Issue with tenants: what would you do?

[tuffyluvr]

We own a duplex--we live in the owners unit downstairs and we rent the upstairs unit to a family. They are very nice people, and for the most part, good tenants. However, we have had several issues with them clogging the plumbing this year. First they clogged the sink by dumping a bunch of old pasta, rice and potato peels. Then we had to have a plumber out right before Christmas because our drains were running really slow--we never found out what caused that, so we can't be certain it was them, but we suspect it was because we are really neurotic about not putting stuff down the sink and toilet.

Today I woke up to the worst yet: it was like a sh!t avalanche in our bathroom! The bathtub and sink were filled with sewage water, and the toilet overflowed poopy water all over the bathroom floor and leaked into our office too. Worst of all, we went diving yesterday and because it rained last night, after we rinsed our scuba gear we put in the bathtub to dry off. Literally thousands of dollars worth of gear marinated in raw sewage.

When the plumber rootered the main line he found it clogged all the way to the street with paper towels, baby wipes and tampons--we NEVER flush those things. It took me 4 hours to clean up and decontaminate the terrible mess, plus the plumber was $130.

We have paid for the plumber the last 2 times, but we are thinking about charging the tenants for this one. We have had several conversations with them about being very conservative about what they flush--our house was built in 1922 and the plumbing is old and sensitive. Our concern is that unless we charge them they will not take this seriously. However, we know money is tight for them and we like them and want to keep them as tenants. We were going to offer to let them pay it off next month of even in a couple installments.

What would you do? Do you think it's outrageous to ask them to pay the bill??

 

[aviastar]

Personally, I think that's very reasonable. Legally (and I am no lawyer), I think you have to go back to your renter contract and see if there is anything specific that covers willfully not following routine maintenance of the unit. Sounds like if you could prove that you had been very specific about drain usage you could hold this out of their security deposit, at the very least, if not have them pay for it outright.

If you don't have a contract or a clause that covers you, I think you can ask them to pay but they could say no and you wouldn't have much legal backing to collect it. I don't know where you live, but most places have very strict and specific tenant laws, so that might be worth looking into as well. Hopefully you ask, and they say yes, both in the interest of maintaining a friendly working relationship.

It's a really tough spot, cause you don't want to lose a good tenant who just has this one little issue...but the one little issue isn't exactly little at this point. Best of luck!

 

[justginger]

Gah! How frustrating for you! I hope your diving equipment wasn't ruined. I would definitely let them know that they either caused, or could have caused, you to lose thousands of dollars of equipment, had your office carpet replaced, had the room professionally decontaminated, etc. Working in microbiology, with a husband in enteric, I know what sort of stuff is in that water. It's not to be taken lightly - it is a health risk. I would have a very strongly worded conversation (or letter) with them, let them know that if it happens again in the future, you intend to bill them for the entirety of the damages. But for this time, you'll let them off with a warning and the plumber's bill. Since this has happened in the past, I honestly feel like that's doing them a favor.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Seems like you need to help them understand they no longer can flush those things down the toilet. Do they pay their own garbage or is that part of the rent? Maybe explain to them they need to toss those items in the garbage and work out a solution so they toss those items in there - provide them with a cute little garbage can for each bathroom & a huge box of garbage bags.

Even if they pay back the $130, you haven't "fixed" the problem until you provide them with another option to flushing down that stuff. Clearly they can't figure out how to buy a small garbage can on their own!

ETA - I wouldn't bring up the cost of your scuba gear.

 

[kenny]

You wrote, "we are really neurotic about not putting stuff down the sink and toilet".
I do not think it is reasonable to expect your tenants to be neurotic too.
One thing they should get for the rent they pay is plumbing that is not "1922, old and sensitive" as you described it.

Perhaps you should consider updating the drains, and just see it as a cost of doing business and nothing personal regarding these particular tenants.

That said, our house has 1920s drains too and I'm super neurotic about what I put down the drains, but I own the place.
Even though large stuff clearly makes clogs more likely, I think I'd resent a landlord telling me what I'm allowed to do in my own bathroom.

 

[justginger]

You wrote, "we are really neurotic about not putting stuff down the sink and toilet".
I do not think it is reasonable to expect your tenants to be neurotic too.
One thing they should get for the rent they pay is plumbing that is not "1922, old and sensitive" as you described it.

