Is it Fraud or Fraud by Omission?

[niceice]

What is wrong with this GIA Diamond Grading Report:

The first thing you might notice is that the plotting diagram looks exceptionally "clean"... That is because it isn''t an authentic GIA diamond grading report, it is a "virtual diamond grading report" based on a template of a GIA Diamond Grading Report... But beyond that, the format of the lab report isn''t even current... The date on the lab report indicates that it was created on April 24, 2002 but in January of 2002 the GIA began to use their new format which placed the plotting diagram and the "key to symbols" below the "comments" section located in the bottom left side of the lab report and the GIA clarity and grading scales were placed vertically in the middle of the lab report. On the lab report pictured above, the plotting diagram and "key to symbols" appears in the upper right section of the lab report which is the old format for the GIA lab report.

The offending party is http://www.diamondcutters.com and a quick scan of their inventory will show that this is not a "single incident" nor an "oversight" on their part but common practice. Every one of the GIA lab reports that we clicked on resulted in the creation of one of these virtual GIA diamond grading reports...

We know that the GIA finds this practice to be unacceptable because their legal department hit the roof when we brought the matter to their attention. The virtual creation of GIA lab reports is not only a fraudulent consumer practice, but it is also a violation of trademark and copyright law. So we''re wondering what the public thinks about this practice... Is this an acceptable practice from the perspective of diamond buyers who are using this type of virtual diamond grading report as a basis for their on-line purchase? Or is it Fraud by Omission? After all, that plotting diagram is the same for every GIA graded diamond that we clicked on from their inventory... That means that an SI-2 clarity diamond displays the exact same plotting diagram that is displayed for a diamond with Flawless clarity... So who''s fault is it when a consumer discovers that there is a substantial feather running along the girdle edge of their SI-2 clarity diamond? We have to wonder what dealers are thinking when they try these "slide of hand / now you see it, now you don''t" tactics...

 

[oldminer]

I hope you have reported this to the GIA as well. It seems to be so obvious, but to a novice, it would seem a well done document.

 

[niceice]

We reported the matter to the legal department at the GIA who was "displeased" to say the least and to The Jewelers Vigilance Committee in NYC because it seems to us that the dealer already knows that this practice is fraudulent and has chosen to proceed with doing so anyway just to save a little scanning time... The matter came to our attention because a customer was asking why our VS-2 clarity diamonds were so much more included than the ones advertised by DC, needless to say that when we took a look at the lab report in question we were able to answer the question...

 

[mike04456]

It's fraud, no question about it. Anything other than a facsimile of the actual report is an intentional deception. And here, it's clear they are doing it to keep the customer from seeing the actual plotting diagram.

I'm sure GIA and JVC will have these guys shut down in short order. The trademark/copyright infringement alone is enough to get an ex parte order seizing their web server and taking them offline.

 

[Rank Amateur]

If I ever go into the diamond business, remind me to stay on Robin and Todd's good side.

 

[rbjd]

It sure looks like intentional misrepresentation to me. Particularly in light of the fact that at least one consumer was confused by it. There are bound to be others. GIA is right to be upset about it also because it is a reflection on GIA's credibility.

 

[Mara]

Good catch R/T....that is a horrible misrepresentation of the stone and it's cert and a regular consumer would have no way to know the difference between the old GIA reports and the new ones...and many may not even think to ask why there are no inclusions plotted. Ridiculous--it's sites such as these that perpetuate the fear of getting 'taken' by purchasing over the internet...tsk tsk!

 

[BecomingACutNerd]

I went to this site a couple of weeks ago and saw the same thing. My assumption was that they were not trying to say that that was the actual report, but that they were trying to be "cute" about how they display the GIA cert data. Just like with most other sites that don't display the actual scanned cert, I saw what they had to offer and cruised to another site. Let's put it this way: I wasn't willing to do more work and e-mail those jokers to get a copy of the actual cert. I guess I felt a little cheated, and I also felt like they might have something to hide.

On a more general note, why doesn't every retailer just display the scanned cert online? I guess it's more difficult to get an image of the cert from the supplier than I think, but if the seller doesn't have a copy of the cert to scan, then why should I trust the numbers that the seller puts on the site? Usually, if the site doesn't have any certs available to look at (without having to email them for it), like the aforementioned site, or Mondera, then they are bumped down on my list, and odds are I won't contact them for more information. If the site has some certs, but not the particular diamond I want to know about (like DCD, DBOF), I'm more willing to email for it, but it really drives me nuts. I don't want to feel like I'm making the seller run around in circles for ten diamonds that I may not even be interested in once I see the report.

Sorry to ramble slightly off topic, but since I've started shopping for a diamond, this is probably my #1 gripe about online shopping. Just put the friggin' cert online!

