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Is it possible for me to have GIA certify diamonds I own that were not accompanied by a certificate

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venus

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I love diamond jewelry and over the years have accumulated several expensive pieces. When I was more inexperienced I bought some pieces for which I paid a lot but which I now believe were overpricedd for the quality of the stones. As I learned more about diamonds and became a more educated consumer I''ve bought better pieces of higher quality most of which cames with a GIA certificate. Here is my question, Can I have GIA certify and inscribe the other stones I bought early on that do not have certificates or came with EGL certficates . I want to do this to satisfy my curiousity regarding the quality and specs of these pieces. As a follow question, I would also like to know whether the stones need to be unset and unmounted to be graded by GIA? My stones are set and I would not want to unset them to have them graded.... TIA for your responses. Must say that I find this forum very educational and WISH I had found this forum to educate myself before I ever bought a diamond!
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 3/15/2009 1:24:44 AM
Author:venus
I love diamond jewelry and over the years have accumulated several expensive pieces. When I was more inexperienced I bought some pieces for which I paid a lot but which I now believe were overpricedd for the quality of the stones. As I learned more about diamonds and became a more educated consumer I''ve bought better pieces of higher quality most of which cames with a GIA certificate. Here is my question, Can I have GIA certify and inscribe the other stones I bought early on that do not have certificates or came with EGL certficates . I want to do this to satisfy my curiousity regarding the quality and specs of these pieces. As a follow question, I would also like to know whether the stones need to be unset and unmounted to be graded by GIA? My stones are set and I would not want to unset them to have them graded.... TIA for your responses. Must say that I find this forum very educational and WISH I had found this forum to educate myself before I ever bought a diamond!
 

Modified Brilliant

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Hi Venus,

We''re glad to have you here on pricescope.
Perhaps, as an option, you might find a professional gemologist/appraiser in your area with excellent
references who could do the following for you:
Review your current lab documents/appraisals and verify their accuracy.
Review purchase prices vs. current retail replacement values to help keep your insurance coverage updated.
Check your prongs, craftsmanship, suggest any needed repairs, etc.
Take multiple digital photos of your items for inventory and have them put on a CD for long term safekeeping.
Ask any questions about your jewelry.
Usually for an hourly rate, this can be accomplished and it will be time well spent.
An experienced professional appraiser will work on your behalf to provide you with peace of mind.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 

oldmancoyote

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
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GIA will grade any diamond provided

a) it is loose
b) it is not clarity enhanced through fracture filling (laser drilling is OK)

GIA also provides an "identification report" for complete jewellery pieces, but I think it''s totally useless (it will only tell you the stone is a diamond - no colour or clarity grade provided, even as a range, unless they count "near colourless" without any further indication as a range).
 

venus

Rough_Rock
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Thanks very much to everyone who has responded so far. I see from your responses that the stones do need to be unmounted to be graded by GIA.

I also like Modified Brilliant's suggestion and I might actually do that for record keeping purposes.

But back to my main question which has not been answered directly yet : Can I (a member of the public) have GIA certify and inscribe stones I own that were bought with no certificate at all or which were certified by EGL (which is less reputable for accurate grading)?
 

kindred

Brilliant_Rock
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Date: 3/15/2009 11:49:04 AM
Author: venus
But back to my main question which has not been answered directly yet : Can I (a member of the public) have GIA certify and inscribe stones I own that were bought with no certificate at all or which were certified by EGL (which is less reputable for accurate grading)?
Yes. You will have to unmount the diamonds though.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Hi Venus,
Great advice given so far.
For sure you''re going to need some professional assistance if you decide to go ahead with this.

Not to take anything away from professional appraisers- who serve a vital role in the Jewelry business- but if you are going to do this, you''ll need to find someone to remove, and then re-set your diamonds. Even if you have an appraiser, it''s crucial to have a really good diamond setter.
Maybe you could actually start by giving us some details, and then we can offer some initial assistance.
Things like the shape, the weight and claimed quality, and also how the stones are currently set.
 

venus

Rough_Rock
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RockDiamond. Here goes. I think I'm VERY color sensitive and can pretty accurately judge colors between D I. I like ICY WHITE stones (not a fan of stones lower than G.) My ideal stones are icy white with lots of what I believe is called broad and pinfire flash and fire (learned that from watching some of Rhino's videos at GOG
). I've unfortunately tended to keeping buying another stud or bracelet in search of stones that that just light up. Lately though I'd rather just spend more once to get it right the first time.