Perhaps you should consider updating the drains, and just see it as a cost of doing business and nothing personal regarding these particular tenants.

That said, our house has 1920s drains too and I'm super neurotic about what I put down the drains, but I own the place.
Even though large stuff clearly makes clogs more likely, I think I'd resent a landlord telling me what I'm allowed to do in my own bathroom.

Neurotic is chopping up your poos to make sure they flush. Neurotic is not putting paper towels, baby wipes, and tampons in the bin. EVERYONE knows those things are not flushable, especially in an older house.

 

[LaraOnline]

Neurotic is not putting paper towels, baby wipes, and tampons in the bin. EVERYONE knows those things are not flushable, especially in an older house.

In the seventies and eighties, it seemed normal to flush tampons down the toilet.
I would never, ever do that now!
The practice of flushing tampons down the toilet is hopelessly out dated.

Regarding baby wipes, is says ON THE PACKAGING not to flush down the loo.

And as for paper towel...well that's just common sense, is it not?

Toilet paper is designed to fall apart within the sewage system.
Condoms, tampons and all other 'bodily waste' type products are not.

Simple.

I probably WOULD be letting your tenants know the details of the adventure, including the soiled carpet and the raw sewage sprayed all over your home. What kind of a mess did they have at their end?

And...I would probably get the plumbing looked at completely too. Maybe it's time for a plumbing upgrade.

 

[iLander]

They did give you a security deposit, right?

Any other landlord would now consider every penny of that security deposit as forfeited. I once lost a $500 deposit because a plunger was left in the bathroom of a clean apartment (I learned to do walk-throughs after that).

I also think there's a lot more damage than the $130 (remarkably low!!). You could have future moisture issues between the floors, with wiring, mold, etc. If another tenant was living downstairs, you would surely have lost that tenant/income.

Because they keep ignoring you, they are taking advantage of you. This is why I never get to know my tenants, because then I will become a soft touch, which isn't fair to me. If you didn't know them, you would simply send a letter with damages detailed and a HUGE bill. Doesn't matter if they don't pay, you're keeping the deposit. You're hesitating because you know them, which is a problem.

 

[perry]

I am not sure you have any specific legal remedy for cost recovery, and it is unlikely that you could actually claim the security deposit in many states over an issue like this.

You need to check your local and state laws on the details of landlord/tenant rights and rules on security deposits. Also, what is the wording of the lease agreement if there is one?

However, it is not normally accepted practice to flush a variety of items down the toilet or the sinks. You can quite reasonably put the tenants on notice that those are not acceptable practices and if they continue you have the right to evict them.

While I understand that their are advantages to 1 and 2 year contract leases; but at the same time their are advantages to month to month.

In most places I rented the first year was a contract, and then we reverted to month to month after that. That gave the landlord time to figure out if they wished to renew you after a year (and some were told their lease was up and find another apartment); and then provides simplicity after that as most people only move for job or life change reasons (which a 1 year lease does not really prevent).

Hope the best with this situation,

Perry

 

[iLander]

I am not sure you have any specific legal remedy for cost recovery, and it is unlikely that you could actually claim the security deposit in many states over an issue like this.

You need to check your local and state laws on the details of landlord/tenant rights and rules on security deposits. Also, what is the wording of the lease agreement if there is one?

However, it is not normally accepted practice to flush a variety of items down the toilet or the sinks. You can quite reasonably put the tenants on notice that those are not acceptable practices and if they continue you have the right to evict them.

While I understand that their are advantages to 1 and 2 year contract leases; but at the same time their are advantages to month to month.

In most places I rented the first year was a contract, and then we reverted to month to month after that. That gave the landlord time to figure out if they wished to renew you after a year (and some were told their lease was up and find another apartment); and then provides simplicity after that as most people only move for job or life change reasons (which a 1 year lease does not really prevent).

Hope the best with this situation,

Perry

The legal remedy is the security deposit, which covers damage to the apartment, or surrounding apartments, caused by the tenant. The "security" deposit is not meant to cover missed rent, it's for damage. It's very simple and clear.

