IYO, should in-person schools (K through post Ph.D) open now?

[ItsMainelyYou]

The company meeting, I consider private, and the church meetings, I consider private. They are settings where you are in close contact with people you know.

I consider the public setting a place where you interact primarily with strangers.

Given what we know of droplet distance/volume and music, and the presence of music at church, I think those going to large church gatherings and musical choir practices are putting themselves at great risk.

Knowing someone doesn't mitigate spread of communicable disease. In fact, it can be a factor increasing your chance of infection.
Church and family gatherings has been the impetus for several super spreader events.

Coronavirus super-spreader events all have notable similarities — and they reveal the types of gatherings we should avoid for years

Super-spreader events involve lots of people getting infected by one person with the coronavirus. Most are large, indoor gatherings.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[OboeGal]

I'm sorry. What you're experiencing is completely counter to my own experience. I've never seen people get into each other's faces in stores or at restaurants. Most parents in our school districts are requesting online learning, not demanding sports to resume. I agree this behavior is quite deplorable.

Thank you for the support! Yes, it's really bad around here. It's even worse in other counties around the state, where the rates of new cases and hospitalizations is really skyrocketing. They're all rural counties, and state public health officials are concerned because people there are outright refusing, en masse, to mask or to stop having large gatherings packed in together with no masks. They are insistent that it's "just a Democratic hoax" and "their freedom" and "it's not as bad as the flu" and all that garbage. It's enraging and terrifying to live here. I think we need to go to the part of the country where you are!

 

[voce]

I am saying that people not masking up, etc., who know they are supposed to are behaving selfishly and irresponsibly, and are contributing to the increased community spread that is endangering lives and long-term well-being.

I agree with this. I am glad that the disconnect was resolved.

 

[voce]

Knowing someone doesn't mitigate spread of communicable disease. In fact, it can be a factor increasing your chance of infection.
Church and family gatherings has been the impetus for several super spreader events.

Coronavirus super-spreader events all have notable similarities — and they reveal the types of gatherings we should avoid for years

Super-spreader events involve lots of people getting infected by one person with the coronavirus. Most are large, indoor gatherings.

www.businessinsider.com

I never expressed a view implying knowing someone motivated spread of communicable disease.

I said that I consider the work meeting where Germany's patient 0 spread it to others, and the church super spreader events private settings, and I said that I suspect the virus transmission rate is much higher at private settings than in public ones where you predominantly encounter strangers and are supposed to mask up.

 

[Queenie60]

@1ofakind, @whitewave and @MamaBee have talked about their experience with this virus. If you read their posts and failed to realize how awful this experience has been for them, you are lacking empathy and compassion. I’ve read your posts regarding COVID-19. You are quite clear with articulating your opinions.

My nephew has the virus. We are waiting to find out if he now tests negative after a positive test a few weeks ago. This is a nerve wracking experience for all involved, not just the person who is sick.

Willful ignorance seldom works out well in circumstances like a pandemic. I hope things continue to work out well for you. I would never wish harm on anyone.

I am sorry to hear about your nephew. Hope it all ends well. Take care.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

I never expressed a view implying knowing someone motivated spread of communicable disease.

I said that I consider the work meeting where Germany's patient 0 spread it to others, and the church super spreader events private settings, and I said that I suspect the virus transmission rate is much higher at private settings than in public ones where you predominantly encounter strangers and are supposed to mask up.

Noted! That actually wasn't a personal implication, I was referring to the many private family events that have led to documented mass infection. Apologies if I was unclear and misunderstood your statement.

 

[Queenie60]

Yup, If the liberal HERD don't agree with your post they'll report you to the admin, believe me I know... but don't let them stop you from posting b/c that's what they want. The few conservatives who used to post here all headed for the hills,b/c they can't take the heat.

It's not about "not being able to take the heat" as it's more about my use of time and energy. It's just not worth it to me to argue with disgruntled and angry people. I'm not angry and don't hold a grudge for anyones opinion. I simply choose to not participate.

 

[Tekate]

Saying that you don't take some posters as serious is a judgement call, it is saying you consider their opinion worthless. I put your post in quotations, so you can read what I thought was unkind and dismissive. I don't know if we are going round on semantics.

Great example....I didn'y worthless. YOU did and put it in quotations, attributing it to me and then saying it is unkind and dismissive.

 

[Tekate]

Well maybe they should have said 'akin' to murder, we don't know if a person who has or will die from Covid-19 picked the virus up from a person who didn't want to wear a mask or from somewhere else, we all know now that people who have no symptoms and don't know they have the virus can infect an unsuspecting person and THAT person may die from the virus, that is serious, that is why people are asked to wear their masks to ensure they inadvertently do not spread the virus to someone who could and may die from the virus.

