IYO, should in-person schools (K through post Ph.D) open now?

[whitewave]

I hope you are beginning to feel better @whitewave. I know you didn’t have the virus but don’t want to lessen how this has affected you. Your distress came thru in your posts. I felt so bad for your friend too. It would be awful to think you could have passed this on to a close friend. I’m sorry you both went thru this.

I’ve been doing a lot of gardening in 104 degree F heat index to deal with my emotions. It’s been very hard and strenuous work, but has given me a purpose and a job. Like a lot of other people, I am fixing up my house and making it a sanctuary.

I’ll post some photos later on when I get some more done. I have a large and extensive garden in the front of my house and because I live in the woods, over 20 years my bushes died and the brambles took over and it was a fight. I eventually paid a crew to come take it all down years ago. Even the brambles are dead now, so now is as good a time as any to put it all back together.

I’m doing more flowers than before and planting things bees, butterflies and hummingbirds like.

Thank you for thinking about me. It’s just a rough time of year... anniversary of my BIL’s death by suicide coming up also. It’s hard getting older.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I'm starting to understand how poor @Dancing Fire feels. Someone unjustly attacks me personally and when I say the least little thing in return I am made out to be the villain. Maybe we need a support group.

If I treated anyone on this forum the way I (and others) have been treated ( personal attacks, assumptions, judgement, putting into quotes and attributing to me words I never wrote...) I would expect to be at least temporarily banned, certainly not defended! But, I am nobody's favorite so let the personal attacks fly and I will just move on (granted, with a little razzing but nothing close to what has been dished out to me) while those who claim to be sensitive and tolerant defend the forum bullies. That, I would argue, is also extremely unattractive.

Yup, If the liberal HERD don't agree with your post they'll report you to the admin, believe me I know... but don't let them stop you from posting b/c that's what they want. The few conservatives who used to post here all headed for the hills,b/c they can't take the heat.

 

[voce]

Are you talking to me??...

I was talking about you, but I can talk to you, too :p

I just meant that there's always things for people to worry about if they want to. Cholesterol can kill people just as COVID-19 does, but in both cases there is just no telling the exact load of cholesterol or virus that'll make you sick or kill.

I'm in favor of taking precautions, but it's far from certain that a particular person is killing you from not wearing a mask. Just as any lobster dinner could be your last before you get a heart attack, but I doubt the liberals would accuse the person inviting you to a lobster dinner of being a killer.

 

[OboeGal]

When did I or another PS member endorse giving people carte blanche to run around doing whatever they want?

You are making a slippery slope arguments and taking examples to the extreme. Without even realizing how your biases are leading to logical fallacies.

This is a free country. You are free to judge people based on anything you want. That doesn't make you superior, even if you like to believe so.

Lest you go too far in your assumptions, I am extremely careful not to infect other people. I am one of the most conscientious people at my workplace, especially about wearing masks and sanitizing my hands, even though we work with plenty of physical distancing. I bring latex gloves when I go grocery shopping and use hand sanitizer when getting takeout from the restaurant. I also haven't gone to a single social engagement or event since January or early February, and have no plans to host any social engagements, as some PS members have already done or are contemplating doing.

I just happen to think that calling people who aren't following proper masking procedures "killers" is assuming too much, and unjustified. You're innocent until proven guilty in the justice system, but evidently that does not apply in the court of public opinion, where everyone wants to play the judge.


If this is what you think deserves a standing ovation, tsk tsk, I see an echo chamber instead of critical thinking.

I don't believe I accused you personally of being reckless in behavior, as I was aware that I had no idea what your personal practices were. When I said "those of you," I was using the general "you" meaning "everyone not myself," as one does in writing. I'm relieved and grateful to hear that you are cautious and considerate with your own health and others.