The landlord and tenant law specifically prohibits the landlord from telling the tenant how to act within the privacy of their own apartment. It does allow the landlord to prohibit illegal activities, running a business, damaging the building or disturbing other tenants. All of this should be spelled out clearly in the lease.

Tuffyluver; what does their lease say about damages?

 

[ame]

You absolutely must make this an issue for them and they do need to pay for it. ESP if you can prove its them bec they will probably turn it around on you somehow.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

Dirty contaminations yield different problems than do clean water--personally I would have a reclamation specialist look at the areas that were in contact with the sewage. You don't need additional future problems because of this.

cheers--Sharon

 

[Maria D]

In the seventies and eighties, it seemed normal to flush tampons down the toilet.
I would never, ever do that now!
The practice of flushing tampons down the toilet is hopelessly out dated.

Really? Oh my. I've never NOT flushed tampons down the toilet. The oldest house I've lived in was built in the '20s, newest in the '90s. Flushed tampons in all of them. Just the tampons, not plastic applicators, of course.

edited to add: I don't even use tampons with plastic applicators!

 

[JaneSmith]

We own a duplex--we live in the owners unit downstairs and we rent the upstairs unit to a family. They are very nice people, and for the most part, good tenants. However, we have had several issues with them clogging the plumbing this year. First they clogged the sink by dumping a bunch of old pasta, rice and potato peels. Then we had to have a plumber out right before Christmas because our drains were running really slow--we never found out what caused that, so we can't be certain it was them, but we suspect it was because we are really neurotic about not putting stuff down the sink and toilet.

Today I woke up to the worst yet: it was like a sh!t avalanche in our bathroom! The bathtub and sink were filled with sewage water, and the toilet overflowed poopy water all over the bathroom floor and leaked into our office too. Worst of all, we went diving yesterday and because it rained last night, after we rinsed our scuba gear we put in the bathtub to dry off. Literally thousands of dollars worth of gear marinated in raw sewage.

When the plumber rootered the main line he found it clogged all the way to the street with paper towels, baby wipes and tampons--we NEVER flush those things. It took me 4 hours to clean up and decontaminate the terrible mess, plus the plumber was $130.

We have paid for the plumber the last 2 times, but we are thinking about charging the tenants for this one. We have had several conversations with them about being very conservative about what they flush--our house was built in 1922 and the plumbing is old and sensitive. Our concern is that unless we charge them they will not take this seriously. However, we know money is tight for them and we like them and want to keep them as tenants. We were going to offer to let them pay it off next month of even in a couple installments.

What would you do? Do you think it's outrageous to ask them to pay the bill??

Ugh. I'd never be able to use that reg again.

I think you'll have to check the wording on your lease and check what caveats you can put on their personal use of the bathroom legally in your area. Then inform them in writing what can and cannot be flushed, plus consequences of breaking this rule.
If you can legally get them to pay for some of this current damage, I would.
I would also investigate a plumbing update. And make sure you have some kind of decontamination professional look at your house.

 

[perry]

I am not sure you have any specific legal remedy for cost recovery, and it is unlikely that you could actually claim the security deposit in many states over an issue like this.

You need to check your local and state laws on the details of landlord/tenant rights and rules on security deposits. Also, what is the wording of the lease agreement if there is one?

However, it is not normally accepted practice to flush a variety of items down the toilet or the sinks. You can quite reasonably put the tenants on notice that those are not acceptable practices and if they continue you have the right to evict them.

While I understand that their are advantages to 1 and 2 year contract leases; but at the same time their are advantages to month to month.

In most places I rented the first year was a contract, and then we reverted to month to month after that. That gave the landlord time to figure out if they wished to renew you after a year (and some were told their lease was up and find another apartment); and then provides simplicity after that as most people only move for job or life change reasons (which a 1 year lease does not really prevent).

Hope the best with this situation,

Perry

The legal remedy is the security deposit, which covers damage to the apartment, or surrounding apartments, caused by the tenant. The "security" deposit is not meant to cover missed rent, it's for damage. It's very simple and clear.

The landlord and tenant law specifically prohibits the landlord from telling the tenant how to act within the privacy of their own apartment. It does allow the landlord to prohibit illegal activities, running a business, damaging the building or disturbing other tenants. All of this should be spelled out clearly in the lease.

Tuffyluver; what does their lease say about damages?

