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Is this Diamond worth the price?

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makisupa

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
13
Hello all,

I'm finally to a point where I'm ready to buy a ring and have looked at several in the last week. The trouble I'm running into is that prices range too greatly at the brick and mortar shops I've been visiting. I walk in with a print out of my rapaport and the ones the stores have is different (they even differ amongst the individual stores). In order to get somewhat of a standard I'm asking to see if the following gem would be considered a good deal or not. Please let me know. Many thanks in advance!

Round Brilliant 1.06 C
AGS Certified AGS000 (I saw perfect hearts and arrows under an H/A scope)
Color=H
Clarity= SI 1
HCA score= 1.1

Their initial offer was $6200 (can't blaim them from trying) but the last offer they gave me was $5700. This seems a bit high per my rap report but the one they produced had the avg./caret under the above at $5400 (not including the additional price for the quality cut)

Why are there so many different rap sheets and who is correct? Is the pricescope rapaport the updated one that dealers should be showing me?

One more question, how hard is it to find .95-.99 caret diamonds? I went to four stores today (chicago), one claiming to have the largest selection of loose diamonds in the entire city and nobody has been able to produce such a size. They all claim it to be rare (I'm obviously trying for the cheaper price with going for under a caret).

Thanks again to those who have read this and may be able to help!

Rob
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I ran a quick search on Pricescope for diamonds similar to your specs and came up with the following. However there were MANY more than these..these were just a few I chose.

These are all AGS Triple Ideal 000 H&A's:

1.03 G VS2 .9HCA $4900
1.06 G SI1 1.3HCA $5580
1.05 H VS2 1.1HCA $5600
1.03 H SI1 $4650 (no HCA score..no angles listed)

So you can definitely stay within your range of under $5600 with those 4 AGS 000 H&A diamonds, and you know that 3 of them rate excellent with HCA. They are all similar to your original diamond carat weight, and might be one or two steps better in color and/or clarity.

So my two cents would be to keep your $5600 and buy a better diamond online for the same or less money. OR use this new knowledge to talk down the B&M vendor you are dealing with to under $5k. I personally like the G, VS2 1.03 for $4900, and it scores under 1 on the HCA.

Run your own search on Pricescope (use the 'search by cut quality' to look for only 'excellent' HCA scorers if that is what you are interested in), and you will note many diamonds under 1ctw (e.g. 92, .95), as well as the ones I listed above and many more.

Good luck!
 

Googleman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
53
Mara:
You are certainly a pro at finding those stones! It is so helpful.

I agree with Mara. I like the first one she posted. You could save a little more money and put it into a fancier setting or just save it for a rainy day. If you are in love with your own find and want to buy that, use this information as leverage. Take the stats and price on the G VS2 to the jeweler and tell him that you can get pretty much the same size diamond in a better clarity and color for x dollars cheaper. See if he will at least match that price. Any of the stones would be beautiful and you probably can't go wrong here. Good luck! :))
 

makisupa

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
13
Thanks, both of you.

The seller and I have not begun negotiations yet. The 5700 he quoted me (after explaining that it lists at 6200) is where we left off. I told him that I'm interested in it that I would give him a call and we could talk. I'm certain with the knowledge that I have received from this website, I can get the stone for around 5200 which to me would be an acceptable price given the quality of the stone. As an SI1 a majority of the inclusions I only saw from the bottom which I can care less about. There is a small feather in the table but with the sparkle that it produces it is hidden very well. After staring at it open eye, I finally saw the feather (a really small dot that unless you know its there you'll never see it).

Another plus, there prices on Plat. settings is great. A simple 4 prong cathedral plat. setting he is willing to add for 250 (too good?). Plus no sales tax. There were beutiful hearts and arrows under the HA Scope although I keep reading that you should see darker reds when I saw more pink than dark red.

The big hesitation for me is the jeweler though. I can't blaim him for trying but he is almost too much sales crazy. I left at the point that he told me that I'm making this harder than it really is not to mention his awful analogies he kept throwing in. He kept telling me stories of the diamonds he bought his wife (mind you he was not wearing a wedding ring).

Thanks Again !!!!!

Rob
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I have seen solitaire basic cathedral and tiffany settings for around $300 online, so that price he quoted you is pretty inline from my point of view.

If you decide on the stone in the B&M store, then definitely try to leverage the information you have learned on this site and on the net to try to drive the price down to something you feel comfortable with.