Definition of AKIN

related by blood : descended from a common ancestor or prototype; essentially similar, related, or compatible… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I'm sorry. What you're experiencing is completely counter to my own experience. I've never seen people get into each other's faces in stores or at restaurants. Most parents in our school districts are requesting online learning, not demanding sports to resume. I agree this behavior is quite deplorable.


I don't deny this. However--surges of new cases is different from every person not masking up being a killer, which is what you and Kenny seem to be saying.

 

[1ofakind]

Saying that you don't take some posters as serious is a judgement call, it is saying you consider their opinion worthless. I put your post in quotations, so you can read what I thought was unkind and dismissive. I don't know if we are going round on semantics.

It’s not semantics. You made up your interpretation as “worthless”, put THAT word in quotes and then said it was unkind and dismissive of me to say it. And I never did!!! Geesh...this Isn’t that hard. I don’t have to defend myself against YOUR interpretations. Your interpretations may be wrong but no matter...you’re going to now use it as a quote and attribute it to me anyway. If I wanted to say their opinions are worthless I would have. But I didn’t. This is pretty basic grammar stuff. You can’t put in quotes things that I didn’t say. Quotes mean that I DID say it myself. Please stop doing that.

Maybe you’ll see it this way. My interpretation of your post is that you think it’s ok to drown puppies. I think it is a cruel and heartless thing for you to say ‘it’s ok to drown puppies’. Why did you say that cruel and heartless thing?

 

[voce]

Well maybe they should have said 'akin' to murder, we don't know if a person who has or will die from Covid-19 picked the virus up from a person who didn't want to wear a mask or from somewhere else, we all know now that people who have no symptoms and don't know they have the virus can infect an unsuspecting person and THAT person may die from the virus, that is serious, that is why people are asked to wear their masks to ensure they inadvertently do not spread the virus to someone who could and may die from the virus.

Definition of AKIN

related by blood : descended from a common ancestor or prototype; essentially similar, related, or compatible… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

If you are saying "akin to murder" that's still totally wrong because you would be making unjustified assumptions and accusations and only trying to sanitize how you phrase it, not correcting your way of thinking.

If you get COVID, you shouldn't assume it's come from someone who didn't wear a mask. Honestly, masks only stop 50%-80% of microdroplets. Someone who's talking at you through a mask is still going to exude 100x-1000x more microdroplets into the air through the mask than the person keeping their mouth shut not talking breathing normally without a mask. This is based on the article of the scientific simulation that I linked.

Honestly, I think a lot of people assume it's OK to approach strangers and talk to them as long as it's through a mask. I'd rather stay as much as possible out of situations where other people are talking to me, because someone talking through a mask poses more danger, than the person not wearing a mask and only breathing normally, not talking.

 

[OboeGal]

If you are saying "akin to murder" that's still totally wrong because you would be making unjustified assumptions and accusations and only trying to sanitize how you phrase it, not correcting your way of thinking.

If you get COVID, you shouldn't assume it's come from someone who didn't wear a mask. Honestly, masks only stop 50%-80% of microdroplets. Someone who's talking at you through a mask is still going to exude 100x-1000x more microdroplets into the air through the mask than the person keeping their mouth shut not talking breathing normally without a mask. This is based on the article of the scientific simulation that I linked.

Honestly, I think a lot of people assume it's OK to approach strangers and talk to them as long as it's through a mask. I'd rather stay as much as possible out of situations where other people are talking to me, because someone talking through a mask poses more danger, than the person not wearing a mask and only breathing normally, not talking.

Thank you for bringing up a very important point: masks are not enough on their own, and especially not in an indoor setting. If they were, we wouldn't have healthcare workers in N-95s still getting infected and dying. They are meant as one layer in a set of risk mitigation strategies. They reduce the number of viral particles emitted, but don't eliminate them. They reduce the number inhaled, but do not eliminate them. Hopefully, this means that the total initial viral dose inhaled is either below the threshold needed to get sick, or low enough to reduce the severity of illness. Distancing is still our most important and efficacious tool - the more, the better. All the way at home or out in the wilderness, the best. This is why I harp so much on not going out for nonessential trips, especially ones that will put you in contact indoors. The only safe thing is to stay home away from anyone who might be infected. Everything else, you're taking the risk of getting infected.