So here's an inventory of the jewelry Iv'e acquired over the years.


*TWO PAIRS OF STUDS - 1.5CT EGL Certified , 2.10 CT - No Certificate. The EGL Certificate says the studs are EF Color, Good Polish, Good symmetry. They're white but I don't think they're EF more like a GH. I don't see the razor sharp facets I see when I look into my D/ VS/ GIA certified pendant though and they look a little milky to. Maybe they have flourescence? But then again they look fine if I'm not looking at them next to my D/ VS. The 2.10 CT was sold to me as GH, SI1. I think the color is probably right at GH but they are not eye clean. I can see one tiny black carbon pinpoint and one small white cystal through the table. These 2CT studs were "the" first diamonds I ever bought and probably my biggest mistake quality wise but back then I knew zero about diamonds except that I wanted studs!
Oh well. Fast forward to today and I am now looking to purchase the perfect studs; 3 CT STUDS D COLOR, SI CLARITY, Ex, Ex,Ex for about $28-31K. GIA Certified. I already have a vendor in mind but I've seen some amazing quality stones at GOG so I'm debating whether to look into that vendor too.

* ONE SOLITAIRE PENDANT - D Color VS Clarity Very Good Symmetry and Good Polish. GIA Certified. Razor shapr looking facets when you gaze into the stone and AMAZING broad and pinfoint flashes of fire. Lots of scintillation. I love this icy white color and it's the piece that I am happiest with.

*ONE 10 CT RIVIERA NECKLACE WITH GRADUATING SIZE INDIVIDUALLY PRONG SET ROUND BRILLIANTS - No certificate. Stones look white enough. I estimate GH/SI EYE CLEAN STONES.

*4 BRACELETS (3 CTS BEZEL SET ROUNDS, 6 CTS INVISIBLE PRONG SET ROUNDS, 7 CTS INDIVIDUAL PRONG SET ROUNDS, 10 CTS PRINCESS CUT CHANEL SET STONES WHICH ARE VERY LARGE STONES) No certificate for any of the bracelets. The 3 CT was sold to me as GH/SI and I think that is correct. They're very white stones. The 7 CT is my least satisfying of the 4. It's a 4 rows of about 210 small stones which I think are to yellow in daylight tho they have nice fire and flash at night. Really regret this purchase. The 10 Carat Princess cut bracelt is my favorite - it is simply stunning even in natural day light with AMAZING fire and scintillation at night, vey white - looks almost like cz's they are so perfect. Pretty close to my D/VS pendant I'd say.

*ONE INSIDE OUTSIDE HOOP MADE OF 8 CT INDIVIADUALLY PRONG SET ROUNDS No certificate but I say at least a EF color by whiteness (I compared it to my D color VS pendant) with brillliant broad and pinpoint flash, great fire and scintillation.

*THREE RINGS (2cttw, 2cctw, 1.5cttw)- 2 CTW THREE STONE RING WITH OVAL CUT PRONG SET STONES, 2 CTTW 3 ROW PYRAMID RING MADE OF INDIVIDUALLY PRONG SET ROUNDS, 2 CCTW CHANEL AND PRONG SET WAVE STYLE RING. No Certificates for the rings. The 2 Ct oval has HUGE stones with nice facet when you gaze into the stone and good fire and flash but a little low on the color scale by my estimation. Looks hite but next to my other stones especially my D Color I'd estimate it's maybe even an H or I. I'm debating whether to keep this ring - the ring is beautiful and looks white if I don't compare it to my other pieces which all look like GH or better in Color. I'm not a fan of warm stones and much prefer icy white stones as close to my D as possible.