I was responding to your assertion about judging the behavioral choices of others in this pandemic, and that response stands. I will continue to judge negatively those who knowingly and willfully go out unnecessarily just because they want to, or as a political statement, because they are contributing to the further community spread of this virus. I will continue to judge those who knowingly refuse to wear a mask around others outside of their household, or knowingly wear one incorrectly. I will continue to judge those who refuse to keep distance from others outside their household. I will continue to judge those who knowingly spread misinformation about this crisis to further an agenda. Their behaviors are contributing to further community spread, and to unnecessary deaths - that's not an opinion; it's FACT. So yes, I will judge them, just as I judge those who choose to drive drunk, or abuse or neglect their children, or abuse or neglect animals.

It's not about "feeling superior" - I have no idea why you fixate there.

It's about being terrified for my life and the lives of those I love.

It's about being heartbroken at the relentless march of my neighbors - especially the helpless vulnerable from nursing homes - into the hospital and then to their graves. At the young people who still can't walk up a flight of stairs months after first falling ill. At the 77 out of 100 patients in the German study who have changes to their hearts consistent with congestive heart failure weeks after illness, even mild courses. My father died of congestive heart failure - it is a ghastly disease to live and die with. At the thousands of families left with crippling medical debt after family members spent days to weeks in the ICU.

Can't you see that?

 

[Tekate]

Frankly how could you not take serious what people are saying? I interpret that as you think their opinion is worthless, if you don't agree fine but to say 'worthless' is unkind and dismissing. I find the word 'herd' demeaning also.

Thank you Queenie. I know you are not arguing with me and rest assured, my feeling are not hurt by any of this. I do not take some of these people seriously...how could I???

I do participate in other parts of this board but I guess some of this is just a bit of comic relief for me. I can’t wait to read tomorrow’s episode.....Trump plans to give all Americans a free pit bull hoping It will chase off the mailman in a further attempt to disrupt mail-in voting!!! Followed by a PSA...Remember, if you are isolated, not seeing any people or going out anywhere, YOU STILL NEED A MASK. Or someone’s grannie will die...and you are a terrible person.

 

[Tekate]

DF, my son and DIL will not come near us because my DIL goes to work 3 days a week at Walgreens and my little granddaughter goes to daycare 3 days a week, they say they do this for us because they love us and on the OFF CHANCE just the off chance they might be carrying Covid-19 they won't risk a close encounter. Now my son may think differently than your daughters.

I wish that people here wouldn't politicize the Covid-19 virus, I wish we all wished for a cure and safe distances and caring.

Yeah,They aren't wearing a mask. Are they trying to kill grandpa and grandma?

 

[OboeGal]

I was talking about you, but I can talk to you, too :p

I just meant that there's always things for people to worry about if they want to. Cholesterol can kill people just as COVID-19 does, but in both cases there is just no telling the exact load of cholesterol or virus that'll make you sick or kill.

I'm in favor of taking precautions, but it's far from certain that a particular person is killing you from not wearing a mask. Just as any lobster dinner could be your last before you get a heart attack, but I doubt the liberals would accuse the person inviting you to a lobster dinner of being a killer.

The "lobster dinner analogy" doesn't stand. One has the personal choice whether or not to go to dinner, and whether or not to eat lobster or anything else; they are able to make the choice about their own health, and nothing is being forced upon them.

When people HAVE to go out to get groceries and necessary supplies, to get non-COVID medical care, or to their jobs, they don't get to have control over the viral particles that other people exude. What others put into the air is being forced upon them. They don't necessarily get to prevent others from coming too close. They can wear a mask themselves, which helps them a little and others much more, but that will not necessarily prevent infection - only reduce the chance of it some. It's impossible to do those necessary things without some risk of infection, of course, but if everyone is only going out to do necessary things, wears masks correctly, and keeps as much distance as possible, the amount of virus circulating in the air at any given time will be much, much less, so there would be far fewer infected people.

 

[1ofakind]

Frankly how could you not take serious what people are saying? I interpret that is a their opinion is worthless, if you don't agree fine but to say 'worthless' is unkind and dismissing. I find the word 'herd' demeaning also.