Outdoors is MUCH better than indoors, but you still have to keep distance, keep moving if possible, keep the duration of contact short, and be masked. These gatherings with friends outdoors six feet apart, standing or sitting for some time chatting away? Not safe. Safer than indoors or closer together, but not safe. Too many viral particles can gather when people are talking and breathing in the same area for a prolonged period of time - especially multiple people. It can overwhelm the ability of outdoor air currents to keep the concentration of viral particles low enough. Add in drinks or food, requiring temporary removal of masks......you get the picture.

The latest studies are indicating that more of the virus is aerosolized even outside of high-risk medical procedures than we used to think, and that it can travel further from infected people. This means that the six foot guideline indoors, even with masks, is inadequate, especially over a longer duration. It also means that there may be NO safe distance indoors from an infected person, because indoor air circulation systems, whether for heating or cooling, will spread the viral particles all over the room anyway. Remember that as we go into winter in the Northern Hemisphere and the holidays. If you love your relatives and dearest friends, the best way to show that for the holidays is to NOT gather with them in person, at least indoors.

 

[seaurchin]

2020 is definitely the year from hell. Hopefully, we all work together to make 2021 brighter, all the way around.

 

[missy]

2020 is definitely the year from hell. Hopefully, we all work together to make 2021 brighter, all the way around.

Agreed!

This sums up 2020 so far IMO.




Here's to a happier, healthier and safer more joyous 2021. And let's all get through 2020 and be stronger and better for it.

 

[missy]

My alma mater just announced they would be doing online education only for the fall semester.

Columbia University Will Move All Undergraduate Instruction Online For Fall Semester

"With few undergraduate students living on campus, we have decided that all undergraduate courses will be virtual," the university president said.

gothamist.com

"
In a significant reversal, Columbia University said Friday that all undergraduate courses would be conducted online for the upcoming fall semester. The university is also backing away from its plan to bring back 60% of its undergraduate students to campus, a decision which drew sharp criticism from the community.
Lee Bollinger, the university president, sent an email to students informing them of the new decision.
"With few undergraduate students living on campus, we have decided that all undergraduate courses will be virtual," he said.
While he noted that Columbia had the "physical capacity to conduct many undergraduate courses in person," he said that because students would be spread across so many locations and under different circumstances, that "online instruction is the only realistic approach."
Bollinger attributed part of the reason for the change to New York's strict 14-day quarantine requirement that has applied to more than 30 U.S. states or territories with high infection levels.


"While I am supportive of the measures New York State has imposed, and while I have no doubt that we could ensure a safe quarantine period from a public health standpoint, two weeks is a long time to endure isolation, especially for students who will be leaving home for the first time."
Columbia now joins a list of other major universities, including Harvard, Princeton, and Johns Hopkins, that have decided to move exclusively to online instruction.
Unlike Harvard, however, Columbia will allow graduate schools to hold in-person classes. Bollinger said that "approximately 40 percent of all graduate courses offered this fall will be hybrid or in-person," including his own First Amendment course at Columbia Law School.
From the start, Columbia's decision to conduct in-person classes was fraught with controversy. Neighbors, led by the Morningside Heights Community Coalition, expressed concern that the return of so many students from across the country would endanger the health of residents.
The university initially gave faculty a choice of teaching in-person or virtually, but when too few signed up for the former, a Columbia official late last month sent an email strongly encouraging its college faculty and teaching assistants to hold in-person classes.
“We will be safer in class than in grocery stores," wrote Amy Hugerford, Columbia's executive vice president of arts and sciences.
The missive caused an uproar among faculty members, some of whom accused the university of valuing money over their safety. The need to offer in-person classes was all the more pressing for first-year international students, who cannot quality for a student visa if their classes are only online.
And last Friday, Columbia angered international graduate students after announcing that it would pay doctoral students to teach only if they are in the United States. Many students who returned to their homes abroad had intended to teach remotely.
Facing pressure, officials on Monday said they would walk back the plan and issue a new policy.
Columbia's decision will likely put further pressure on New York University, which has said it would offer a mix of online and in-person classes in the fall. NYU has already announced undergraduate move-in days, which included early dates this month for those who would need to quarantine.
Governor Andrew Cuomo has said that any college reopening plan must be approved by the state Department of Health.


"

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Thank you for bringing up a very important point: masks are not enough on their own, and especially not in an indoor setting. If they were, we wouldn't have healthcare workers in N-95s still getting infected and dying. They are meant as one layer in a set of risk mitigation strategies. They reduce the number of viral particles emitted, but don't eliminate them. They reduce the number inhaled, but do not eliminate them. Hopefully, this means that the total initial viral dose inhaled is either below the threshold needed to get sick, or low enough to reduce the severity of illness. Distancing is still our most important and efficacious tool - the more, the better. All the way at home or out in the wilderness, the best. This is why I harp so much on not going out for nonessential trips, especially ones that will put you in contact indoors. The only safe thing is to stay home away from anyone who might be infected. Everything else, you're taking the risk of getting infected.

