Is this anti-Semitic?

[ruby59]

I rather prefer this bold new world.
I don't have to bother with people who suck.
If they feel I suck, they don't have to bother with me.
____________________________________

100% agree with Kenny. I would rather find out who you are in front of my face then behind my back.

 

[missy]

Deb and Matata, thank you for sharing those articles.
Time and time again it comes down to not hiding one's head in the sand and standing up for what you believe. Not keeping quiet and not ignoring what is right in front of you.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

[missy]

I rather prefer this bold new world.
I don't have to bother with people who suck.
If they feel I suck, they don't have to bother with me.
____________________________________

100% agree with Kenny. I would rather find out who you are in front of my face then behind my back.

Completely agree.

 

[AGBF]

Trump didn't create the graphic. AFAIK someone else did and they just 'borrowed' it. I have no doubt it was intentionally anti-semetic, however I don't want to lump Trump into that category. I would give his people the small shred of benefit that they were just dumb, saw something insulting about Hilary and posted it. Doesn't make the original graphic any less terrible but I do think intentions are important.

telephone, you are totally off on this one. You absolutely should not be giving Trump the benefit of the doubt. You are being incredibly naive. This graphic came from a white supremacist website; apparently people have recognized where it originated. Trump's staff had to have known where it came from. Also: his staff is very savvy. They know a Star of David when they see one.

As another poster pointed out, it is on the Israeli flag. It is the symbol Jews were made to wear in every Nazi occupied country during World War II and, has, therefore, been in every movie about the Holocaust and World War II that shows Jews. It is recognizable to almost every person in The First World. Just like the swastika.

Here is a photo of Jews forced to wear the star during World War II.*

This is the information that was posted with the picture:

"Jews throughout Nazi-occupied Europe were forced to wear a badge in the form of a Yellow Star as a means of identification. This was not a new idea; since medieval times many other societies had forced their Jewish citizens to wear badges to identify themselves.

The badges were often printed on coarse yellow cloth and were a garish yellow colour. The star, which represented the star of David, was outlined in thick, black lines and the word 'Jew' was printed in mock-Hebraic type. In the Warsaw ghetto, Jews wore a white armband with a blue Star of David on their left arm. In some ghettos, even babies in prams had to wear the armbands or stars. Jewish shops were also marked with a Yellow Star.

The star was intended to humiliate Jews and to mark them out for segregation and discrimination. The policy also made it easier to identify Jews for deportation to camps."

AGBF


*Five year old Avram Rosenthal and two year old brother Emanuel of the Kovno ghetto in Lithuania are shown. Both boys were later deported to the death camp at Majdanek, where they were murdered. (United States Holocaust Memorial Museum)

 

[telephone89]

I'm no fan of Trump, but I'm not going to lump his entire staff in with him. Maybe that's naïve, but that isn't who I am and not the person I want to be.

Also, to say that it is recognizable to 'almost every' person is far overblown. My own ILs didn't, and even a few people on here didn't either - until it was pointed out. Once pointed out it becomes much more obvious.

eta - I just did a bit more research. Consider trumps past comments about Muslims/Islam, I'd find it unlikely that he is anti-semetic (eta - at least ONLY. He has a general kind of hatred going on).
I found some interesting articles - apparently Israeli jews liked Trump the best of the GOP noms (Clinton still beat them all), one of Netanyahu $$ backers gave him $100M, etc.
Was the graphic anti-semetic? Yes. Was this person? I'm not so quick to say so.

 

[AGBF]

I'm no fan of Trump, but I'm not going to lump his entire staff in with him. Maybe that's naïve, but that isn't who I am and not the person I want to be.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, telephone, although I am more than 100% sure that Trump's staff did what they did deliberately. Did you read Matata's article? Did you read the congratulations Trump got from all the people who hate Jews? All of them instantly saw the Star of David, just as they were supposed to. I remember you once posting that you had never met a Jew. When you posted that, I posted-in sympathy-that I had never met anyone from Belize. After I wrote that I started to wonder if it were true. Because I probably wouldn't know if a person I met was from Belize or not. And it made me wonder how you knew that you had never met a Jew. I can only say that when you posted what you did, you probably meant that you never met anyone who declared he was a Jew. Obviously you do not live in an area that is highly Jewish and you and your family may not know as much about the religion as some others. But people who hate Jews have secret handshakes.