Also my two cents on an SI1 (though I know others may disagree) is..why spent a few hundred more for an SI1 when you can get a VS2 with slightly better color for less? We were thinking of doing SI1 until I saw a VERY CLEAN SI1 with one small carbon inclusion that was visible to my naked eye (and no one elses) when I tilted the diamond at some odd angle. The jeweler told us we could set it under a prong, and we could have..but for some reason it bothered me. We ended up with a VS1 that is beautiful and clean which you can't see anything under a 10x mag. Have you seen a VS2 under a 10x magnification or a VS1? Not that I am trying to change your mind (hee hee), but check them out under 10x mag and then see how you feel about the SI1 you are considering. If you still feel great, and you very well could...then go for it! However, I know the one inclusion bothered me, and it sounds like in this diamond you are considering, more are visible than just one, which would make me possible consider a VS2. Anyway--just thought I'd mention this.

Best of luck! Be confident in the store and don't let him bully you or say you are making this more difficult than it is. That sounds to me like he is insecure about the sale because he knows you have taken the liberty of educating yourself.
 

jetcaptain

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 3, 2002
Messages
72
----------------
On 12/5/2002 2:03:55 PM

I have seen solitaire basic cathedral and tiffany settings for around $300 online, so that price he quoted you is pretty inline from my point of view.

If you decide on the stone in the B&M store, then definitely try to leverage the information you have learned on this site and on the net to try to drive the price down to something you feel comfortable with.

Also my two cents on an SI1 (though I know others may disagree) is..why spent a few hundred more for an SI1 when you can get a VS2 with slightly better color for less? We were thinking of doing SI1 until I saw a VERY CLEAN SI1 with one small carbon inclusion that was visible to my naked eye (and no one elses) when I tilted the diamond at some odd angle. The jeweler told us we could set it under a prong, and we could have..but for some reason it bothered me. We ended up with a VS1 that is beautiful and clean which you can't see anything under a 10x mag. Have you seen a VS2 under a 10x magnification or a VS1? Not that I am trying to change your mind (hee hee), but check them out under 10x mag and then see how you feel about the SI1 you are considering. If you still feel great, and you very well could...then go for it! However, I know the one inclusion bothered me, and it sounds like in this diamond you are considering, more are visible than just one, which would make me possible consider a VS2. Anyway--just thought I'd mention this.

Best of luck! Be confident in the store and don't let him bully you or say you are making this more difficult than it is. That sounds to me like he is insecure about the sale because he knows you have taken the liberty of educating yourself.
----------------

I think Mara has gotten her clarities confused, although I understand the point she is trying to make. Not to embarrass her, but to add "clarity" to her post, VS1 is cleaner than VS2, VS2 is cleaner than SI1, and SI1 is cleaner than SI2.
 

makisupa

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
13
I understood what Mara meant. With the SI1 I'm actually saving money. If a VS2 G was cheaper than an SI1 H than I'd take it. Having to factor a stone in my budget going from a G to and H and a VS2 to a SI1 was not much of a factor given the beutiful cut and hence its great brilliance. I'm going to take a look at it one more time omorrow and compare it against two similar stones (one of better color, and one of worse cut).

Although an SI1, I only see one little inclusion in the table. The report shows several "dots" around the speck that I see, but even under a loup I have a hard time seeing all those little dots (pardon my ignorence on the proper terminology, ie. feather, cloud, etc...). I can however see the one speck without the loup if I look at the stone from an angle but only because I'm looking for it. It's brilliance masks it well.

W/o rambling too much, I'm going to make the dealer an offer tomorrow if I like it. He said the price was 6200 but then immediately offured me 5700. Given my research that is high but from a b&m, I'll be happy if I walk out of there with it for 5300 (online prices range from 5000-5700 for the same grade of ring). Do you think that counter-offering for the stone over 700 less than he told me he could get it for me would be too much? For a dealer that claims to have the largest owned selection of loose diamonds in Chicago, I would assume that he is buying his stones (ideal cuts as well) for great prices and for this particular stone, he probably paid near 4500 for it?

Thanks
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Sorry if my post was confusing, I meant 'instead of SI1, check out VS1 or VS2', knowing that VS1 is better than VS2, and VS2 better than SI1 etc.

If you love the stone, offer him what you'd like to pay. You might even offer him a little less, so that if he negotiates upwards, you still leave with the stone for $5300. If he wants the deal, he'll take the $$ and you'll get the stone you love! Sounds like it's gorgeous!! Post a picture if you purchase! :)

Good luck.
M
 

makisupa

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
13
I'll try to post a picture if I do get it. I'm hoping this is the one. 2 months and over 12 jewelers. Let's hope negotiations work out well. I'm so tired of looking right now that I feel that I'm going to buy this stone no matter what (I'm still going to put up a fight on the price though) withough letting the jeweler know.
 

jetcaptain

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 3, 2002
Messages
72
----------------
On 12/5/2002 5:34:52 PM

Sorry if my post was confusing, I meant 'instead of SI1, check out VS1 or VS2', knowing that VS1 is better than VS2, and VS2 better than SI1 etc.