Outdoors is MUCH better than indoors, but you still have to keep distance, keep moving if possible, keep the duration of contact short, and be masked. These gatherings with friends outdoors six feet apart, standing or sitting for some time chatting away? Not safe. Safer than indoors or closer together, but not safe. Too many viral particles can gather when people are talking and breathing in the same area for a prolonged period of time - especially multiple people. It can overwhelm the ability of outdoor air currents to keep the concentration of viral particles low enough. Add in drinks or food, requiring temporary removal of masks......you get the picture.

The latest studies are indicating that more of the virus is aerosolized even outside of high-risk medical procedures than we used to think, and that it can travel further from infected people. This means that the six foot guideline indoors, even with masks, is inadequate, especially over a longer duration. It also means that there may be NO safe distance indoors from an infected person, because indoor air circulation systems, whether for heating or cooling, will spread the viral particles all over the room anyway. Remember that as we go into winter in the Northern Hemisphere and the holidays. If you love your relatives and dearest friends, the best way to show that for the holidays is to NOT gather with them in person, at least indoors.

Great post , @OboeGal.

@voce , I hear you, too.

I'm reluctant to post, because things are very emotional, heated and also politicized around this topic.

I M O the topic of viral load/exposure etc seems to be much more nuanced and different factors come into play (strain of COVID, personal health risk factors etc etc).

I have anecdotal knowledge of now 4 families where one member was exposed, infected and fell ill (died in two cases) and no other family members got COVID. Not just asymptomatic, but three negative tests AND antibody tests.
In the case of our good friend he went to pick up his daughter in the most contagious phase. It was the beginning, very very mild symptoms (a normal headache that one can't attribute to COVID) .
He picked up his daughter and they had a 4 hour car ride together.
She didn't get it.

On the other hand there's the salt shaker story.

So my conclusion is that you'll not necessarily infect everyone around you. But you could.

So to me it's important that the public guidelines be as clear and as strict as possible.

People are not to be trusted. They will go right to the limit of what's legally ok.
If one wants people to put on masks in crowded areas, designate all places with crowds mask only areas.
People may still take them off, but if it's wishy washy, people just don't use them.

Same with gatherings indoors. Limit them as much as possible.

Once you say it's ok, people with throw a party and sweat and dance together.

In short: common sense is a rare trait these days and where people cannot be trusted there need to be checks and balances.

 

[missy]

People are not to be trusted. They will go right to the limit of what's legally ok.

@kipari I agree completely and will take it one step further. Many will take advantage any way they can and if they can get away with not wearing a mask they will not wear masks. If they can get away with not quarantining they will not quarantine. That is why I am so annoyed at the governors in NJ and NY. Who fell short of mandating mask usage. They "strongly suggest" it but have not made it mandatory. Yes, individual stores can and do make it mandatory but I feel it should be at a higher level and that everyone should wear a mask in crowds outside and it goes without saying inside masks need to be worn. Period.

In short: common sense is a rare trait these days and where people cannot be trusted there need to be checks and balances.

Indeed. Common sense is anything but common.

 

[seaurchin]

Hell's Bells, or should I say Hell's Angels. Did anyone google the biker rally in Sturgis, South Dakota last week?

So many aging, unhealthy looking, largely unmasked people crammed so close together for ten days straight. What kind of idiot leadership would allow that?

Soon we'll start hearing about the rise in Covid-19 cases from it. And, of course, then the death toll.

On a lighter note, a bunch of them decided to play with the wild bison in the area. One woman got too close to a bison's calf and Mama bison pulled the woman's pants off in retaliation.

Bison rips pants off woman in violent attack caught on video

A furious bison knocked out a motorcyclist who came too close to her calf — and added insult to injury by pantsing her too, startling video shows. The beast attacked the 54-year-old Iowa woman at C…

nypost.com

 

[GliderPoss]

Depends where you are but in Australia (Melbourne excepted) it's probably by and large fairly safe. Seems schools have a low Covid-19 spreading rate despite little kids having crappy social-distancing awareness. Most schools I think have reopened anyway or were always open for "essential workers".

Certainly from my own family experience (6 nieces & nephews all in primary) all my sisters said despite best efforts - all their kids school work suffered immensely during remote learning and they struggled to achieve anything of value along with attempting WFH etc... One sister basically gave up half way through the term with her youngest! I think only one of the kids enjoyed it (anxious kid) and the rest really missed the routine, discipline and social aspects. They sent the kids back as soon as it was feasible/safe.