Great example....I didn't say worthless. YOU did and put it in quotations, attributing it to me and then saying it is unkind and dismissive.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF, my son and DIL will not come near us because my DIL goes to work 3 days a week at Walgreens and my little granddaughter goes to daycare 3 days a week, they say they do this for us because they love us and on the OFF CHANCE just the off chance they might be carrying Covid-19 they won't risk a close encounter. Now my son may think differently than your daughters.

I wish that people here wouldn't politicize the Covid-19 virus, I wish we all wished for a cure and safe distances and caring.

I'd understand. Everyone should do whatever to make themselves feel comfortable and shouldn't care what others say.

 

[voce]

The "lobster dinner analogy" doesn't stand. One has the personal choice whether or not to go to dinner, and whether or not to eat lobster or anything else; they are able to make the choice about their own health, and nothing is being forced upon them.

When people HAVE to go out to get groceries and necessary supplies, to get non-COVID medical care, or to their jobs, they don't get to have control over the viral particles that other people exude. What others put into the air is being forced upon them. They don't necessarily get to prevent others from coming too close. They can wear a mask themselves, which helps them a little and others much more, but that will not necessarily prevent infection - only reduce the chance of it some. It's impossible to do those necessary things without some risk of infection, of course, but if everyone is only going out to do necessary things, wears masks correctly, and keeps as much distance as possible, the amount of virus circulating in the air at any given time will be much, much less, so there would be far fewer infected people.

"What others put into the air is being forced upon them?"

What can you prove about what is actually in the air? What viral load any one person is adding to the air? You can only come to the logical conclusion that people not wearing masks are putting a larger viral load into the air if you already assume they have the virus. And that is an assumption, not fact.

As to your hypothesis about how there would be far fewer infected people if people only went out to do necessary things and wore masks... That is only one opinion or viewpoint that is far from provable to be correct.

In the community where I currently am, visiting my parents, the majority of COVID-19 cases were spread from person-to-person transmission in the home, not from public settings. I personally have a different opinion, that you initially get the virus from travel, but I suspect it spreads from household to household much more quickly, in private settings, than the public transmission rates from the odd person who doesn't wear a mask in public. Where I am, it's no mask no service and has been like this ever since March, so it's only the odd person who isn't wearing a mask.

I'm not saying that there is no additional risk as a result of people not masking correctly, but the degree of risk they add is not neatly quantifiable. I think you and Kenny are overestimating the risk others bring to you but of course you are entitled to believe whatever you want and judge them killers. I just think that's an unnecessarily extreme response that speaks volumes about paranoia and fear, which are not necessarily justified.

 

[Musia]

@kenny There is no recommendation for isolation unless one is high risk, is sick or may have been exposed, waiting for contact tracing test results. The rest of us can social distance. It’s not careless or insensitive to do so especially in areas with low numbers of cases. Even Fauci is going to baseball games And slacking on the mask wearing...and because of his age he’s in the risky category.

I didn't finish reading this thread, maybe someone already posted about the news here. Fauci allowed us to vote if we wear masks and don't make crowds. https://www.dailywire.com/news/fauc...xRkJ4A_KWvF5nuEjpBGAQJ_lveGVh5-QVyJctuWTUnBw0

 

[scouty]

I'd understand. Everyone should do whatever to make themselves feel comfortable and shouldn't care what others say.

I agree. I think everyone should operate under their own risk assessment/threshold. I've stayed home and haven't gone out because I was hospitalized for H1N1 and don't want to go through an experience like that again. On the other hand, I have friends who are on vacation right now, I have a friend who is going out for online dates. These are their decisions and I respect them.

We are only responsible for our own actions at the end of the day.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I suspect it spreads from household to household much more quickly, in private settings, than the public transmission rates

I respectfully disagree, @voce . The a handful of well documented cases suggest strongly that public transmission is very much a thing . The case of Germany's patient zero is extremely well documented. She traveled from China into Germany (so the travel part is right). She then proceeded to infect her coworkers. It happened in a meeting room.

Then over lunch in the company's own restaurant, patient 4 infected patient 5 sitting back to back at a different table, only once turning around,asking for the salt from that table.

