It Finally Happened

[minousbijoux]

I am really disappointed but somehow not surprised I recently bought a heated pad sapphire on ebay - I should've known it was too beautiful. I've bought multiple items from this vendor and had finally worked up the confidence to purchase some bigger ticket items, including the sapphire. I sent the stones off to the GIA and just got word today that while the other items are as represented, the sapphire has been lattice diffused. I know I'm not supposed to fall in love, but I did. I want to give the vendor the benefit of the doubt, but its so disappointing. I know its not cost effective to test all their stones, but gah!

So now where do I go to find my padparadscha? *quietly sniffling over keyboard...*

 

[Treenbean]

I'm soo sorry It is heart breaking, especially since you love the stone.
I hope they didn't represent it as non-treated. If they did that is a whole can of worms.
As for finding another what are the specs?

 

[Aoife]

Minou, how disillusioning, especially since this was from a vendor that you had developed some trust in. I'm so sorry.

Was the pad represented as being completely untreated?

If you can give us all an idea of some general preferences regarding size, perhaps we could keep an eye open for another stone that hasn't been diffused. It's certainly a heads-up for all of us to be cautious when dealing with sapphires.

 

[minousbijoux]

Thanks, Treenbean, its so nice to come to a place where folks really understand and sympathize...

I wish I could figure out the whole photos thing and I would definitely share pix, but for now, it was just under 3 carats, and that perfect pastel, pinky orange (or maybe orangey pink?). I would describe it as very strong but not vivid in saturation and VVS in clarity. It is a long deep, cushion about 9 x 6, 80% (its why I thought it was so sparkly). I see a lot of pads that are borderline pink (like bright melon color) and this one was what I think of as the classic, hard to find pad color, not the bright, intense pink. Thankfully, I had no plans for it at this time. But I am always on the lookout for cushions and chunky cushions of the classic pad color. I am willing to settle for heated, but look where it just got me...

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi Aiofe , thanks!

No, my bad for taking the risk. They were upfront in saying it was heated, but just because the vendor has a report that says "Indications of heat treatment" doesn't mean there haven't been additional treatments. So we made a deal that if it was treated, they would take it back and reimburse me for the cost plus the GIA report. I feel bad for them for being out of pocket, but on the other hand - as we have discussed many times on this forum - how many people purchasing stones on ebay bother to send them off to the GIA, and perhaps just unknowingly live with doctored stones? I guess I'm not surprised - sometimes you get good deals on ebay and sometimes you don't. So far, the vendor has been a peach to work with, and we'll see what happens.

But it makes me feel much better to get your responses!

-Minou

 

[Michael_E]

it was just under 3 carats, and that perfect pastel, pinky orange (or maybe orangey pink?).

What did it cost? If it was under about $3,000 per carat, then you shouldn't be too surprised, since that's where top end, bonafide pad's, as you're describing, start, (and go up from there). People seem to rarely mention price when bringing up their disappointments, but the price is often the main factor which would let you know that what you're being offered has probably been treated. I know that everyone here looks down their noses at treated stones, but you may have actually gotten a pretty good deal, price wise, since these really nice looking treated pad's are increasing in value everywhere but right here.

 

[baby nurse]

Minou, somebody here (I think Rockhugger?) got a really pretty padparadscha a few months ago from a gemologist she felt comfortable purchasing from. I don't remember the particulars, but she got the stone for a very reasonable price, and I think it may have had gentle heat treatment only. I'm quite sure it was something benign. I contacted him and he had other stones to offer, again reasonable prices but more than I could pay at the time. I will look up the name and let you know... I think it was from early fall.

 

[T L]

this one was what I think of as the classic, hard to find pad color, not the bright, intense pink.

I'm so sorry minousbijoux, but those are the colors you really need to stay away from with padparadschas. When they look to be that perfect color, it seems they're diffused. The first one that Tgal bought (and returned after the lab looked at it), and the one that LTP knowingly obtained as treated, both looked to be that perfect pad color, and they ended up being diffused. I hope you can get a refund from the seller, or at least a credit from him if you do keep the stone.