AGBF

 

[House Cat]

Wait...

Someone thinks the democrats have been reduced to nitpicking in order to find offensive material when it comes to Donald Trump??

 

[telephone89]

I'm no fan of Trump, but I'm not going to lump his entire staff in with him. Maybe that's naïve, but that isn't who I am and not the person I want to be.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, telephone, although I am more than 100% sure that Trump's staff did what they did deliberately. Did you read Matata's article? Did you read the congratulations Trump got from all the people who hate Jews? All of them instantly saw the Star of David, just as they were supposed to. I remember you once posting that you had never met a Jew. When you posted that, I posted-in sympathy-that I had never met anyone from Belize. After I wrote that I started to wonder if it were true. Because I probably wouldn't know if a person I met was from Belize or not. And it made me wonder how you knew that you had never met a Jew. I can only say that when you posted what you did, you probably meant that you never met anyone who declared he was a Jew. Obviously you do not live in an area that is highly Jewish and you and your family may not know as much about the religion as some others. But people who hate Jews have secret handshakes.

AGBF

I added a bit more above if you want to reply to that as well.

I've never met a jew in real life, no. I do participate in online forums and meet people of all creeds, and one of my friends has married a jew, though I've not yet met him.

My city has a very low jewish population, I remember looking it up and posting it. Something like less than half a percent. Perhaps my family doesn't know as much about the religion as some other, but they are still 'first world' citizens, and I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who didn't immediately recognize it is at fault.

Re: your bolded, You called me naïve. I said maybe that's true. But I'd rather be naïve than jump to conclusions and lump people into categories based on a twitter post. Apologies if that was unclear, I see now it was a bit confusing.

ETA- I should add, that I've met people who say they 'used to be' jewish. If they don't consider themselves jewish, then I am not going to.

 

[AGBF]

I added a bit more above if you want to reply to that as well.

What you added to a posting was this:

eta - I just did a bit more research. Consider trumps past comments about Muslims/Islam, I'd find it unlikely that he is anti-semetic (eta - at least ONLY. He has a general kind of hatred going on).
I found some interesting articles - apparently Israeli jews liked Trump the best of the GOP noms (Clinton still beat them all), one of Netanyahu $$ backers gave him $100M, etc.

In actuality, both Arabs, who are among some of the most maligned and hated of the Muslims here in the United States, and Jews are Semites, a fact which everyone who accuses Arabs in the Middle East of anti-semitism forgets. Of course, in reality, Judaism and Islam have both spread around the world and people of many ethnic backgrounds have embraced both religions, as they have Christianity. It is ludicrous to try to tie one race or ethnic group to a religion in today's world, although people still attempt to do so.

Donald Trump is, above all, an opportunist. He exploits anyone he can for his own interests. But I do think that unless a man is extremely wealthy and powerful (like a Saudi prince or the Sultan of Brunei) and is joining him to watch a polo match and that being seen with him will enhance his image or a woman is very beautiful and grateful, that someone with darker skin or a non-Christian religion is going to be viewed with contempt after all. He has enough of it for the whole human race. I can see him being equally contemptuous of Jews and Muslims with his pal, David Duke.

 

[telephone89]

In actuality, both Arabs, who are among some of the most maligned and hated of the Muslims here in the United States, and Jews are Semites, a fact which everyone who accuses Arabs in the Middle East of anti-semitism forgets. Of course, in reality, Judaism and Islam have both spread around the world and people of many ethnic backgrounds have embraced both religions, as they have Christianity. It is ludicrous to try to tie one race or ethnic group to a religion in today's world, although people still attempt to do so.