Actually; no it is not so clear. It all depends on which state they live in and what the state laws are. Back in my college days I resident managered for 76 units in Madison WI, and the landlord had propeties in 3 states (Wisconsin, Illinois, Colorado). The central office was here in Wisconsin where he lived (and I was over to his mansion a few times). I was involved in reviewing and working to standardize leases for all 3 states. We could standardize most sections - but the sections dealing with Security Deposit, and what happened if the lease was not replaced by a signed lease was different for each state and could be specific to the City or County (Example: Madison Wisconsin required Security Deposits to be held in a separate bank account - which did not apply to other locations in Wisconsin). In some states security deposit can in fact be used as a rent security. Also, what counted as damage can be regulated by both state and local laws.

So, what is allowed will be determined by the state and local laws where Tuffyluver lives; and I will not make any guesses on what is and is not covered in a situation like this.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[Dancing Fire]

Because they keep ignoring you, they are taking advantage of you. This is why I never get to know my tenants, because then I will become a soft touch, which isn't fair to me. If you didn't know them, you would simply send a letter with damages detailed and a HUGE bill. Doesn't matter if they don't pay, you're keeping the deposit. You're hesitating because you know them, which is a problem.

what if the deposit is still not enough to cover all the damages?? ...that's the reason why i can't be a landlord. i would be jailed for murder...

 

[texaskj]

tuffy, I can't help you from a legal standpoint, but speaking as someone who got to fork over $5600 two weeks before Christmas for a new sewer line from the house to the street I can tell you this: (and your tenants need to know it also)
Nothing, and I mean nothing, should ever go down a toilet but human waste and toilet paper. It doesn't matter how new or old the house is or how fabulous the toilet is. Even Kleenex is a no-no.
This is probably worth spending some time and money with a lawyer, since things could really get ugly.

 

[Dancing Fire]

tuffy, I can't help you from a legal standpoint, but speaking as someone who got to fork over $5600 two weeks before Christmas for a new sewer line from the house to the street I can tell you this: (and your tenants need to know it also)
Nothing, and I mean nothing, should ever go down a toilet but human waste and toilet paper. It doesn't matter how new or old the house is or how fabulous the toilet is. Even Kleenex is a no-no.
This is probably worth spending some time and money with a lawyer, since things could really get ugly.

yeah,but you might end up spending more money for nothing...

 

[PintoBean]

I would recommend getting a quote for updating the plumbing system. Arrange a formal meeting with your tenant. Tell them that due to the repeated plumbing catastrophes, you have decided to upgrade the plumbing system. Since this is a benefit for the tenants as well, you will be raising their rent.

 

[tuffyluvr]

Thank you so much for your replies, everyone! We actually had to get up for a boat dive early this morning and I just got back... Yes, we had to take our sh!tty gear diving... The dive was paid for and non-refundable. We soaked all the gear in 10% bleach solution and fingers crossed that we don't end up infected with giardia or Hep A or another poo-borne nasty. Ugh

 

[tuffyluvr]

Personally, I think that's very reasonable. Legally (and I am no lawyer), I think you have to go back to your renter contract and see if there is anything specific that covers willfully not following routine maintenance of the unit. Sounds like if you could prove that you had been very specific about drain usage you could hold this out of their security deposit, at the very least, if not have them pay for it outright.

If you don't have a contract or a clause that covers you, I think you can ask them to pay but they could say no and you wouldn't have much legal backing to collect it. I don't know where you live, but most places have very strict and specific tenant laws, so that might be worth looking into as well. Hopefully you ask, and they say yes, both in the interest of maintaining a friendly working relationship.

It's a really tough spot, cause you don't want to lose a good tenant who just has this one little issue...but the one little issue isn't exactly little at this point. Best of luck!

Unfortunately we live in Los Angeles County and the laws are very strong... And geared towards tenants. Also, we are in the city of Los Angeles and the unit is rent controlled, so things are even more strongly in favor of the tenants. ANDDD, when we bought the place it had been foreclosed on and the previous owners took their security deposit and because of rent control, we can't ask for another. Rent control sucks for landlords--to get them to move out would cost us over $20k.

However, there is a stipulation in their rental agreement that they can be held responsible for anything beyond the scope of normal wear and tear...