* 2 CT STARFISH PENDANT WITH PAVE SET STONES. No certificate. The stones are very white when compared to my D and I estimate the stones are at least GH.

*ONE DIAMOND DIAL DIAMOND BEZEL ROLEX PRESIDENTIAL - The diamonds on the bezel were factory set and are EF color so I'm satisfied with their whiteness and fire.


I REALY REALLY want to get the 3cctw studs I am looking to buy right because I think of the money spent on the other two studs as money I threw away - I'm unsatisfied with the stones but can't sell them since resale value is so low and feel I'm stuck with them even though I'm unhappy with them. I'd like to educate myself to make sure my future purchases are smart.
 

oldmancoyote

Brilliant_Rock
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755
To be honest, I don''t see what you would accomplish by having the stones re-graded. I don''t think the "razor sharp facets" that you seem to like have anything to do with colour either. I would instead suggest that you:

1. Choose a vendor or two that you feel comfortable with, and share with them your preferences - ideally showing them the stones you like and the ones you don''t in a "live" meeting; failing that, take good pictures that you feel capture the character that you find appealing (or otherwise) of the stones.

2. See what they come up with, how that compares with your expectations and budget

3. Make a choice which is - hopefully - better informed, but does not simply depend on "the piece of paper". As you have probably learned browsing PS, it''s quite common to find two diamonds that are "the same" on paper but look very different in real life!

(4. Keep us informed throughout if you want to discuss and exchange ideas and views.)
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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I'm with OMC, I’m not understanding what you’re hoping to gain by this exercise. You’re not buying them, you’re not selling them and a capable appraiser can provide you with sufficient information for your insurance, estate planning or similar purposes, to the extent that you don’t already have it, quickly, without removing them from the settings and for a fraction of the cost. The proposed plan (pull stones out of the settings, ship them to GIA for grading, repair the settings and reset them) is expensive, risky and time consuming to learn something that you apparently already know. Where’s the upside?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

venus

Rough_Rock
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Date: 3/16/2009 11:12:00 AM
Author: denverappraiser
I'm with OMC, I’m not understanding what you’re hoping to gain by this exercise. You’re not buying them, you’re not selling them and a capable appraiser can provide you with sufficient information for your insurance, estate planning or similar purposes, to the extent that you don’t already have it, quickly, without removing them from the settings and for a fraction of the cost. The proposed plan (pull stones out of the settings, ship them to GIA for grading, repair the settings and reset them) is expensive, risky and time consuming to learn something that you apparently already know. Where’s the upside?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Ah, but that is the is exactly what is at issue here. I do not *know.* Only two pieces that came with certificates one of them EGL at that and another GIA so apart from these two I have only what I was told at the time of purchase, namely that they are X or Y. Additionally, I provided in my post my best "guess" regarding what I actually believe them to be based on my experience observing graded stones or comparing the color to how close or yellow it is to a stone witth a Known graded. I'm aware that facet does not influence color but in my post above I spoke equally of flash and scintillation which (I may be wrong) but in mind is light return?

Ideally what I would like to know are the crown, pavillion depth, angles etc of stones which give me the best light performance not just the color. Colorwise even though I don't *know* I think my guesses are pretty dead on. But I would like the table, pavillion angle, crown angle etc. of the stones that perform best so I have some idea of what to look for going forward (especially since I've decided to purchase only pieces accompanied by a GIA certificate going forward). I want to know the specs of the stones I like and the ones I don't as I feel that would help me to pick or eliminate stones going forward. I want to know the specs of stones that are beautiful and the specs of the ones that are a dud. To my mind that might help me know what stones to avoid going forward? Don't know if that clarifies my motivations.....
 

Fly Girl

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
7,312
I think an appraiser could tell you what you want to know about your current jewelry. Going forward, you can insist on all the certificates you want on your new purchases.
 

venus

Rough_Rock
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Denver Appriaser, let me ask another question.

Ideally, I don''t want 3 pairs of studs because then I''d probably have to try resetting at least one if not two pairs as say leverbacks or in yellowgold or something to make them useful once I purchase the 3 cttw Studs. Here is my question : Do you think if I had my two studs I currently own GIA certified that would helpme sell them more easily?