How One Traveler Set Off a Coronavirus Outbreak in Germany

A play-by-play of how one business trip spread Covid-19 through a company in Munich

coronavirus.medium.com

Same goes for the horrible super spreader event in the French Lorraine region. evangelical pastor preaching (read : DROPLETS) and infecting hundreds (!!). Which led to the region being one of the hardest hit in France (army had to go in, field hospitals, patients transported to Germany etc etc)

Special Report: Five days of worship that set a virus time bomb in France

From the stage of an evangelical superchurch, the leader of the gospel choir kicked off an evening of prayer and preaching: "We're going to celebrate the Lord! Are you feeling the joy tonight?"

www.reuters.com

And in Korea. Evangelical preacher infected many

South Korea is bracing for a spike in coronavirus cases after a 'super-spreader' event occurred at a controversial church

In the midst of an "unprecedented crisis," Daegu's mayor shut down public spaces, effectively emptying the usually busy city of 2.5 million people.

www.businessinsider.com

As an aside, purely anecdotical: the two people from my extended family who died of COVID got it via community spread (no one else in their surrounding had any symptoms or tested positive or tested positive for antibodies). My close friend who got it, got it at a work meeting - 6ft distance between participants indoors, but no mask. BAM

QUOTE="voce, post: 4800119, member: 101872"]
"


You can only come to the logical conclusion that people not wearing masks are putting a larger viral load into the air if you already assume they have the virus. And that is an assumption, not fact.




[/QUOTE]
So my personal opinion in response to the bolded part of your post is that anyone needs to act as if everyone else was potentially infected if we want to get on top of that virus.

 

[scouty]

"What others put into the air is being forced upon them?"

What can you prove about what is actually in the air? What viral load any one person is adding to the air? You can only come to the logical conclusion that people not wearing masks are putting a larger viral load into the air if you already assume they have the virus. And that is an assumption, not fact.

As to your hypothesis about how there would be far fewer infected people if people only went out to do necessary things and wore masks... That is only one opinion or viewpoint that is far from provable to be correct.

In the community where I currently am, visiting my parents, the majority of COVID-19 cases were spread from person-to-person transmission in the home, not from public settings. I personally have a different opinion, that you initially get the virus from travel, but I suspect it spreads from household to household much more quickly, in private settings, than the public transmission rates from the odd person who doesn't wear a mask in public. Where I am, it's no mask no service and has been like this ever since March, so it's only the odd person who isn't wearing a mask.

I'm not saying that there is no additional risk as a result of people not masking correctly, but the degree of risk they add is not neatly quantifiable. I think you and Kenny are overestimating the risk others bring to you but of course you are entitled to believe whatever you want and judge them killers. I just think that's an unnecessarily extreme response that speaks volumes about paranoia and fear, which are not necessarily justified.

Do you have any thoughts on the spread of the virus in apartment complexes/high rise buildings? I am interested in aerosol spread in HVAC and sewage systems. Haven't found many studies on this for Covid but did see there were these issues back during SARS in HK.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Is this a rhetorical question or do you wish to hear an answer?

Please do

 

[Dancing Fire]

but I doubt the liberals would accuse the person inviting you to a lobster dinner of being a killer.

I'm waiting for a PSer liberal to invite me over for a steak and lobster dinner...

 

[Tekate]

no one said they couldn't vote in person if they want, mail in voting is for those are can't get to a polling place, feel vulnerable to covid, it's not to replace voting in person.

I didn't finish reading this thread, maybe someone already posted about the news here. Fauci allowed us to vote if we wear masks and don't make crowds. https://www.dailywire.com/news/fauc...xRkJ4A_KWvF5nuEjpBGAQJ_lveGVh5-QVyJctuWTUnBw0

 

[voce]

@kipari we have very different ideas of what constitutes public settings. A restaurant I would consider public, travel transmission is public, but I don't consider church worship events to be public, as they are social gatherings where people run into other people they know.

For what it's worth, the transmission of droplets is highly dependent on whether the person is talking or singing.