If you love the stone, offer him what you'd like to pay. You might even offer him a little less, so that if he negotiates upwards, you still leave with the stone for $5300. If he wants the deal, he'll take the $$ and you'll get the stone you love! Sounds like it's gorgeous!! Post a picture if you purchase! :)

Good luck.
M
----------------

Mara,

The apology should be mine, because now I realize that you were referring specifically to the better-clarity stones you had found on the pricescope search you mentioned earlier in this thread, NOT to VS1 and VS2 stones in general (which would be expected to be more expensive than SI1). I'm sorry that I missed the connection the first time (and the second, third and fourth time)I read your post. Sometimes I'm slow. But without that connection I just couldn't make sense of what you were trying to say, and everything else you've posted seems so, well, sensible. ;>) FWIW, I agree with your negotiating philosophy. There is a range of reasonable prices for this diamond. Why not begin at the lower end of this range, and if necessary, negotiate upwards until you arrive at a price that both buyer and seller can be satisfied with? If you can't find common ground on pricing, look elsewhere. DeBeers may control the diamond market to a large extent, but let's face it, diamonds aren't exactly scarce.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Jet...no worries! Sometimes I confuse myself, so its no surprise I confuse others too :)

Google & Rob..I love playing around with Pricescope, so taking 5 minutes out of my hum-drum workday and looking up a few diamonds is a treat! :) I do have to say that while we were searching for our diamond, I didn't really realize what the 'search by cut quality' tool meant (I thought it meant you had to know the actual crown and pav angles you were looking for and type them in and of course I thought--how could I know that??), so now that I have found it, I love using it to look up great HCA scorers for others to use in their comparisons.:read:
 

Googleman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
53
I, too, live in Chicago and have visited many of the jewelers at jewelers row. It is a terrible thing when a salesperson gets too pushy, so I understand your frustration. I am curious as to what jeweler you are considering buying from? I know you stated that they have the largest selection of loose stones. Do they perchance advertise this on their sign? I don't want to use any names and get myself in trouble here.

Anyway, if we are thinking of the same place, I had an experience with a really pushy salesman there. He locked us in a room for 2 hours and didn't want us to leave until we purchased his stone! We didn't purchase the stone, though and some how managed to still leave unscathed.

I have seen some really nice SI1's in larger sizes (and seen some duds, too). I think you will do well with if you find a really clean SI1, they are out there! Good luck!
 

makisupa

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
13
w/o giving names as well, it was a street level dealer on Wabash (that limits it down to about eight). Yes, they do have a big banner hanging from their sign about having the largest selection. Although he was pushy, I've seen that to be more the norm than the exeption. I'm not upset over it b/c these people are trying to make a living too and a sale is the way they do it. I'm more focused on the stone than the dealer. At the end of the day the dealer (or salesperson) is not going to have much to say and I feel that it will be a back and forth thing between me and the owner in order to get a fair price on the stone.

For the most part it is what I would consider a pretty clean SI1. Most of the inclusions are on the bottom and the only one visible on top under the loup is the small "speck" in the table. Granted, I'd prefer it along the side as many others would but to fit in my budget I'll give up the clarity in order to gain the cut.

Thanks

m
 

makisupa

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
13
I bought it!

After two months of education and looking I finally bought the diamond I was looking for. A 1.06 H SI1(eye clean, no inclusions on the table just a black speck and some feathers on the side) AGS 000 with great looking hearts and arrows, wonderful brilliance. After going back and forth on price I walked out paying $5300. That was the final price including the stone, a platinum 4 prong tiffany setting, shipping, and insurance. The asking price was $6700 for everything. It took my seller 4 times going back and forth to talk to the manager, at which point I made him get the manager and we went at it head to head. Comparing prices to other online dealers and brokers I think I came out with a great deal from a B & A store.

I have to thank everyone who helped me with my research the last couple of months. W/o it I would have definitely bought a worse looking diamond for more. The dealer told me he was glad that he didn't deal with more people like myself which I took as a compliment.

I'm going on a cruise with my girlfriend next week so that will be the time and place. I'm getting pretty excited!!!

Thanks again everyone!

makisupa!!!!!!!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Congratulations! Sounds like you worked him down to the price you wanted to after all! Best of luck next week :) Let us know how it turns out.
 

Googleman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
53
Congratulations! I am glad everything worked out and you are satisfied with the price.

Yes, we were talking about the same vendor in Chicago! :)) I am glad you stuck to your guns and didn't get bamboozled.

Good luck on the cruise! I am sure it will be a blast and everything will work out better than you had planned! We want pictures!
 
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