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Is Girdle thickness that important?

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prberg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
7
Hi all... thanks for all the great info. Feels good to be an informed consumer. Just bought a diamond solitaire ring on sunday and looking at the specs I wonder if I should be worried about a few things (girdle and total depth). I did like the look the the stone.. and there is only one very small crystal that doesn''t bother me. I got it at a B&M but the price seems to in line (after I negotiated) with WF and Blue Nile (I paid around 5100).

1.0 carat round brilliant
6.22x6.24x4.03mm
Color - J
Clarity - VS1
Polish - EX
SYM - EX
Flour - None
Depth - 64.7
Table - 57
Crown angle - 35
crown height - 15
Pav Angle - 41.2
Pav Height - 43.5
Star length - 55
lower half - 75
Girdle - Medium to VERY THICK
Culet - none

Thanks so much,

-Peter
 

bosoxbw

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
69
[newbie disclaimer]

HCA doesn't like it (3.9), and between the depth and the very thick girdle the stone is not facing up as big as it should.
 

ebonykawai

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
235
Well, it's too deep so you're losing diameter. I have a .93ct that's an ideal cut and is 6.33 X 6.37, which basically faces up as 1ct. Paid 4700 for it, it's G VS2. I think you can do much better.

Can you actually see the crystal with your naked eye??
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,426
Hi Peter,

Yes, this stone is way too deep, it''s causing it to face up much smaller than it should. The diameter on a 1 ct. should be 6.5, this one is 6.23.

The crown and pavillion angles are also at a critical point where there could be leakage.

Honestly? I would recommend returning it and trying again. I don''t mean to burst your bubble, but I know you can do better.


Use the HCA to run a potential stones numbers through. You should look for a score of under 2.

http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
The only reason why that is a 1 ct stone is because the girdle is very thick. The cutter didn't even try to hide the weight; it was kept in nearly every place possible.

In an otherwise well-proportioned stone, a thick girdle may act as extra facets, but it is a very weight inefficient way of doing so.

At online prices, such would probably be going around 3-3.5K
 

JohnQuixote

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
5,212
Here is a graphic example of what the posters above are saying.

The top example is modeled at the given proportions.
The bottom is the same diamond with girdle thickness reduced to 1.0% (the depth changes to 61.5%).

Both ''face up'' with the same spread (6.23mm), but the m-vtk girdle sells as 1.0 ct whereas the m girdle sells as 0.89 ct.

57-412-350_G42vsG10.jpg
 

prberg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
7
Great replies.. thanks so much. I had a feeling that some of those numbers were not quite where they should be. So the HC adviser says Very good visual performance. That isn''t a good thing? Or I should be aiming for Excellent? I did see another stone while I was there that was a little smaller but had better visual performance (had better fire and sparkle). But I was pleased with the look of this stone too. But I''m hearing from you guys that I basically overpaid as the diamond is not really a full caret (they hid the weight in areas that don''t add to the beauty or size of the diamond?).

Regarding this stone... the small crystal can only be seen with about 15x-20x magnification. It''s totally eye clean (at least to me). I really like the VS1 rating and the fact that there are so few inclusions (1 that I could see with the scope). I''m big into the diamond being clear.. the color isn''t as important (as you can tell with the ''J''). But I should maybe look for a better ''cut''? (basically meaning that I get the specs more in line with Tolkowky''s numbers?) At least get a smaller girdle?

I know my girlfriend will be happy with whatever ring I give her... but maybe I should try a little harder? I''m glad I fought to keep the return policy (they tried to get rid of it during the negotiations). I still have Tiffany''s in the back of my mind but I''ve read alot of the posts here about that idea and know that their stones are not any better and I am paying for the name. They just do a better job at presentation and customer service than some of these other B&M shops.