Donald Trump is, above all, an opportunist. He exploits anyone he can for his own interests. But I do think that unless a man is extremely wealthy and powerful (like a Saudi prince or the Sultan of Brunei) and is joining him to watch a polo match and that being seen with him will enhance his image or a woman is very beautiful and grateful, that someone with darker skin or a non-Christian religion is going to be viewed with contempt after all. he has enough of it for the whole human race. I can see him being equally contemptuous of Jews and Muslims with his pal, David Duke.

I 100% agree with the bolded. That is a really perfect description. Whatever or whomever he needs to run over at the time, he will.

 

[azstonie]

I did 'see' a Star of David in that pic.

Regarding anti-semitism, its not complicated at all, its easy to identify. Antisemitism is like pornography/obscenity that way, YOU KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE IT.

 

[Jambalaya]

Oh my God, that rolling video of terrible things that people have recently said about Jewish people...I felt completely sick. How is it possible to have so much deep hatred and prejudice in your heart for an entire group of people, who are doing nothing wrong but simply living their lives, hurting nobody? I will never understand it as long as I live. I was truly shocked, and humbled to see what Jewish people still have to deal with...and that there's more hate around than you might think.

My last name sounds Jewish, but it isn't. Some new people moved into my neighborhood - they were Hasidic Jewish - and were very interested when they heard my name, but didn't really want to be friends when they found out I wasn't Jewish after all. I didn't really understand, although I never judged them for it, but given how much hate and prejudice some Jewish people experience, I don't blame people at all if they choose to socialize mainly within their own communities. It's sad, and it shouldn't be that way, but the amount of hate in those responses throws some light onto why some might choose to stay where they know they're accepted. It's a pity though, because sometimes previous hurts done to people mean that you don't get a chance to be friends with them, at least not in a really meaningful way.

I met an Indian woman who I liked - we got on - and she said that she cooks a lot of Indian food at home. I said that I really liked Indian food (there is one restaurant in our town, and I love it) but she said that I wouldn't like her food because it's authentic and not what's served in restaurants. She said it so matter-of-factly and was so sure that it seemed like a fact, so I didn't challenge her. We never did eat Indian food together. But who knows - maybe she once went to a great deal of trouble to cook a beautiful Indian banquet for some American friends and they didn't like it, or maybe she had experienced too much other prejudice to open up to someone by inviting them into her home and cooking them her real Indian food. This is another way that the hate of some affects the whole - it hurts people so much that sometimes they're understandably afraid to be friends with someone of a different religion or race. Prejudice really is the "gift" that keeps on giving.

I wonder, if we could see the world in 300 years time, if things will be any better. The fact that they are so, so much better now than 300 years ago does give me a bit of hope.

 

[AGBF]

Hey, telephone! Trump 's ears must have been burning because we were discussing him. Look what he went and did! The man is a certifiable lunatic. He is defending using the six pointed star and defending his praise of Saddam Hussein! You can't make these things up.

Deb

Link...http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/07/us/politics/donald-trump-campaign.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[AGBF]

I wrote earlier in this thread:

But people who hate Jews have secret handshakes.

Just now I found a description of what I was trying to convey above (clumsily). The excerpt from an article in"The New York Times" elegantly explains what I wanted to say. People who hate Jews use coded messages. It appears that there is even a term for this: dog whistles. The article also confirms that the material used by Trump originated in a white supremacist site.

"...a report on Sunday by the news website Mic traced the image to a website for the 'alt right,' an internet-based movement associated with white nationalism, where it appeared as early as June 22. The origin of the image appeared to be a Twitter account that has frequently criticized Mrs. Clinton, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, and has posted caustic and violent messages about Muslims, refugees and race.

For much of his campaign, Mr. Trump has been criticized for appearing to accommodate fringe groups and making comments that heartened them. He has also reposted encouraging messages from white supremacists.

Mr. Trump received criticism this year after he initially declined to disavow the support of David Duke, the white nationalist and former member of the Ku Klux Klan, before eventually distancing himself.

'I do not know that there’s a precedent for this,' Jonathan Greenblatt, the chief executive of the Anti-Defamation League, said in an interview.