It seems to me, although it's not definitive proof of non-treatment, but the ones that have a touch of brown or are very desaturated, seem to be natural in color, or just heated without diffusion. As always, padparadschas are one of the most difficult stones to buy due to the vague definition and the extremely rare perfect combination of orange-pink without brown in just the right tone and saturation.

 

[T L]

Minou, somebody here (I think Rockhugger?) got a really pretty padparadscha a few months ago from a gemologist she felt comfortable purchasing from. I don't remember the particulars, but she got the stone for a very reasonable price, and I think it may have had gentle heat treatment only. I'm quite sure it was something benign. I contacted him and he had other stones to offer, again reasonable prices but more than I could pay at the time. I will look up the name and let you know... I think it was from early fall.

You can contact her at rockhugger.com. She can probably get more from her source, and I believe she can detect non-treatment via her microscopic equipment. However, a lab report is a must. Don't ask me how I know this, can't say, but I do know that her source for padparadschas obtains them from the same place that NSC obtains theirs. He's cheaper though. He only sells wholesale however.

 

[VapidLapid]

alas, rockhugger.com is disabled.

Minous Im so sorry to hear this story. Pads are the most difficult and contentious subject. I hope the vendor honors their deal.

 

[JewelFreak]

I'm so sorry, Minou. Big bummer especially when you've fallen in love. It is a lesson for us all -- you've done that good deed the hard way. Good news though that the vendor is being stand-up about taking it back & reimbursing you. Hang in there -- the One will come along.

--- Laurie

 

[T L]

alas, rockhugger.com is disabled.

Minous Im so sorry to hear this story. Pads are the most difficult and contentious subject. I hope the vendor honors their deal.

Her ebay store is therockhugger, so you can contact her that way too. It's worth a try.

 

[minousbijoux]

Yes, TL, I should've known by the color! (I have been remembering all your cautionary words about buying stones, particularly sapphires). Since the only pad I have is a smaller unheated one of a gorgeous color that fooled everyone into thinking it was heated (and Michael, you can find them for less than $3K/ct), and since so many of the unheated ones I've seen are either dissipated or over the top in color (i.e. bright pink), I should've known that it was more than heat! I just naively thought, "wow, heat sure perks stones up." Doh!

Hopefully, I'll hear back from the vendor soon.

 

[Pandora II]

Minou, somebody here (I think Rockhugger?) got a really pretty padparadscha a few months ago from a gemologist she felt comfortable purchasing from. I don't remember the particulars, but she got the stone for a very reasonable price, and I think it may have had gentle heat treatment only. I'm quite sure it was something benign. I contacted him and he had other stones to offer, again reasonable prices but more than I could pay at the time. I will look up the name and let you know... I think it was from early fall.

You can contact her at rockhugger.com. She can probably get more from her source, and I believe she can detect non-treatment via her microscopic equipment. However, a lab report is a must. Don't ask me how I know this, can't say, but I do know that her source for padparadschas obtains them from the same place that NSC obtains theirs. He's cheaper though. He only sells wholesale however.

To detect things like Be diffusion you need to test using things like LIBS (Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy), LA-ICP-MS (Laser Ablation Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry) or SIMS (Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry) - a microscope is totally useless.

However, detecting surface diffusion is pretty easy - immersing the stone in di-iodomethane or even water or baby-oil should show the surface-conformal color zoning. The colour will concentrate along the edges of the facets.

 

[VapidLapid]

Pandora, I thought Be was a type of lattice diffusion, one that diffuses beryllium into the crystal lattice, where as other types use other elements like titanium. In all of them I thought the element may change but the basic mechanism remains the same. The stones are heated with the diffusing material, some of which vaporizes and can enter into the crystal lattice and from there migrate deep into the internal structure. What is the difference?

 

[minousbijoux]

Between you all and the vendor's response, my faith in humanity has been restored! Here is the vendor's response:

"Hi Minou, i am so sorry about the sapphire, it makes me so upset that the broker i purchased from would mis-represent the gem to me. I will of course refund you in full and also pay you the cost of the GIA report for the sapphire. I will indeed be returning it myself to the broker i purchased from."

Hopefully, no harm no foul and I can continue on with this vendor.

