Is this a really good Buy?

[takingtheplung]

Its amazing how I learn more and more every day on this site!! Thank you pricescope and all the people that make up price scope.

Having said that what do the experts think of these two diamonds?

After recently finding the HCA score, I went ahead and did scores for all the diamonds I have and I thnk I might have found a really good buy. These two diamonds are from the same store. The first one received an HCA score of 1.6 and has a price per carat of $6,124. The second diamond got a much higher HCA score 2.7 and is priced much higher - Price per carat $7,357. This is because the store values colour more than measurements.

#1
Price $8,700
Price Per Carat $6,124
HCA Score 1.6
Report GIA
Cut Excellent
Carat 1.4
colour H
clarity Vs2
Depth % 62.2
Table % 55
Crown Angle 35
Crown % 15.5
Star
Pavilion Angle 40.8
Pavillion % 43%
Girdle Thn - Sltly Thk
Measurements 7.12 - 7.21 X 4.46
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Very Good
Fluorescence none

#2
Price $10,300
Price Per Carat $7,357
HCA Score 2.7
Report GIA
Cut Very Good
Carat 1.4
colour E
clarity Vs2
Depth % 63.1
Table % 56
Crown Angle 35.5
Crown % 15.5
Star
Pavilion Angle 40.8
Pavillion % 43
Girdle Medium - Thk
Measurements 7.05 - 7.11 X 4.47
Polish VG
Symmetry Excellent
Fluorescence none

 

[belle]

did one look much better to you?

 

[takingtheplung]

Honestly - they all look the same to me under the lights.. that is why I am trying to value measurements and opinions from the board. Maybe once I get serious about a diamond like the one I just listed I can get advice on how to look at it under a scope.

 

[belle]

that''s the thing though, you have acutally seen them in person which is far better than the guesstimates we can give here based on the measurements alone.
the best thing you can do, is take your time and really look at the performance. Don''t get sucked into basing your decisions on how the diamonds look under the microscope or on a white paper background. view the diamonds in as natural of an environment as you can and look for the sparkles to be *dancing* around inside the diamond.

 

[Ellen]

While I agree with belle that looking at diamonds, and going with what your eyes love, can trump everything else, the problem is, if you haven''t seen many (or any) excellent cut stones, it''s harder to know what you''re really seeing.

Of the two you posted, I like the angles and depth on the first one better. The second one is deeper, and you are losing some spread (how big it looks face up). You''re losing a bit on the first also, as I have a 1.4 that has a diameter of 7.24x7.26. (7.25)

I actually like the G VS2 you picked earlier, better. Have you compared that one with these?

And also, have you looked at really well cut stones, like Hearts on Fire, or other brands and/or AGS0 graded stones? I just want you to be sure you know what a great diamond looks like before you compare. Because once you get the diamond out of the store, and in a lot of different lighting situations, that where the real difference will show up, and the great cut diamond will truly shine.

 

[takingtheplung]

Ellen,

Great points and questions. Unfortunately I have only found one store that is actively pushing the AGS 0 stone and its a chain store. Longs Jewelers. I have found these diamonds to be really good but I feel I am paying a premium compared to the diamond district in Boston. The problem is the diaomond district in Boston (The two places I have shopped) are not buying AGS 0. One dealer doesn''t carry them at all. The second doesn''t like buying them because he feels they are too hard to sell. Too many people want GIA only.

BTW - the diamond we were talking about last night or yesterday got a HCA score of 1.5 vs the 1.6 that the above got.

 

[belle]

Date: 10/2/2007 9:39:23 AM
Author: Ellen
While I agree with belle that looking at diamonds, and going with what your eyes love, can trump everything else, the problem is, if you haven''t seen many (or any) excellent cut stones, it''s harder to know what you''re really seeing.

Of the two you posted, I like the angles and depth on the first one better. The second one is deeper, and you are losing some spread (how big it looks face up). You''re losing a bit on the first also, as I have a 1.4 that has a diameter of 7.24x7.26. (7.25)

I actually like the G VS2 you picked earlier, better. Have you compared that one with these?

