JCK Vegas 2019

[John P]

After the pricing situation stabilizes sure why not.....
Right now, no way.

Stabilization is not a given. If not Pricescope...who?

2019 "State of the Diamond Industry" if you're interested:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...t-state-of-the-diamond-industry-video.249301/

 

[Karl_K]

Stabilization is not a given.

Eventually it will find a point of balance or all the manufactures will go bankrupt and they leave the market.
Either way its not something that in my opinion PS should be involved in at this time.
It would not be fulfilling the consumer protection function of PS.

 

[OoohShiny]

Eventually it will find a point of balance or all the manufactures will go bankrupt and they leave the market.
Either way its not something that in my opinion PS should be involved in at this time.
It would not be fulfilling the consumer protection function of PS.

I'm not sure I completely get where you are coming from here, Karl!

Are you saying that PS should not be listing MMDs right now because prices are not stable and buyers therefore cannot be guaranteed to not overpay (compared to where they ultimately end up)?

And PS could therefore be seen as tacitly supporting/promoting these higher prices if it is seen to be listing them?


If so, could one argue the opposite point of view - that PS could be encouraging competition, consumer awareness, and therefore (consumers' desire for) lower prices across the market, on the basis that the obviously more expensive sellers might not get much business (or, at least, buyers only use them in full awareness that they are paying more)?

 

[OoohShiny]

Have not been focused too much on $$$'s as clearly they are using natural and saying we are cheaper - but the profit margins are very high and with competition and the effect of Light Box when their production comes on line prices will drop. Maybe plummet.
Pricescope will help when we get our platform done, which Andrey will do "the right way". i.e. with full transparency etc.

A big factor is most CVD needs post HPHT treatment and as growers get better they will catch up with De Beers LB and produce +G out of the reactors.

But cheaper cutting and cheaper grading (or no need for grading) are also big $$$'s factors.

Will discuss more of that later.

I may be jumping ahead here but WRT the cutting/grading, might it end up that 99% (say) of rough coming out of a given producer are coming out G+ in colour, therefore they will just do a quick sift by eye to take out those that have gone a bit wonky and then put the rest onto the market as Colourless, in the same way that GIA (currently) groups MMDs into Colourless or Near Colourless only?

I'm not clear on the differences between CVD and CVD+HPHT stones. Am I correct in thinking that the latter can have (usually) brown undertones, even after HPHT treatment, whereas CVD-only (which I believe is a slower growing process?) does not? Are both types usually Type IIa?


Pricewise, I am (my wallet is... ) hopeful that they get more affordable - I was quoted $350/stone for 2mm colourless VS+ French Cuts from one place the other day, which seems vastly expensive given the cost of rough and the (surely?!) relatively simple cutting required for French Cuts!

 

[Karl_K]

I'm not sure I completely get where you are coming from here, Karl!

Are you saying that PS should not be listing MMDs right now because prices are not stable and buyers therefore cannot be guaranteed to not overpay (compared to where they ultimately end up)?

mmd today is similar to the early days of cell phones.
Its fine for the early adopters but not the mass market.

 

[John P]

I'm not clear on the differences between CVD and CVD+HPHT stones.

Overall picture (you may know much of this already):

CVD means chemical vapor deposition. Think of it as releasing carbon from vapor. This involves superheating hydrocarbon gas in a vacuum to between 3,000-4,000 C, at which point the carbon atoms begin to separate from their molecular bonds. Those atoms descend and land on a flat wafer of HPHT synthetic diamond and grow in vertical layers. The substrate is usually square for jewelry applications but it can vary for other uses.

HPHT means High Pressure High Temperature. Essentially, it's replicating the natural conditions under which diamonds formed 100 miles below the surface due to subduction. A carbon source, a diamond seed and a metallic catalyst go into an octahedral cell. The cell is placed into a behemoth mechanical press where the contents are heated near 1,500 C and subjected to staggering pressure. The melting metal dissolves the carbon and the pressure causes precipitation to the diamond seed, growing a larger diamond. GIA compared the level of pressure from those presses to what you’d experience if you balanced a jumbo jet on the tip of your finger.

Am I correct in thinking that the latter can have (usually) brown undertones, even after HPHT treatment, whereas CVD-only (which I believe is a slower growing process?) does not?

There's ongoing experimentation and variation as tech advances. Traditional HPHT operations were unable to eradicate brown. The presence of that undertone has lessened as tech evolves, but it definitely remains present in the overall pipeline. One HPHT company has been able to remove it completely, but their output now has a hint of blue. As for CVD diamonds that use an HPHT annealment, today that process frequently finishes with grey or pink undertones.

Are both types usually Type IIa?

For D-Z colors yes. Yellow (Ib) can be grown artificially. So can blue (IIb) but that's still rare.

 

[jeaniefish]

As a consumer who is very interested in finding a MMD , EC, with emphasis on the cut quality, I would welcome a PS search tool. I think that IGI is very generous with its cut grading system. That makes finding a really good cut to be quite challenging/frustrating.
What I would really welcome is GIA certif. and, of course, a lower per carat price. To that end, I look forward to DeBeers influence on the industry with their pricing of $800/ carat. Someone at D.NEA told me that MMD were incredibly expensive to produce . If that is true, DeBeers must not even be breaking even He also told me that the new De Beers factory in Oregon would be producing mostly industrial use diamonds there. :roll

 

[jeaniefish]

Also, why is it so hard to find yellow MMD? De Beers isn’t offering them at all. Apologies if I’m posting this in the wrong thread but John P. just mentioned yellow diamonds so thought I’d ask here.

 

[cflutist]

Here are some from a Google search:

https://www.jewelryimpressions.com/loose-chatham-created-yellow-diamonds

 

[Karl_K]

Also, why is it so hard to find yellow MMD? De Beers isn’t offering them at all. Apologies if I’m posting this in the wrong thread but John P. just mentioned yellow diamonds so thought I’d ask here.

They are being further treated to white.
Many hpht created diamonds are yellow out of the press.
It also looks like cvd has taken a larger chunk of the market than hpht meaning less yellows.

 

[jeaniefish]

Thanks cflutist. I wasn’t able to actually start a search by clicking on the link. Perhaps you have to contact them directly?

Karl: I’m assuming that, as with earth mined diamonds, yellows are usually less expensive than whites. Since the labs are able to control the color, they are heading straight for the max. profit possible. That’s discouraging, but explains why searching for a nice FLY is like looking for a needle in a haystack.Thanks for answering that question!

 

[OoohShiny]

Thanks cflutist. I wasn’t able to actually start a search by clicking on the link. Perhaps you have to contact them directly?

Karl: I’m assuming that, as with earth mined diamonds, yellows are usually less expensive than whites. Since the labs are able to control the color, they are heading straight for the max. profit possible. That’s discouraging, but explains why searching for a nice FLY is like looking for a needle in a haystack.Thanks for answering that question!

I added a site to the MMD sellers list thread in the Lab Grown section of the forum the other week, and that had a great range of really very vivid colours - I was quite surprised by the selection!