 

[Maria D]

Don't know how I forgot about this, but is it possible that you have clay pipes going to the city sewerage system and old large trees? We had plumbing problems with a house on a street that was developed in the 1950s. It turned out that tree roots were getting into cracks in the clay drain pipes and clogging them. One by one, every house on that street had to have their clay lines replaced! Fortunately for us, our drain went through the side yard and we didn't have to dig up a whole driveway; others were not so lucky!

edited to add: The plumber had to send a scope down to see the tree roots. It wasn't obvious just from rooting/clearing out the drain.

 

[tuffyluvr]

Gah! How frustrating for you! I hope your diving equipment wasn't ruined. I would definitely let them know that they either caused, or could have caused, you to lose thousands of dollars of equipment, had your office carpet replaced, had the room professionally decontaminated, etc. Working in microbiology, with a husband in enteric, I know what sort of stuff is in that water. It's not to be taken lightly - it is a health risk. I would have a very strongly worded conversation (or letter) with them, let them know that if it happens again in the future, you intend to bill them for the entirety of the damages. But for this time, you'll let them off with a warning and the plumber's bill. Since this has happened in the past, I honestly feel like that's doing them a favor.

I am no expert, but I know how nasty that stuff is--even just from one college microbiology course. Yuck!!! Thank god all our floors are hard--tile and wood. And the sewage did not get on any furniture. I am super crazy and paranoid about cross-contamination, though. Just cooking chicken in my kitchen is an ordeal for me, so you can imagine my horror at dealing with raw sewage... I mopped the wood floors twice with antibacterial cleaner. and everything in the bathroom was cleaned several times over with a 30% bleach and scalding hot water solution. Then I mopped twice with our Bissell envirosteamer steam mop which heats water to boiling, and and is supposed to use that hot steam to sanitize. I used a clean mop head each time. I really hope that is enough to keep us from getting ecoli, giardia or Hepatitis!!!

 

[tuffyluvr]

Seems like you need to help them understand they no longer can flush those things down the toilet. Do they pay their own garbage or is that part of the rent? Maybe explain to them they need to toss those items in the garbage and work out a solution so they toss those items in there - provide them with a cute little garbage can for each bathroom & a huge box of garbage bags.

Even if they pay back the $130, you haven't "fixed" the problem until you provide them with another option to flushing down that stuff. Clearly they can't figure out how to buy a small garbage can on their own!

ETA - I wouldn't bring up the cost of your scuba gear.

Yes--completely agreed. They just don't seem to "get" it. We pay the trash fee--and they have their own trash can, recycle can and green waste.

 

[tuffyluvr]

You wrote, "we are really neurotic about not putting stuff down the sink and toilet".
I do not think it is reasonable to expect your tenants to be neurotic too.
One thing they should get for the rent they pay is plumbing that is not "1922, old and sensitive" as you described it.

Perhaps you should consider updating the drains, and just see it as a cost of doing business and nothing personal regarding these particular tenants.

That said, our house has 1920s drains too and I'm super neurotic about what I put down the drains, but I own the place.
Even though large stuff clearly makes clogs more likely, I think I'd resent a landlord telling me what I'm allowed to do in my own bathroom.

Yeah--I get that people don't want to be told what to do... But if they are going to cause major damages, I would *hope* that they would want to do the right thing... But like you say, "people vary"...

 

[tuffyluvr]

Neurotic is not putting paper towels, baby wipes, and tampons in the bin. EVERYONE knows those things are not flushable, especially in an older house.

In the seventies and eighties, it seemed normal to flush tampons down the toilet.
I would never, ever do that now!
The practice of flushing tampons down the toilet is hopelessly out dated.

Regarding baby wipes, is says ON THE PACKAGING not to flush down the loo.

And as for paper towel...well that's just common sense, is it not?

Toilet paper is designed to fall apart within the sewage system.
Condoms, tampons and all other 'bodily waste' type products are not.

Simple.

I probably WOULD be letting your tenants know the details of the adventure, including the soiled carpet and the raw sewage sprayed all over your home. What kind of a mess did they have at their end?

And...I would probably get the plumbing looked at completely too. Maybe it's time for a plumbing upgrade.