 

[Pandora II]

Pandora, I thought Be was a type of lattice diffusion, one that diffuses beryllium into the crystal lattice, where as other types use other elements like titanium. In all of them I thought the element may change but the basic mechanism remains the same. The stones are heated with the diffusing material, some of which vaporizes and can enter into the crystal lattice and from there migrate deep into the internal structure. What is the difference?

Ugh, thanks VL - I meant 'surface' not lattice diffusion... have ammended.

Sorry, am ill with piggy flu!

ETA: Nice response from the vendor!

 

[Michael_E]

(and Michael, you can find them for less than $3K/ct)

Really? Please don't keep it a secret. I've been looking for some of these for years and can't find anything much less than that for a real pad. Pink, sure. Orange, certainly. A real padparadscha?, in over 2 carats?... not yet. Once you've found yours, let me know where and I'll be indebted forever!

 

[minousbijoux]

Okay, be certain that you will be the first to know when I find a regular and reliable source of perfect and inexpensive stones

 

[serenitydiamonds]

it was just under 3 carats, and that perfect pastel, pinky orange (or maybe orangey pink?).

What did it cost? If it was under about $3,000 per carat, then you shouldn't be too surprised, since that's where top end, bonafide pad's, as you're describing, start, (and go up from there). People seem to rarely mention price when bringing up their disappointments, but the price is often the main factor which would let you know that what you're being offered has probably been treated. I know that everyone here looks down their noses at treated stones, but you may have actually gotten a pretty good deal, price wise, since these really nice looking treated pad's are increasing in value everywhere but right here.

+1
Top quality material is known as such, sold as such, and priced accordingly.

--Joshua

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi Pandora Thanks so much for your comments. I am always up for a good experiment. So does this mean that when I get it back from the GIA I can have some teachable moments with it before I send it back? So if I take a plain glass jar and fill it with either water or baby oil and then drop in the stone, I should be able to see more intense color at the surface and at facet meets? Is that what I'd be looking for? It would be great to add another little trick to my tiny arsenal of gem techniques...we can call this gem has a spa day...
TIA

 

[Pandora II]

Hi Pandora Thanks so much for your comments. I am always up for a good experiment. So does this mean that when I get it back from the GIA I can have some teachable moments with it before I send it back? So if I take a plain glass jar and fill it with either water or baby oil and then drop in the stone, I should be able to see more intense color at the surface and at facet meets? Is that what I'd be looking for? It would be great to add another little trick to my tiny arsenal of gem techniques...we can call this gem has a spa day...
TIA

You could have a go and see if you see anything, but depends on the depth of the lattice diffusion. These days it's generally pretty thick so I doubt you'll see anything.

If you want to try then you need a glass dish or small jar - fill with water or baby oil and place stone in it table down. You then need to place a diffused light underneath - something like a light box or a torch with a tissue over the top. If there is something to see it will be a kind of spider-web effect where the edges of the facets are darker than the facet faces. This is because the stones are repolished after treating and the polishing will remove some of the diffused layer.

 

[T L]

Minou, somebody here (I think Rockhugger?) got a really pretty padparadscha a few months ago from a gemologist she felt comfortable purchasing from. I don't remember the particulars, but she got the stone for a very reasonable price, and I think it may have had gentle heat treatment only. I'm quite sure it was something benign. I contacted him and he had other stones to offer, again reasonable prices but more than I could pay at the time. I will look up the name and let you know... I think it was from early fall.

You can contact her at rockhugger.com. She can probably get more from her source, and I believe she can detect non-treatment via her microscopic equipment. However, a lab report is a must. Don't ask me how I know this, can't say, but I do know that her source for padparadschas obtains them from the same place that NSC obtains theirs. He's cheaper though. He only sells wholesale however.

To detect things like Be diffusion you need to test using things like LIBS (Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy), LA-ICP-MS (Laser Ablation Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry) or SIMS (Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry) - a microscope is totally useless.

However, detecting surface diffusion is pretty easy - immersing the stone in di-iodomethane or even water or baby-oil should show the surface-conformal color zoning. The colour will concentrate along the edges of the facets.

