in my experience, there are many like him and they do just fine business wise with the majority of diamond shoppers who neither know nor care about such things.

Discerning consumers who DO care about such things are another matter and there are jewellers out there who will work with you and are educated themselves.

As we have seen over the years ever since GIA introduced their cut grading, we have seen that many steep deep leakers have been assigned the EX cut grade, undeservedly so, and there are pages of threads discussing this. Some of these stones are not top or ideal performers in my opinion.
 
If you really want the best cut diamonds, you must expect to pay a somewhat greater price than for a run of the mill GIA XXX diamond. The question for many people is "can they tell the difference?". I suppose some people can readily discern a very well cut diamond from an step/deep GIA XXX diamond while lots of consumers would be quite happy with spending somewhat less and not looking at the diamonds so deeply. We can't tell others what will make them happiest, but we certainly do tell others what makes us happiest. This is a very important distinction because experts and prosumers have their educated points of view and more general consumers are not all inclined to go so deeply into the subject. Our expert advice is great but it is based mostly on what we personally prefer and also what we can afford. Some people may need advice on what is very good and somewhat more affordable. Explaining the benefits of buying top cut, AGS000 and super premium stones helps to make the case for spending the extra money for them, but does not fit every consumer equally as well. Helping individually widens the choices and allows more participation in buying a great diamond which meets the needs of each buyer.
 
spyvsspy said:
Thanks everyone! I've chatted with my BF, using all of your feedback and key points, and he is (thankfully) open to using another jeweler.
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:appl::appl: That’s GREAT! Is he open to buying online? If so, the folks here are wonderful at finding great performers in your budget/specs.
 
Thank goodness! I was kind of panicked reading the thread until I reached your last post! I'd run, not walk from that situation!

PLEASE let us give you suggestions of stones. We can show you very well cut stones within your budget, and we have nothing to gain by doing so, and you'll likely get a better stone for less money, and there may be tax advantages, as well. But if he will only buy local (and wants to pay more), tell us the city and we can tell you the closest jeweler that carries well cut stones and knows what he (or she) is talking about!
 
+10000 to Dave Atlas.
Without a doubt, the reaction of the seller, in this case, is a huge red flag. But it does highlight the danger of how the term "ideal" is abused.
 
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