I may be wrong, but it seems GIA certified stones might sell more readily?
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Venus,

Let’s take this item for example:

*ONE 10 CT RIVIERA NECKLACE WITH GRADUATING SIZE INDIVIDUALLY PRONG SET ROUND BRILLIANTS - No certificate. Stones look white enough. I estimate GH/SI EYE CLEAN STONES.

I’m going to assume that there are 40 stones here. Here’s a thumbnail of your budget for the project:

Jeweler to remove and reset 40 stones: $800
Insured shipping to and from GIA: $120
GIA lab fees: $1600
Prong repair as required: $0-500 (I'll use $200)

Total fees: $2720

Allow 3-6 weeks depending on the workload of the setter and the GIA staff. Bear in mind that you still don’t have a value and you know nothing at all about the details or craftsmanship on the mounting. For this you need an appraisal.

Most appraisers are at about $100 or less for this sort of work and many can do it while you wait.

It’s certainly true that the reliability of the data on the individual diamonds is better with the GIA reports but again, since you’re neither buying or selling, what have you gained for your extra $2700 that makes this worthwhile? Even if you WERE buying or selling this wouldn’t make any sense.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 3/16/2009 12:48:45 PM
Author: venus
Denver Appriaser, let me ask another question.


Ideally, I don't want 3 pairs of studs because then I'd probably have to try resetting at least one if not two pairs as say leverbacks or in yellowgold or something to make them useful once I purchase the 3 cttw Studs. Here is my question : Do you think if I had my two studs I currently own GIA certified that would helpme sell them more easily?


I may be wrong, but it seems GIA certified stones might sell more readily?
It’s going to depend on who you’re selling to, what it turns out you actually have and a bit of plain old luck. If you’re direct selling to a consumer and the stone is at least decent in terms of grading then GIA pedigree often helps. If you’re selling to a dealer or the information on the report is seen as a defect (for example a cut grade of ‘poor’, I2 clarity or a color below M), you may be better off without it and it's almost certain that you won't be able to recover the expenses.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

venus

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Date: 3/16/2009 12:55:04 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Venus,

Let’s take this item for example:

*ONE 10 CT RIVIERA NECKLACE WITH GRADUATING SIZE INDIVIDUALLY PRONG SET ROUND BRILLIANTS - No certificate. Stones look white enough. I estimate GH/SI EYE CLEAN STONES.

I’m going to assume that there are 40 stones here. Here’s a thumbnail of your budget for the project:

Jeweler to remove and reset 40 stones: $800
Insured shipping to and from GIA: $120
GIA lab fees: $1600
Prong repair as required: $0-500 (I''ll use $200)

Total fees: $2720

Allow 3-6 weeks depending on the workload of the setter and the GIA staff. Bear in mind that you still don’t have a value and you know nothing at all about the details or craftsmanship on the mounting. For this you need an appraisal.

Most appraisers are at about $100 or less for this sort of work and many can do it while you wait.

It’s certainly true that the reliability of the data on the individual diamonds is better with the GIA reports but again, since you’re neither buying or selling, what have you gained for your extra $2700 that makes this worthwhile? Even if you WERE buying or selling this wouldn’t make any sense.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
OK, DenverAppraiser, for a piece such as the 10cttw Riviera it might not make sense or at least be too expensive a project.

Above I asked you specifically about the two studs. Do you think the studs at least would be worth grading? Would obtaining a GIA certficate help to sell the two pairs of studs since I am looking to purchase a 3 cttw pair and from past experience do not see myself wearing the other two pairs I own once I''ve purchased my dream studs.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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The only items that might be worth sending to GIA are the Earrings. If you have doubts about the other pieces seek a professional appraiser.