'I think it’s certainly long overdue for Donald Trump as the presumptive G.O.P. nominee and as a person in the public square to reject — to flat-out, to firmly, to forcefully reject — the anti-Semites and the racists with a clarity and energy he’s brought to the campaign trail when going after other candidates,' Mr. Greenblatt said.

Mr. Greenblatt added that research had shown that white supremacists interpret Mr. Trump’s 'hesitant disavowals' as a 'green light' for their views.

Conservatives opposed to Mr. Trump have shuddered at what they consider to be unsubtle dog whistles, a term for coded messages to a political subgroup, from the candidate."

 

[Matata]

Here's Jared Kushner's response to Dana Schwartz's letter. It seems as though Mr. Kushner has mastered the art of prevarication.

http://observer.com/2016/07/jared-kushner-the-donald-trump-i-know/

 

[missy]

It seems as if either Kushner is just as delusional as his father in law or just as big a liar. Or both- which is the more likely scenario. Part of it is probably self preservation. I mean the man is his father in law and grandfather of his children. What could he do but defend him? Yes Matata I agree. Both he and Trump are masters in the art of prevarication. They both seem well versed in the art of politics which is synonymous with lying. Or to be more politically correct they just manipulate the "truth". A lot.

 

[House Cat]

Hey, telephone! Trump 's ears must have been burning because we were discussing him. Look what he went and did! The man is a certifiable lunatic. He is defending using the six pointed star and defending his praise of Saddam Hussein! You can't make these things up.

Deb

Link...http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/07/us/politics/donald-trump-campaign.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

He said, "They took the star down, but I told them to leave it up. I would have rather defended it. Leave it up."

As if he is powerless in his own campaign? He's such a liar. Why didn't they put the star back up again for him to defend? He is saying his Jewish friend actually designed the ad?? Lying again.

He is such a pile of lies. But Hills is the liar. She is such a liar.

I can't take it.

 

[telephone89]

he IS a lunatic!

I mean, I get that in one way, changing the star to a circle almost admits guilt. It says either 'Oh shit! We didn't realize this was offensive!' Admiting it was offensive or "Hehe maybe nobody noticed and we got away with it" still being offensive. So, keeping it as a star and 'defending' it as a star, sure. Go for it. Good luck with that!

And wtf about Saddam. That whole situation is probably way too complicated for him to comprehend...Praising him for killing people is really off base =/

 

[asscherisme]

I'm no fan of Trump, but I'm not going to lump his entire staff in with him. Maybe that's naïve, but that isn't who I am and not the person I want to be.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, telephone, although I am more than 100% sure that Trump's staff did what they did deliberately. Did you read Matata's article? Did you read the congratulations Trump got from all the people who hate Jews? All of them instantly saw the Star of David, just as they were supposed to. I remember you once posting that you had never met a Jew. When you posted that, I posted-in sympathy-that I had never met anyone from Belize. After I wrote that I started to wonder if it were true. Because I probably wouldn't know if a person I met was from Belize or not. And it made me wonder how you knew that you had never met a Jew. I can only say that when you posted what you did, you probably meant that you never met anyone who declared he was a Jew. Obviously you do not live in an area that is highly Jewish and you and your family may not know as much about the religion as some others. But people who hate Jews have secret handshakes.

AGBF

I added a bit more above if you want to reply to that as well.

I've never met a jew in real life, no. I do participate in online forums and meet people of all creeds, and one of my friends has married a jew, though I've not yet met him.

My city has a very low jewish population, I remember looking it up and posting it. Something like less than half a percent. Perhaps my family doesn't know as much about the religion as some other, but they are still 'first world' citizens, and I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who didn't immediately recognize it is at fault.

Re: your bolded, You called me naïve. I said maybe that's true. But I'd rather be naïve than jump to conclusions and lump people into categories based on a twitter post. Apologies if that was unclear, I see now it was a bit confusing.

ETA- I should add, that I've met people who say they 'used to be' jewish. If they don't consider themselves jewish, then I am not going to.

How do you know you have never met a jew in real life? We no longer are forced to wear yellow stars of David to identify ourselves.