And also, have you looked at really well cut stones, like Hearts on Fire, or other brands and/or AGS0 graded stones? I just want you to be sure you know what a great diamond looks like before you compare. Because once you get the diamond out of the store, and in a lot of different lighting situations, that where the real difference will show up, and the great cut diamond will truly shine.

ellen, i agree that it can be hard to know what you are looking for if you haven''t seen many (or any) diamonds but i do believe that even in those circumstances, one can know if a diamond is good by the ''dancing'' sparkles. it sounds simplistic and maybe even cliche'' but i believe it to be true. once you see the sparkles come alive within a stone, you *know*.

mediocre cuts just don''t have it.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 10/2/2007 9:53:22 AM
Author: takingtheplung
Ellen,

Great points and questions. Unfortunately I have only found one store that is actively pushing the AGS 0 stone and its a chain store. Longs Jewelers. I have found these diamonds to be really good but I feel I am paying a premium compared to the diamond district in Boston. The problem is the diaomond district in Boston (The two places I have shopped) are not buying AGS 0. One dealer doesn''t carry them at all. The second doesn''t like buying them because he feels they are too hard to sell. Too many people want GIA only.

BTW - the diamond we were talking about last night or yesterday got a HCA score of 1.5 vs the 1.6 that the above got.

I understand, but the HCA doeasn''t look at everything, it goes on a few numbers. It is helpful in weeding out undesirable stones.

Looking at the G VS2 vs. H VS2, I also look at these things, which can help indicate which one may be cut better.

Diameter variance is less, which means it''s cut a bit tighter

Symmetry is Ex vs. VG (which won''t really show to the eye, but means the cutter took more care with it)

Depth is less, which is giving you the visual spread it should

Girdle is Med, whereas the other is Thn-sl thk, more variance. Again, just shows the first is cut a bit better

So that''s why I said I liked the G better, but the H would not be horrible or anything. I just think you might as well get the most for your money.


Have you considered buying online? I''m not pushing that, just wondering if it could be an option.

 

[takingtheplung]

Ellen,

you make extremely good points and I really appreciate the feedback. I think at lunch I am going to go back to Longs and try one more time to work with my rep there. I haven''t loved him to this point but he carries the AGS 0 that I want. I am going to try and get the exact measurements but also see if I can find that diamond that lights up a room. I will try to view the diamond better.

Belle - what is your opinion on how to view a diamond. to me under a light they all sparkle. I have a hard time telling the difference in fire and brilliiance.. I can tell the difference in colour but that is it.

As far as online.. I don''t think I can get myself to go that rout. I will consider it though. Is there a particular diamond you would pick out for me? 1.25 - 1.45 8K - 10K price range.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 10/2/2007 10:58:31 AM
Author: takingtheplung
Ellen,

you make extremely good points and I really appreciate the feedback. I think at lunch I am going to go back to Longs and try one more time to work with my rep there. I haven't loved him to this point but he carries the AGS 0 that I want. I am going to try and get the exact measurements but also see if I can find that diamond that lights up a room. I will try to view the diamond better.

Belle - what is your opinion on how to view a diamond. to me under a light they all sparkle. I have a hard time telling the difference in fire and brilliiance.. I can tell the difference in colour but that is it.

As far as online.. I don't think I can get myself to go that rout. I will consider it though. Is there a particular diamond you would pick out for me? 1.25 - 1.45 8K - 10K price range.

I understand the hesitancy, I was there once. I tried to buy locally, it just didn't work out. I'll give you links to stones I myself would buy, and I can be preeeeety picky.

And I have bought stones from these vendors, so I can vouch for the credibility. They were both a true joy to work with. Very reputable.

What you might do is compare the prices of these with the AGS's at the place you are looking, and see what you think. I will add, they don't get any better than most these listed (cut wise).

Bankwire price on this is 9012.38
http://204.17.89.15/diamond/3587/

9984.10
http://204.17.89.15/diamond/3499/



2% Pricescope discount on this one.