OMC''s advice is good regarding future purchases..
To avoid these problems in the future, please choose your dealer carefully.
 

venus

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
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Thanks DenverAppraiser. Sorry! I overlooked your second response. Well, taking into consideration your response , I know you don't recommend it, but I'm still leaning towards having if only the two studs GIA graded to see if I can sell them once I buy the 3 CT Studs. I think they are probably at least GH or better. As to the cut, I couldn't begin to guess except to say I'm sure Ithe studs are definitely not EX or Ideal and may even be only be good or fair based on light performance but it might be worth it if Iit helps to unload them?

Here is my next question: Would the Appraisal you suggest speak to more than pricing or valuing a piece? Would it offer an opinion regarding the color/cut/clarity etc of the pieces.


My question is due to the fact that I've always thought of an Appraisal as just giving an estimate of what the monetary value or replacement value of a piece might be? The only Appraisals I've come in contact with so far are Retailers Appraisal and I personally tended to not rely on them, viewing them as a sales picth to inflate the supposed retail value thus making me willing to pay more If I think I'm getting a really expensive piece for half of the i(nflated) appraisal price? So , if I as the owner (and possibly Seller) of a piece got an Appraisal, wouldn't a potential buyer view my appraisal in the same way I did in the past.

So assuming that I would be obtaing the Appraisal only to satisfy my curiousity about the specs of what I own (or for insurance purposes) would the Appraisal you mention speak to cut/clarity/color etch which is what I'm really curious to know. (not so much esimatating the value of the item).

Thanks very much to DenverAppraisal and everyone else who has responded for your patient and detailed responses. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to answer my posts!

 

venus

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
17
Date: 3/16/2009 11:02:06 AM
Author: oldmancoyote
To be honest, I don''t see what you would accomplish by having the stones re-graded. I don''t think the ''razor sharp facets'' that you seem to like have anything to do with colour either. I would instead suggest that you:

1. Choose a vendor or two that you feel comfortable with, and share with them your preferences - ideally showing them the stones you like and the ones you don''t in a ''live'' meeting; failing that, take good pictures that you feel capture the character that you find appealing (or otherwise) of the stones.

2. See what they come up with, how that compares with your expectations and budget

3. Make a choice which is - hopefully - better informed, but does not simply depend on ''the piece of paper''. As you have probably learned browsing PS, it''s quite common to find two diamonds that are ''the same'' on paper but look very different in real life!

(4. Keep us informed throughout if you want to discuss and exchange ideas and views.)
I think these are excellent suggestions and will definitely do so going forward.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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An appraisal is an opinion of value for a particular item, in a particular marketplace and on a particular date. This means that for the appraisal to be of any use at all it must identify those attributes that lead to value. In the case of diamonds, this means grading, and every professional jewelry appraiser must first be a capable grader. An appraisal that doesn't include this basic information is worth less than nothing. Note the qualifier ‘professional’. This is a completely unregulated field and anyone who wants to can print up a card that calls themselves an appraiser (or gem lab) and if their off and running. This doesn't mean that their opinions have merit. Choose a professional appraiser, not someone who thinks of it as a sideline to support their sales business. There's a list at the top of the page under 'resources'.

An appraisal must also identify what marketplace and value definition they are discussing. The same thing can cost differently under different circumstances after all and even the right answer to the wrong question is doing you no favors. You’re right to be suspicious of appraisals presented to you as a sales tool. All appraisals, and all appraisers are not the same.

We’ve made progress although I point out you’ve changed or at least clarified your stated purpose. Your objective now is to have paperwork that you can use as an advertisement to get the best price on resale. I’m still not convinced that your best next step is to take them apart and ship things to California because we just don’t know enough about the plans and how different paperwork might play into it. I wrote an article about this in the journal section here that you might find useful:

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/66/1/A-consumer%E2%80%99s-guide-to-reselling-diamonds.aspx


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

venus

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Date: 3/16/2009 2:43:48 PM
Author: denverappraiser
An appraisal is an opinion of value for a particular item, in a particular marketplace and on a particular date. This means that for the appraisal to be of any use at all it must identify those attributes that lead to value. In the case of diamonds, this means grading, and every professional appraiser must first be a capable grader. An appraisal that doesn't include this basic information is worth less than nothing. Note the qualifier ‘professional’. This is a completely unregulated field and anyone who wants to can print up a card that calls themselves an appraiser (or gem lab) and if their off and running. This doesn't mean that their opinions have merit. Choose a professional appraiser, not someone who thinks of it as a sideline to support their sales business. There's a list at the top of the page under 'resources'.