 

[kenny]

That reminds me, for many years I had a wonderful primary care physician.
One year during my pre-annual-physical chit chat he for some reason mentioned being Jewish, adding, "Which you knew of course." ...
I responded, "How would I know you are Jewish".
"My last name.", he replied.
I assured him I have no idea which names are Jewish, nor have I ever had any reason to pay attention to that.

He was gobsmacked.
He said, "I've never met anyone who didn't pay attention to someone being Jewish."
I said, "Why would anyone care about that?"

What a strange conversation, I thought.

 

[partgypsy]

He changed the star to a circle, but now there is a drawing of a weird handshake in upper right corner, that David Duke refers to. What is the symbology of that?

 

[partgypsy]

That reminds me, for many years I had a wonderful primary care physician.
One year during my pre-annual-physical chit chat he for some reason mentioned being Jewish, adding, "Which you knew of course." ...
I responded, "How would I know you are Jewish".
"My last name.", he replied.
I assured him I have no idea which names are Jewish, nor have I ever had any reason to pay attention to that.

He was gobsmacked.
He said, "I've never met anyone who didn't pay attention to someone being Jewish."
I said, "Why would anyone care about that?"

What a strange conversation, I thought.

I can be pretty oblivious to things like this as well. But this could be that I grew up in a city with a huge melting pot of many different European ancestries with many European sounding names. I would probably do better picking out what is considered a Polish name than a Jewish name due to the neighborhood I grew up in. However one side of my husband's grandparents lived in WV in an area where there were no Jewish people (let alone much of any other type of minority) and they would drop things in conversation about "the Jews". I wondered how they knew so much about this ethnic group given that they had never personally known any .

 

[telephone89]

How do you know you have never met a jew in real life? We no longer are forced to wear yellow stars of David to identify ourselves.

Guess you've never heard of a small town where everyone knows everyone? No need to be antagonistic.

 

[asscherisme]

How do you know you have never met a jew in real life? We no longer are forced to wear yellow stars of David to identify ourselves.

Guess you've never heard of a small town where everyone knows everyone? No need to be antagonistic.

I lived in a VERY small town for 5 years and there is a reason I moved away So yes, I not only heard of it, I left.

 

[AGBF]

How do you know you have never met a jew in real life? We no longer are forced to wear yellow stars of David to identify ourselves.

Guess you've never heard of a small town where everyone knows everyone? No need to be antagonistic.

I lived in a VERY small town for 5 years and there is a reason I moved away So yes, I not only heard of it, I left.

It sounds as if you do not like small towns, or at least did not like one small town where you lived. But you are not arguing that living in a small town makes one anti-semitic, are you asscherisme? I am thinking that it would be impossible since Israel has a lot of small towns (or at least it did), and I cannot envision the people in them becoming anti-semitic. Just thinking out loud.

Deb

 

[asscherisme]

How do you know you have never met a jew in real life? We no longer are forced to wear yellow stars of David to identify ourselves.

Guess you've never heard of a small town where everyone knows everyone? No need to be antagonistic.

I lived in a VERY small town for 5 years and there is a reason I moved away So yes, I not only heard of it, I left.

It sounds as if you do not like small towns, or at least did not like one small town where you lived. But you are not arguing that living in a small town makes one anti-semitic, are you asscherisme? I am thinking that it would be impossible since Israel has a lot of small towns (or at least it did), and I cannot envision the people in them becoming anti-semitic. Just thinking out loud.

Deb

No not at all. I was just responding to her snarky comment that I never experienced a small town. I have and I didn't have a great experience but I know there are many many wonderful small towns. I didn't choose the town I lived in, it was for my ex husband's job. I left as soon as I could. My brother lives in one with family in fact. Thats a big leap and really offensive that you made suggesting something I never said about small towns. I am out of this thread.

 

[AGBF]

Thats a big leap and really offensive that you made suggesting something I never said about small towns. I am out of this thread.

I just saw this. It actually wasn't a leap; it was a joke, complete with a wink icon to alert people to the fact it was a joke. Did you really think I would say Israelis could become anti-semitic?

Deb