Singing >= public speaking (projected voice) > conversational voice >>> breathing without saying a word. Speaking at a conversational volume, the droplets travel to 6 ft distance. Singing, the droplets travel a longer distance, like 20 ft plus.

I've seen the way people can blow out candles on a birthday cake through a mask.

I consider someone who is singing or goes door to door shouting Black Lives Matter through their mask as putting me more at risk than a person with their mask off who doesn't open their mouth to say anything. Of course, if it's someone panting from exercise, I consider that as great a risk as someone talking.

Edit:

Estimation of Aerosol Emissions From Simulated Individuals With Asymptomatic to Moderate COVID-19

This mathematical modeling study estimates viral aerosol emissions from simulated individuals with asymptomatic to moderate coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).

jamanetwork.com

Regular breathing (without vocal communication) transmits droplets orders of magnitude less than coughing, and I'm assuming, talking.

If I see a person who takes their mask down temporarily to breathe normally, not talk, I think that is their right, especially if that person has asthma. I don't consider them as putting me at risk as much as the chatty person wearing a mask.

I personally prefer to focus on substance (viral load actually transmitted) rather than appearance (whether or not an individual at that instant is wearing a mask or not). I would venture a guess that no one among us is capable of living 24/7 with a mask on.

Do you have any thoughts on the spread of the virus in apartment complexes/high rise buildings? I am interested in aerosol spread in HVAC and sewage systems. Haven't found many studies on this for Covid but did see there were these issues back during SARS in HK.

Scouty, I would take precautions, but I guess literature on HVAC and COVID-19 is scarce. There's not a super huge correlation.

Airborne route and bad use of ventilation systems as non-negligible factors in SARS-CoV-2 transmission

The world is facing a pandemic of unseen proportions caused by a corona virus named SARS-CoV-2 with unprecedent worldwide measures being taken to tackle its contagion. Person-to-person transmission is accepted but WHO only considers aerosol transmission ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The first article, the researchers talked about studying virus transmission on an airplane. They reasoned that due to HEPA filters at work on airplane HVAC, no passengers who weren't in close physical contact with a COVID carrier got infected.

COVID-19 Outbreak Associated with Air Conditioning in Restaurant, Guangzhou, China, 2020

COVID-19 Outbreak Associated with Air Conditioning in Restaurant, Guangzhou, China, 2020

wwwnc.cdc.gov

This is another article that I found. I think that in many cases, the results are inconclusive. But this study seems to conclude that although no swab tests found the virus through PCR on the HVAC equipment itself, it's probable that A1 spread the virus to at least two people sitting in the air flow path, and then through in-family transmission, there were 10 cases in total.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAOegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1a8ObvVuQVTL-LY-bh7khN

[/URL]

This is guidance from the European CDC.

 

[Matata]

We are only responsible for our own actions at the end of the day.

My response isn't directed personally to you. It is a general nitpick about this phrase which I've frequently seen in covid discussions. Use of the phrase seems to imply the buck stops with the individual. But it doesn't because our actions affect others and we have a responsibility to do no harm which does not seem implicit in that particular phrase. If I'm covid positive and infectious and choose to not wear a mask, I would expect to be held responsible for anyone who becomes infected because of contact with me. Likewise, if I'm covid free and come in contact with an unmasked infectious person, you can be sure that I would hold that person responsible. The phrase as it's frequently used in context in discussions seems to imply freedom to harm as long as we hold ourselves responsible for causing the harm.

 

[Musia]

no one said they couldn't vote in person if they want, mail in voting is for those are can't get to a polling place, feel vulnerable to covid, it's not to replace voting in person.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) announced in May that the state would be sending mail-in ballots to every registered voter in the state, a decision that’s been challenged by the state’s Republican Party.
Newsom’s executive order applied only to the Nov. 3 presidential election. In every other election California voters can request a mail-in ballot without having to cite a reason for doing so.

May be our Gov. was worrying we can't safely vote in person. May be now he would change his mind?