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-55634.htm#


5% discount on these (their branded diamond)

Need to determone if eyeclean with them on this one. (don't go by pics)

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-210369.htm#


http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-395296.htm#


http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-260695.htm

 

[takingtheplung]

Ellen,

I am back. The Jeweler is really begging for my business at this store. He really came down on price on an AGS 0 (tripple Zero) 1.516. This 1.516 seems a tad out of my range so he is ordering another 1.28 for me to look at. Unfortunately he doesn''t have a 1.3 or a 1.4 he can order. But here goes. Let me know your thoughts. And yes his diamonds really do seem to jump out at you.

Price $13,999
Price Per Carat $9,234
HCA Score 0.7
Report AGS
Cut AGS Ideal 0
Carat 1.516
colour H
clarity SI1
Depth % 60.3
Table % 56.8
Crown Angle 33.8
Crown % 14.5
Star
Pavilion Angle 40.7
Pavillion % 42.8
Girdle 1.1 - 3.6
Measurements 7.43 - 7.45 x 4.48
Polish
Symmetry
Fluorescence negligable

 

[Ellen]

Well it''s great he wants your business, that may help bargaining on a price!

Here''s a somewhat comperable stone from online (although this is GIA), but it''s just to give you an idea of pricing. 11,540.45 with bankwire.

http://204.17.89.15/diamond/3494/

Now, if you know the color and clarity of the one he''s calling in, look that up on this site to give you an idea of what you could get it for online. Then ask him to match it, or come as close as he can. They do have to pay their workers and have overhead expenses, so it''s reasonable if they charge a bit more. How much more is up to them, and you if you want it.

An AGS0 should be fine. And I meant to tell you earlier when I posted those other stone suggestions, that finding well cut stones past the mid to upper .20''s in size is not as easy. They are out there, but not in abundance. But a 1.28 is a very respectable size!

Let me know how it goes!!

 

[takingtheplung]

Ellen,

Thanks for getting back to me.. Couple of more questions. (I am serisouly losing my mind over this decision I think. I was rolling around in bed dreaming about diamonds all night.)

1. How did you chose this stone as being comparable? http://204.17.89.15/diamond/3494/
One thing that is very confusing to me online is I can find 10 stones with the same colour/clarity and weight for extremely different prices. I have a really hard time comparing store rocks to online.

2. Without basing anything on price or weight, did you think the AGS 0 - 1.516 was a really good cut? The HCA score on that diamond was as good as I have seen. (0.7) Without basing anything on price I am wondering if that is the best diamond I have seen. (I have sent you specs on most of the diamonds I have seen.)

3. Now comparing prices - This same diamond is about $2,000 more per carat than what I have seen from other jewelers (GIA Diamonds). ($9,234 per carat vs $7,000 on average). Should I be paying this much of a premium for AGS 0? That is almost a 25% premium. The diamond you sent me linked above is about $7500 per carat.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 10/3/2007 9:45:33 AM
Author: takingtheplung

Ellen,

Thanks for getting back to me.. Couple of more questions. (I am serisouly losing my mind over this decision I think. I was rolling around in bed dreaming about diamonds all night.)

1. How did you chose this stone as being comparable? http://204.17.89.15/diamond/3494/
One thing that is very confusing to me online is I can find 10 stones with the same colour/clarity and weight for extremely different prices. I have a really hard time comparing store rocks to online.

2. Without basing anything on price or weight, did you think the AGS 0 - 1.516 was a really good cut? The HCA score on that diamond was as good as I have seen. (0.7) Without basing anything on price I am wondering if that is the best diamond I have seen. (I have sent you specs on most of the diamonds I have seen.)

3. Now comparing prices - This same diamond is about $2,000 more per carat than what I have seen from other jewelers (GIA Diamonds). ($9,234 per carat vs $7,000 on average). Should I be paying this much of a premium for AGS 0? That is almost a 25% premium. The diamond you sent me linked above is about $7500 per carat.

lol You are not the first.

It will be ok, it''s a real learning experience, for the future!