 

[niceice]

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On 7/22/2003 5:45:58 PM BecomingACutNerd wrote:
I went to this site a couple of weeks ago and saw the same thing. My assumption was that they were not trying to say that that was the actual report, but that they were trying to be "cute" about how they display the GIA cert data.

{text removed so that we can reference the section of BecomingACutNerd's response}

On a more general note, why doesn't every retailer just display the scanned cert online? I guess it's more difficult to get an image of the cert from the supplier than I think...

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This is the really funny part, DiamondCutters.com had to have the actual report on-hand because they included the keys to symbols on the virtual lab report that they created... The cutter's do not include a description of the inclusion types on their inventory lists so these guys had to enter the information into their database... It seems to us that they're either incredibly lazy and simply don't feel like scanning the lab reports (which takes a whole 30 seconds per report) or they simply don't want people to see the plotting diagram for the diamond they are buying which seems absurd because they're going to see it sooner or later... And on that note, how are people going to react when they looked at one format of GIA lab report when they bought the diamond and then later receive a lab report in another format after receiving the diamond? That would totally flip us out!

 

[69gm]

nice catch, niceice! this isn't the first of these type of certs i've seen online...

 

[aljdewey]

HA! If I were a betting person, I'd wager that the reason DC mocks up the certificates is this:

These diamonds have been identified by GIA as WARPED!!!

Woo hoo hoo!!! HA ha ha! ROTFLMAO.

Freddie's not the ONLY one who can spot something warped!

(ok, totally tongue in cheek here, but I couldn't resist.)

 

[niceice]

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On 7/23/2003 5:52:47 PM aljdewey wrote:
HA! If I were a betting person, I'd wager that the reason DC mocks up the certificates is this:

These diamonds have been identified by GIA as WARPED!!!

Woo hoo hoo!!! HA ha ha! ROTFLMAO.

Freddie's not the ONLY one who can spot something warped!

(ok, totally tongue in cheek here, but I couldn't resist.)----------------

Hmmm, "DiamondCutters.com"... "Diamond Cutters International" (Fred Cuellar's pet) it "might" just be something in the name but we think it's just a coincidence.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 7/24/2003 4:11:46 PM niceice wrote:

Hmmm, "DiamondCutters.com"... "Diamond Cutters International" (Fred Cuellar's pet) it "might" just be something in the name but we think it's just a coincidence.
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Ah. Sorry then......my bad. (Although it appears that one is no more ethical than the other!)

 

[mike04456]

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On 7/22/2003 8

9

7 PM niceice wrote:

This is the really funny part, DiamondCutters.com had to have the actual report on-hand because they included the keys to symbols on the virtual lab report that they created... The cutter's do not include a description of the inclusion types on their inventory lists so these guys had to enter the information into their database

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It's worse than that--the information is entirely contained in the html link. In other words, by monkeying around with the URL, you can create your own diamond in their inventory! Look at this--from this link, they've got the De Beers Millenium Star in stock:

http://www.diamondcutters.com/cgi-bin/gifreportX.cgi?report=GIA&measurements=50.06-36.56-18.54&date=May+12+1999&stocknum=3434&shape=PS&size=203.04&color=D&clarity=FL&price=5.00&third=10718445&depth=45.40&gird=+THIN+FACETED&table=54.00&culet=NONE&polish=EXCELLENT&sym=EXCELLENT&fluoresence=NO&comments=GIA&REALCOMS=/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

Who would have thought???

 

[niceice]

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It's worse than that--the information is entirely contained in the html link. In other words, by monkeying around with the URL, you can create your own diamond in their inventory! Look at this--from this link, they've got the De Beers Millenium Star in stock:

http://www.diamondcutters.com/cgi-bin/gifreportX.cgi?report=GIA&measurements=50.06-36.56-18.54&date=May+12+1999&stocknum=3434&shape=P&size=203.04&color=D&clarity=FL&price=5.00&third=10718445&depth=45.40&gird=+THIN+FACETED&table=54.00&culet=NONE&polish=EXCELLENT&sym=EXCELLENT&fluoresence=NO&comments=GIA&REALCOMS=ffice

ffice" />/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>


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Ah-HA-HA-HA you're a GOD!!! We're totally falling all over ourselves!!! You've killed us

Apparently the power to create the "diamond of your dreams" is now available to everybody with a little CGI skill... If you don't find what you're looking for in the DC inventory, just make it!

 

[Mara]

Very nice! I'll take a 400 carat round D FL while yer at it. What are the dimensions on something like THAT.

Too bad the cert doesnt have a price on it. It'd be fun to create certs like that and then be able to put in amounts such as $10.00. HA HA. Print for a little giggle every time you look at your cubicle wall.