 

[scouty]

My response isn't directed personally to you. It is a general nitpick about this phrase which I've frequently seen in covid discussions. Use of the phrase seems to imply the buck stops with the individual. But it doesn't because our actions affect others and we have a responsibility to do no harm which does not seem implicit in that particular phrase. If I'm covid positive and infectious and choose to not wear a mask, I would expect to be held responsible for anyone who becomes infected because of contact with me. Likewise, if I'm covid free and come in contact with an unmasked infectious person, you can be sure that I would hold that person responsible. The phrase as it's frequently used in context in discussions seems to imply freedom to harm as long as we hold ourselves responsible for causing the harm.

Agreed, in public health scenarios what any one person does can possibly affect or impact the people they come in contact with. Hence, the high levels of community spread we are seeing in the US.

My use of the phrase was more about the idea that only I can control what I do to protect myself in the hopes of not getting infected. I can not control what others do so if someone does not behave the same way I do, in regards to Covid, I choose to avoid them because I have the privilege to work from home, curbside groceries, etc. My friends who are going out, I do not pass my judgement to them, I choose to protect myself from their activities instead because that is only what I can control.

 

[Matata]

My friends who are going out, I do not pass my judgement to them

I don't judge either, but I have been known to nag

 

[Tekate]

This s from WebMD

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

@kipari we have very different ideas of what constitutes public settings. A restaurant I would consider public, travel transmission is public, but I don't consider church worship events to be public, as they are social gatherings where people run into other people they know.

For what it's worth, the transmission of droplets is highly dependent on whether the person is talking or singing.

Singing >= public speaking (projected voice) > conversational voice >>> breathing without saying a word. Speaking at a conversational volume, the droplets travel to 6 ft distance. Singing, the droplets travel a longer distance, like 20 ft plus.

I've seen the way people can blow out candles on a birthday cake through a mask.

I consider someone who is singing or goes door to door shouting Black Lives Matter through their mask as putting me more at risk than a person with their mask off who doesn't open their mouth to say anything. Of course, if it's someone panting from exercise, I consider that as great a risk as someone talking.

Edit:

Estimation of Aerosol Emissions From Simulated Individuals With Asymptomatic to Moderate COVID-19

This mathematical modeling study estimates viral aerosol emissions from simulated individuals with asymptomatic to moderate coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).

jamanetwork.com

Regular breathing (without vocal communication) transmits droplets orders of magnitude less than coughing, and I'm assuming, talking.

If I see a person who takes their mask down temporarily to breathe normally, not talk, I think that is their right, especially if that person has asthma. I don't consider them as putting me at risk as much as the chatty person wearing a mask.

I personally prefer to focus on substance (viral load actually transmitted) rather than appearance (whether or not an individual at that instant is wearing a mask or not). I would venture a guess that no one among us is capable of living 24/7 with a mask on.



Scouty, I would take precautions, but I guess literature on HVAC and COVID-19 is scarce. There's not a super huge correlation.

Airborne route and bad use of ventilation systems as non-negligible factors in SARS-CoV-2 transmission

The world is facing a pandemic of unseen proportions caused by a corona virus named SARS-CoV-2 with unprecedent worldwide measures being taken to tackle its contagion. Person-to-person transmission is accepted but WHO only considers aerosol transmission ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The first article, the researchers talked about studying virus transmission on an airplane. They reasoned that due to HEPA filters at work on airplane HVAC, no passengers who weren't in close physical contact with a COVID carrier got infected.

COVID-19 Outbreak Associated with Air Conditioning in Restaurant, Guangzhou, China, 2020

COVID-19 Outbreak Associated with Air Conditioning in Restaurant, Guangzhou, China, 2020

wwwnc.cdc.gov

This is another article that I found. I think that in many cases, the results are inconclusive. But this study seems to conclude that although no swab tests found the virus through PCR on the HVAC equipment itself, it's probable that A1 spread the virus to at least two people sitting in the air flow path, and then through in-family transmission, there were 10 cases in total.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAOegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1a8ObvVuQVTL-LY-bh7khN

[/URL]

This is guidance from the European CDC.