An appraisal must also identify what marketplace and value definition they are discussing. The same thing can cost differently under different circumstances after all and even the right answer to the wrong question is doing you no favors. You’re right to be suspicious of appraisals presented to you as a sales tool. All appraisals, and all appraisers are not the same.

We’ve made progress although I point out you’ve changed or at least clarified your stated purpose. Your objective now is to have paperwork that you can use as an advertisement to get the best price on resale. I’m still not convinced that your best next step is to take them apart and ship things to California because we just don’t know enough about the plans and how different paperwork might play into it. I wrote an article about this in the journal section here that you might find useful:

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/66/1/A-consumer%E2%80%99s-guide-to-reselling-diamonds.aspx


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Denver, thank you so much for clarifying the various merits and purposes of a Good Professional Appraisal. Very informative. I will definitely take a look at the attached article.

I haven't changed my purpose at all. True, it occurred to me that unloading the two studs might not be a bad idea and I wondered whether a GIA certificate might also help with that. However my objective was and still remains the same: namely, I'd like to obtain accurate information to satisfy my curiousity about the pedigree or specs of the jewelry I own. This sort of ties into OMC posts namely I wanted to identify the specs for pieces that wow me and specs for pieces I consider a dud to help me in my selection process going forward. I see from your posts that an Appraisal may be a more cost effective way to try to achieve more or less my objective especially on pieces with multiple stones.
 

oldmancoyote

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
755
Venus, if I may add one point - you seem to think that by getting specs (as per a grading report or appraisal) on what you own you'll be able to draw some conclusions on what to go for and what to avoid. Apart from the considerations put forward by Neil and David above, I don't think it's going to be that simple for a number of reasons:

1. If you were to get reports by GIA or AGSL, you'd still have very incomplete information from them regarding cut quality and consistency. Remember that a lab grading report will contain only (rounded) averages, and not for all important measurements. A Sarin or Helium scan - which a grading lab does not supply, but a well equipped gemologist/appraiser may, if the stone is loose - may contain enough information to "replicate" the stone, but see 4. below.

2. Two diamonds with exactly the same numbers on a grading report may look quite different in reality, since the same average pavillion angle (for example) can correspond to two rather different distributions of the actual angles. If you read the recent article by Karl (strmrdr) available here, you'll notice that even minor variations in some critical dimensions can have a significant effect on the appearance of the diamond. Even worse can happen in terms of overall "qualitative" evaluations on things like cut, simmetry, polish - where the ranges really specify very little.

3. There may well be several different ways of obtaining the same look (for the same budget) by using a judicious combination of cut parameters, colour and clarity - plus the always helpful strange discontinuities in pricing that make a 2.00 carat diamond worth 15% more than a 1.95.

4. Strictly related to 3. above - you may unduly restrict yourself in future purchases by wanting to "match" something that is not necessarily ideal, or worse pick something that does not match expectations by relying on incorrect parameters. Let's say that the diamonds you like have a GIA cut grading of Excellent; let's further say that a very nice stone has a cut grade of very good (it can and does happen). Would you even look at this? How about picking non-rounds?
 

kindred

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
945
If you want to judge cut of your current diamonds or determine cut quality of possible future purchases, you can purchase an Ideal Scope for round diamonds or an Asset Scope to judge other shapes. There is a lot of info on Pricescope on how to use them. They are relatively inexpensive and will tell you more than even GIA's cut grading will.

An independent appraiser will still be able to give you color and clarity information without un-mounting your stones (though they can't be sure what is under prongs), and will cost you much less than sending everything to GIA.
 

kindred

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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Messages
945
Also, some independent appraisers can even give you state of the art cut grading analysis, but you might have to un-mount your stones for that and it will cost more, so I''d really recommend the Ideal Scope or Asset Scope linked above to judge cut quality.
 
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