I believe you can detect no heat treatment with microscopic equipment, at least that's what some gemologists have told me. If it's heated though, then you do need the LIBS or LA-ICP-MS. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think Rockhugger only buys them untreated.

 

[LD]

I don't believe (and again will be interested to hear what Pandora knows) that any form of heat treatment can be ruled out by microscopic investigation only. I think that you can get an indication BUT because rutile melts at a different point from heat treatment this doesn't rule out treatment? I think Pandora's recent post on the melting points meant this was the case. I've got hangover head so can't be bothered to look it up now.

p.s. Pandora sorry to hear about the piggy flu. I had it last year (from my daughter) and it's nasty - even though ours was only a mild case.

 

[LD]

Between you all and the vendor's response, my faith in humanity has been restored! Here is the vendor's response:

"Hi Minou, i am so sorry about the sapphire, it makes me so upset that the broker i purchased from would mis-represent the gem to me. I will of course refund you in full and also pay you the cost of the GIA report for the sapphire. I will indeed be returning it myself to the broker i purchased from."

Hopefully, no harm no foul and I can continue on with this vendor.

What an upstanding Vendor. No quibble. No question. Does the right thing.

Minous would you be prepared to share the Vendor name at some point because he/she seems like an honest individual who, in this case, has been duped themselves. However, the fact that they want to do the right thing speaks volumes.

I'm sorry you've had this trouble and I hope you find a lovely Pad but I have to say that the price will always be a good indicator!

 

[Pandora II]

Analysis of inclusions is what you use to look for evidence of heat-treatment. Things like needle inclusions (such as rutile) that instead of being clean and straight are broken into little pieces where they have started to melt and heal (looks a bit like dotted or dashed lines instead of a solid line), halos around internal zircon crystals etc

As I put in other posts, presence of rutile inclusions doesn't mean that the stone hasn't been heated as it doesn't melt until 1400 degrees and stones can commonly be heated to 1100 to improve colour.

I'd want a lab report for an expensive stone - preferably AGL.

Thanks LD - it's not nice I agree! DH has had it since Xmas Eve, I got it on Monday and Daisy onThursday - we're all feeling better but a bit shattered. Just glad we've got it out of the way as they're saying it won't peak here in the UK for another 3-4 weeks. Since it's not mutating we should be immune now in case it comes back in a nastier form later in the year.

 

[T L]

Analysis of inclusions is what you use to look for evidence of heat-treatment. Things like needle inclusions (such as rutile) that instead of being clean and straight are broken into little pieces where they have started to melt and heal (looks a bit like dotted or dashed lines instead of a solid line), halos around internal zircon crystals etc

As I put in other posts, presence of rutile inclusions doesn't mean that the stone hasn't been heated as it doesn't melt until 1400 degrees and stones can commonly be heated to 1100 to improve colour.

I'd want a lab report for an expensive stone - preferably AGL.

Thanks LD - it's not nice I agree! DH has had it since Xmas Eve, I got it on Monday and Daisy onThursday - we're all feeling better but a bit shattered. Just glad we've got it out of the way as they're saying it won't peak here in the UK for another 3-4 weeks. Since it's not mutating we should be immune now in case it comes back in a nastier form later in the year.

Thanks Pandora, and for any expensive colored gem (outside of colored diamond), I would agree that AGL is the way to go.

 

[chrono]

MB,
I’m sorry about how the stone turned out but at least, you set the stipulation up front and you aren’t being taken to the bank because you did your due diligence.

 

[minousbijoux]

You know what I love about PS/CS? its equal parts bling, empathy, and education! Where else can you get all that?

Thanks for the kind words and Pandora, thanks for the great information - now I'm going to spend my time looking at sapphires for dashed lines like passing lanes on freeways

LD: I absolutely will share the vendor with you - it will be my honor. But let me first get the gem shipped back to them and the transaction completed. The minute everything is squared away, you can bet I'll spill it! I'm pretty sure they have two stores on ebay.

 

[Lovinggems]

I have nothing new to say but that I'm happy you dodged an expensive bullet, and stressed the importance of getting an expensive purchase lab tested.