 

[Tekate]

maybe, my governor is Abbott so I think we can do either.

i think we should have have the opportunity to vote in whatever way one feels comfortable, making elderly people stand on line with masks and 6 feet away from each other may be more than a person in a wheelchair or using a cane, or with breathing problems, cancer etc could stand, they should be allowed to vote by mail and/or absentee ballot, I have always voted by absentee ballot even when i wasn't absent because I have had two hp replacements and standing tooo long hurts. Maybe elderly only hours of voting to avoid the virus and for comfortability, if one cannot vote by mail during a pandemic then the government should be creating ways they CAN vote safely, and comfortably. We as American's can file our income taxes by mail, or online and the same care should be given to voting.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) announced in May that the state would be sending mail-in ballots to every registered voter in the state, a decision that’s been challenged by the state’s Republican Party.
Newsom’s executive order applied only to the Nov. 3 presidential election. In every other election California voters can request a mail-in ballot without having to cite a reason for doing so.

May be our Gov. was worrying we can't safely vote in person. May be now he would change his mind?

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

@kipari we have very different ideas of what constitutes public settings. A restaurant I would consider public, travel transmission is public, but I don't consider church worship events to be public, as they are social gatherings where people run into other people they know.

I'm confused. Could you please elaborate why our definitions are "very different". I also consider restaurant and travel public.

The church meetings I referred to were very public. A few people in the case in France travelled from Africa to that meeting (it's in the link I provided).

The people who got infected in that one incident brought Covid back to their communities and on their way back devastated the whole "Département" the meeting happened to be held in (=county or small state) via community transmission.

The German-French border was shut due to that public event and the subsequent Covid infections.

 

[scouty]

maybe, my governor is Abbott so I think we can do either.

i think we should have have the opportunity to vote in whatever way one feels comfortable, making elderly people stand on line with masks and 6 feet away from each other may be more than a person in a wheelchair or using a cane, or with breathing problems, cancer etc could stand, they should be allowed to vote by mail and/or absentee ballot, I have always voted by absentee ballot even when i wasn't absent because I have had two hp replacements and standing tooo long hurts. Maybe elderly only hours of voting to avoid the virus and for comfortability, if one cannot vote by mail during a pandemic then the government should be creating ways they CAN vote safely, and comfortably. We as American's can file our income taxes by mail, or online and the same care should be given to voting.

For TX can not request mail in ballot unless you are 65+, disabled, or will be out of state. No exception for Covid concerns. That is the latest I’ve heard for TX... maybe something has changed though.

 

[voce]

I'm confused. Could you please elaborate why our definitions are "very different".

The company meeting, I consider private, and the church meetings, I consider private. They are settings where you are in close contact with people you know.

I consider the public setting a place where you interact primarily with strangers.

Given what we know of droplet distance/volume and music, and the presence of music at church, I think those going to large church gatherings and musical choir practices are putting themselves at great risk.

 

[OboeGal]

"What others put into the air is being forced upon them?"

What can you prove about what is actually in the air? What viral load any one person is adding to the air? You can only come to the logical conclusion that people not wearing masks are putting a larger viral load into the air if you already assume they have the virus. And that is an assumption, not fact.

As to your hypothesis about how there would be far fewer infected people if people only went out to do necessary things and wore masks... That is only one opinion or viewpoint that is far from provable to be correct.

In the community where I currently am, visiting my parents, the majority of COVID-19 cases were spread from person-to-person transmission in the home, not from public settings. I personally have a different opinion, that you initially get the virus from travel, but I suspect it spreads from household to household much more quickly, in private settings, than the public transmission rates from the odd person who doesn't wear a mask in public. Where I am, it's no mask no service and has been like this ever since March, so it's only the odd person who isn't wearing a mask.

I'm not saying that there is no additional risk as a result of people not masking correctly, but the degree of risk they add is not neatly quantifiable. I think you and Kenny are overestimating the risk others bring to you but of course you are entitled to believe whatever you want and judge them killers. I just think that's an unnecessarily extreme response that speaks volumes about paranoia and fear, which are not necessarily justified.