They had no mess on their end... I spent 3--almost 4 hours cleaning up. My wages are about $40-45/hr, and that is NOT something I normally do. We had the plumber look into what we need to upgrade. It's about $3k, and we will. Be doing it, but not for a few months...

 

[tuffyluvr]

They did give you a security deposit, right?

Any other landlord would now consider every penny of that security deposit as forfeited. I once lost a $500 deposit because a plunger was left in the bathroom of a clean apartment (I learned to do walk-throughs after that).

I also think there's a lot more damage than the $130 (remarkably low!!). You could have future moisture issues between the floors, with wiring, mold, etc. If another tenant was living downstairs, you would surely have lost that tenant/income.

Because they keep ignoring you, they are taking advantage of you. This is why I never get to know my tenants, because then I will become a soft touch, which isn't fair to me. If you didn't know them, you would simply send a letter with damages detailed and a HUGE bill. Doesn't matter if they don't pay, you're keeping the deposit. You're hesitating because you know them, which is a problem.

We have no security deposit, unfortunately--I explained a bit above. We live in Los Angeles and tenants rights trump landlord's. We decided to bill them for the plumber's charges. Only that. It is beyond the scope of normal wear and tear.

 

[tuffyluvr]

You absolutely must make this an issue for them and they do need to pay for it. ESP if you can prove its them bec they will probably turn it around on you somehow.

We decided to charge them the plumber's fee of $130. We won't charge them for the things that we had to throw away because they were ruined. We're hoping that this and the promise of more plumbers charges if they disregard normal wear and tear will deter them from further abuse of the plumbing...

 

[tuffyluvr]

HI:

Dirty contaminations yield different problems than do clean water--personally I would have a reclamation specialist look at the areas that were in contact with the sewage. You don't need additional future problems because of this.

cheers--Sharon

The plumber went under the house and LUCKILY nothing soaked through. Most of the mess was on tile and only a bit on hardwood floor. The water wasn't high enough to soak into the baseboards or drywall!!!

 

[tuffyluvr]

I am not sure you have any specific legal remedy for cost recovery, and it is unlikely that you could actually claim the security deposit in many states over an issue like this.

You need to check your local and state laws on the details of landlord/tenant rights and rules on security deposits. Also, what is the wording of the lease agreement if there is one?

However, it is not normally accepted practice to flush a variety of items down the toilet or the sinks. You can quite reasonably put the tenants on notice that those are not acceptable practices and if they continue you have the right to evict them.

While I understand that their are advantages to 1 and 2 year contract leases; but at the same time their are advantages to month to month.

In most places I rented the first year was a contract, and then we reverted to month to month after that. That gave the landlord time to figure out if they wished to renew you after a year (and some were told their lease was up and find another apartment); and then provides simplicity after that as most people only move for job or life change reasons (which a 1 year lease does not really prevent).

Hope the best with this situation,

Perry

The legal remedy is the security deposit, which covers damage to the apartment, or surrounding apartments, caused by the tenant. The "security" deposit is not meant to cover missed rent, it's for damage. It's very simple and clear.

The landlord and tenant law specifically prohibits the landlord from telling the tenant how to act within the privacy of their own apartment. It does allow the landlord to prohibit illegal activities, running a business, damaging the building or disturbing other tenants. All of this should be spelled out clearly in the lease.

Tuffyluver; what does their lease say about damages?

Actually; no it is not so clear. It all depends on which state they live in and what the state laws are. Back in my college days I resident managered for 76 units in Madison WI, and the landlord had propeties in 3 states (Wisconsin, Illinois, Colorado). The central office was here in Wisconsin where he lived (and I was over to his mansion a few times). I was involved in reviewing and working to standardize leases for all 3 states. We could standardize most sections - but the sections dealing with Security Deposit, and what happened if the lease was not replaced by a signed lease was different for each state and could be specific to the City or County (Example: Madison Wisconsin required Security Deposits to be held in a separate bank account - which did not apply to other locations in Wisconsin). In some states security deposit can in fact be used as a rent security. Also, what counted as damage can be regulated by both state and local laws.

So, what is allowed will be determined by the state and local laws where Tuffyluver lives; and I will not make any guesses on what is and is not covered in a situation like this.

Have a great day,

Perry

yep--and we're in California, which has laws that are strongly in favor of tenants...