 

[Gator]

Here ya go Mara! Daydream away at work!

http://www.diamondcutters.com/cgi-bin/gifreportX.cgi?report=GIA&measurements=87.06-87.06-48.75&date=July+24+2003&stocknum=3434&shape=RD&size=400.01&color=D&clarity=FL&price=5.00&third=24516825&depth=60.9&gird=+MEDIUM&table=56.00&culet=NONE&polish=EXCELLENT&sym=EXCELLENT&fluoresence=NO&comments=GIA&REALCOMS=PRICE:%20$10.%20For%20a%20limited%20time%20buy%201%20at%20regular%20price%20and%20get%20the%20matching%20stone%20half%20off!

 

[Mara]

Gator you are a GODSEND..I just printed it out and tacked it up in the cubicle. Ha Ha...THANKS!

Now about that half off...oh I can only dream!

 

[niceice]

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On 7/24/2003 4:58:57 PM Mara wrote:

Too bad the cert doesnt have a price on it. It'd be fun to create certs like that and then be able to put in amounts such as $10.00. HA HA. Print for a little giggle every time you look at your cubicle wall.

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Well... Actually... Maybe you could work out a little side deal with Leonid Mara, after all, DC does list their stock for sale here on PS and he controls the code that spiders their site to pick up their inventory

 

[mdx]

You guys are too much

That was a nice piece of detective work Lawgem, are you a lawyer or a cop. he he he

Wayne

 

[WalnutCrunch]

I think we might be accusing diamondcutters of a bit much here. Do these "certs" misrepresent the real certs? Yes. But do these people know it will cause confusion, and intentionally did things this way to confuse people or to hide something? We don't know.

I'm in no way defending these people, but as as web developer for almost 8 years now, I've seen a lot of poorly implemented ecommerce sites. Most companies (big or small) do not have fulltime employees working on their sites. They hire contractors. Some are reputable, but there are lots who don't know what they're doing. This site is a textbook example of a poorly built ecommerce site. I mean, passing prices and product descriptions to each page via query string or hidden variables (even the payment screen is done this way to pass info to a 3rd party server)??!! There's nothing stopping someone from ordering a 1ct D IF for $100 (it won't go thru when they the order, but what about smaller changes in price that they might not notice).

While only the people involved know what happened, my guess is that they hired someone's nephew for cheap. He's a programmer who just started developing for the web. While he was building the site, he decided to store each field of the certificate in the database so that the catalog is searchable. That's actually the proper way to do it and there's nothing wrong with it. But instead of storing a scan of the cert (which, programming-wise, is a bit of a pain in the butt as you'd have to give the site administrator a way to upload it, store the picture in the file system instead of the DB, etc), he decided instead to create a "virtual certificate". And looking at what's there, he spent a lot of time on it (probably thinking "wow, this is better than those scans out there!"). The only thing that he didn't include was the plots (which, again, involves uploading and storing an image).

So that was the site that diamondcutters ended up with. They probably noticed the problem with not being able to show the plots but probably didn't realize it was such a big deal (although, as they are finding out now, it IS a big deal).

Anyway, I'm sure lots of you will disagree with me on this, but I can see how it may not have been their intent to misrepresent their products (it's definitely the wrong thing to do and it could still be fraud). That's enough for me to give them a benefit of a doubt until proven otherwise. But everyone loves a conspiracy...

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/25/2003 1:34:28 PM WalnutCrunch wrote:


Anyway, I'm sure lots of you will disagree with me on this, but I can see how it may not have been their intent to misrepresent their products (it's definitely the wrong thing to do and it could still be fraud). That's enough for me to give them a benefit of a doubt until proven otherwise. But everyone loves a conspiracy...

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Your explaination is a sane one. Thanks for your input.

Perhaps I am naive; but, I don't think there are sinister reasons for every mistake.

 

[Mara]

WC you are probably right...lots of inept websites floating around. The sad thing is that this is a commerce site, where people can place orders, so being so ambiguous on such a large purchase is really not acceptable, esp when talking about thousands of dollars of someone's hard earned money being spent at the click of the button. Since I am in eCommerce, I have relatively little tolerance for other people's web stupidity, even at my own company. I am of the firm belief that if you can't do something right, such as a website or a commerce engine, don't do it AT ALL. You will cause more confusion and unhappiness on the consumers part with a half a** site than if you had nothing at all.

Of course some of the burden can rest on those who may purchase from such a site, if you don't do your homework on what you are buying and/or who you buy from, some may argue that you get what you deserve. Others may put the burden of blame on the vendor.

Also what is disappointing as well is that it is sites such as this that perpetuates the mistrust and/or the fear that an internet vendor is out to take your money and run. By not having a professional image and/or relevant and correct information on their site, customers who do give their money to this company may feel misled when they receive the cert and/or stone to find that their SI1 stone really has a big hole in the pavilion that was not shown on the cert. So while they are not intentionally doing the damage, their ignorance and/or laziness has cost something that when repeated time and time again, has negative ramifications that are far reaching IMO.

My two cents!