If you want something akin to "proof," look at the differences between per capita cases, hospitalizations, and deaths in the US, where people are much less compliant with reducing unnecessary outings and gatherings, wearing masks, and keeping distance, and various other countries where the population is more compliant with such measures.

You have in-home transmission in every country except China (where at some point infected people were forcibly removed from the home and warehoused elsewhere), but those countries don't have the out-of-control spread we do here. The reasons we are the only first-world country to have out-of-control spread is because people are out in public more (for various reasons), more people refuse to wear masks, and more people refuse to keep distance from others in public.

The reasons they are out in public more are partly institutional - the US isn't providing financial support to those who don't believe it's safe for them to be in the workplace, whereas other countries are doing better at that - and partly social - so many Americans seem to not be able to defer gratification for any reason unless it affects them personally. They demand to get in each others' faces at bars, at parties and gatherings, in stores and restaurants, and proprietors refuse to enforce mask mandates. They demand that their kids MUST have sports RIGHT NOW, as if missing one season of sports will destroy their children's lives. In my neighborhood alone, nearly every weekend there has been at least one big party - frequently multiple, like today - and that has been going on since all this started. I'm talking big parties, with 20-50 people, all up in each others' faces, not a soul wearing a mask. This is not going on to nearly this level in other countries, and they have a much more controlled level of spread to show for it.

Now, some European countries are struggling with some concerning surges of new cases - not nearly at the level that we have been, though - and their public health experts have been very clear that the reason is people, especially young people, going out unnecessarily to socialize and recreate, often without masks or appropriate distancing. Local public health experts here in the US are clear, too, that the reasons we are having such uncontrolled spread is too many people going out unnecessarily, and not properly masking and keeping distance when they are out, whether for necessary or unnecessary reasons. I certainly hope you aren't going to claim that public health experts and epidemiologists, here and in other countries, don't know what they're talking about or how to quantify these risks.

 

[voce]

so many Americans seem to not be able to defer gratification for any reason unless it affects them personally. They demand to get in each others' faces at bars, at parties and gatherings, in stores and restaurants, and proprietors refuse to enforce mask mandates. They demand that their kids MUST have sports RIGHT NOW, as if missing one season of sports will destroy their children's lives. In my neighborhood alone, nearly every weekend there has been at least one big party - frequently multiple, like today - and that has been going on since all this started. I'm talking big parties, with 20-50 people, all up in each others' faces, not a soul wearing a mask. This is not going on to nearly this level in other countries, and they have a much more controlled level of spread to show for it.

I'm sorry. What you're experiencing is completely counter to my own experience. I've never seen people get into each other's faces in stores or at restaurants. Most parents in our school districts are requesting online learning, not demanding sports to resume. I agree this behavior is quite deplorable.

Now, some European countries are struggling with some concerning surges of new cases - not nearly at the level that we have been, though - and their public health experts have been very clear that the reason is people, especially young people, going out unnecessarily to socialize and recreate, often without masks or appropriate distancing. Local public health experts here in the US are clear, too, that the reasons we are having such uncontrolled spread is too many people going out unnecessarily, and not properly masking and keeping distance when they are out, whether for necessary or unnecessary reasons. I certainly hope you aren't going to claim that public health experts and epidemiologists, here and in other countries, don't know what they're talking about or how to quantify these risks.

I don't deny this. However--surges of new cases is different from every person not masking up being a killer, which is what you and Kenny seem to be saying.

 

[OboeGal]

I don't deny this. However--surges of new cases is different from every person not masking up being a killer, which is what you and Kenny seem to be saying.

Ah, I see where there may have been a "disconnect" in our communication here. While I can't speak for Kenny, I'm not saying that "every person not masking up [is] being a killer," in a literal sense, any more than I would say that every person drunk driving is a killer. I am saying that people not masking up, etc., who know they are supposed to are behaving selfishly and irresponsibly, and are contributing to the increased community spread that is endangering lives and long-term well-being.