OK, I picked that stone because it was the same size, color, clarity. It is comperable because even though it''s a GIA, it''s a well cut stone. It could easily go up against an AGS (and falls within AGS ideal category).

I''m not sure who and where you are looking at stones, to find such descrepancies in pricing, but I would imagine the level of cut has a lot to do with it.

Yes, the 1.51 would be a great stone. A word of caution though. You had a score with one stone of 1.6 (based on rounded #''s though), that is just as good as .7. In fact, it is said by the HCA designer that some prefer in the 1-2 range better, but I really have no idea if that''s the case. What I''m really saying is, anything under 2 is worth looking at. There is no "better" score.

As for the price per ct., there are a couple things going on. An AGS grading report can, and usually does bring more money (in a retail store), and, as I pointed out before, retail stores charge more because of overhead, salaries, advertising, etc. It''s rare to get the same price at a B&M, that you would get online for the same stone (but it''s happened). That''s why so many are turning to online to buy.

As for the premium (whatever it ended up being, contingant upon if you haggle price), and whether you should pay it, well, that''s up to you.

 

[takingtheplung]

I guess let me ask you this one last question. If price was not part of the equation at all and for all purposes weight wasn''t your primary objection but the most perfect stone was. Which stone would you chose? And Why?

#1
HCA Score 1.6
Report GIA
Cut Excellent
Carat 1.4
colour H
clarity Vs2
Depth % 62.2
Table % 55
Crown Angle 35
Crown % 15.5
Star
Pavilion Angle 40.8
Pavillion % 43%
Girdle Thn - Sltly Thk
Measurements 7.12 - 7.21 X 4.46
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Very Good
Fluorescence none

HCA Score 1.5
Report GIA
Cut Excellent
Carat 1.28
colour G
clarity Vs2
Depth % 61.2
Table % 56
Crown Angle 35
Crown % 15.5
Star
Pavilion Angle 40.8
Pavillion % 43
Girdle M
Measurements 6.99 - 7.06 X 4.30
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Fluorescence none

HCA Score 0.7
Report AGS 0
Cut Ideal
Carat 1.516
colour H
clarity SI1
Depth % 60.3
Table % 56.8
Crown Angle 33.8
Crown % 14.5
Star
Pavilion Angle 40.7
Pavillion % 42.8
Girdle 1.1 - 3.6
Measurements 7.43 - 7.45 x 4.48
Polish
Symmetry
Fluorescence negligable

 

[Ellen]

Well, I don''t really know the numbers on the first two, because they are rounded, so it''s not quite a fair comparison. Taking that into consideration, I''d pick them in this order.

3
2
1

 

[takingtheplung]

I just got a call from another jeweler that is going to get an AGS 0 (Tripple Zero) Hearts and Arrow stone. 1.29 G VS1 - $10,500.

Between this and the other AGS 0 I am going to look at later this week I might have two very good choices.

What is Hearts and Arrows? (I obviously know where the term comes from) but is that a stone that a company hand picks as a "Cut above idea" type thing?

 

[fisiogrl]

Don''t get confused by HCA scores!

Anything below a 2 is FINE - you then have to use other criteria to choose between them. Use the HCA to ELIMINATE stones not to rank them. (made that mistake myself the first time around

Have you read the tutorials? Get to know what Hearts and Arrows are, that way and you will be able to make a safer comparison. It is a specific symmetrical cut, which may indicate a very nicely cut diamond, but also carries a bit of a cost premium. i like them myself.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/3/2007 12:07:55 PM
Author: takingtheplung
I just got a call from another jeweler that is going to get an AGS 0 (Tripple Zero) Hearts and Arrow stone. 1.29 G VS1 - $10,500.

Between this and the other AGS 0 I am going to look at later this week I might have two very good choices.

What is Hearts and Arrows? (I obviously know where the term comes from) but is that a stone that a company hand picks as a ''Cut above idea'' type thing?

Until Ellen checks in, this should answer your questions about H&A cuts.

https://www.pricescope.com/hearts_indx.asp