-Peter
 

ebonykawai

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
235
Well, in all honesty, it's not very difficult to find a diamond with a much better cut. I ran the numbers through the HAC and they were VG, good, good, good. It's not too hard to find a stone with at least 3 excellents and one very good. I know because I haven't been on these boards that long and both the diamonds I purchased (actually all 5 because I did return some for larger stones, lol) all had an HCA of less than 2. Close to 1, actually. Now I'm not saying that the stone you picked doesn't look good to you, but you might want to check out some stones that have better cuts and compare them to this one. I myself see a big difference in cuts. It's really up to you. In reality, though, finding a well cut stone is not very difficult when you know what to look for. So you need to decide if this stone is good enough, or if you want something better. Maybe instead of limiting yourself to B&M and Tiffany's, you can take a peek at some of the recommended sites here on PS. I personally found fabulous diamonds on James Allen and Blue Nile. Others have found equally great stones at Good Old Gold, White Flash and others. If you want to check around, I'm sure you'll find stones that are much better cut with the clarity you want and probably better color for less than what you spent. Best of luck!
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,426
Date: 2/26/2007 9:26:38 PM
Author: prberg
Great replies.. thanks so much. I had a feeling that some of those numbers were not quite where they should be. So the HC adviser says Very good visual performance. That isn''t a good thing? Or I should be aiming for Excellent? I did see another stone while I was there that was a little smaller but had better visual performance (had better fire and sparkle). But I was pleased with the look of this stone too. But I''m hearing from you guys that I basically overpaid as the diamond is not really a full caret (they hid the weight in areas that don''t add to the beauty or size of the diamond?).

Regarding this stone... the small crystal can only be seen with about 15x-20x magnification. It''s totally eye clean (at least to me). I really like the VS1 rating and the fact that there are so few inclusions (1 that I could see with the scope). I''m big into the diamond being clear.. the color isn''t as important (as you can tell with the ''J''). But I should maybe look for a better ''cut''? (basically meaning that I get the specs more in line with Tolkowky''s numbers?) At least get a smaller girdle?

I know my girlfriend will be happy with whatever ring I give her... but maybe I should try a little harder? I''m glad I fought to keep the return policy (they tried to get rid of it during the negotiations). I still have Tiffany''s in the back of my mind but I''ve read alot of the posts here about that idea and know that their stones are not any better and I am paying for the name. They just do a better job at presentation and customer service than some of these other B&M shops.

-Peter
Appalling.


Peter, yes, as I said before, and ebony also said, you can do much better. If you want to buy from a retail store (and there''s nothing wrong with that, you just have to be a bit more careful), for the safest route, ask to see only AGS000 stones.

If it were me, I''d try another shop, this one has lost all credibility with me, after trying to take away your return policy. A good jeweler just wouldn''t do that, they should have no need to.


If you decide to look online, we''d be more than happy to help you.
 

prberg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
7
Hi all...

well thanks again for all your great info. Update:
After the great advice here I returned the original diamond (thank goodness I didn''t let them get rid of the return policy) since it was deep and not as brilliant as it could be. Since I had a pretty negative feeling about the store I had gone to, I took my money elsewhere.

Possibly against the advice of some nice folks here.. I bought from Tiffany''s. The ring was just so nice and the salesperson was equally great. The store just gave me a nice feeling and I was truly excited and happy about the purchase (not about paying so much money but oh well). I know I paid a premium but it''s a once in a lifetime thing right? I really like the ring and think she will too.

I had a quick insurance/appraisal question if you guys could help. I just got my ring appraised at an independent GIA certified appraiser (Patrick Davis here in LA). He said the stone was a good stone and represented fairly on the Tiffany cert. (the numbers are pretty good.. but of course better diamonds can be found (table_56, depth_61.4, crown_35, pavilion_43). He could barely find any inclusions... which made me happy that the stone was so clear. Based on the wholesale value and with the various markups added I still paid ALOT for this ring. But again I knew what I was doing when I walked into the store. What should I ask him to appraise it for? He came up with a figure that was a little below what I paid. Should I ask him to match what I paid? Do I need to worry about padding the figure a little in case of inflation?

well thanks so much guys! I''ll post more pictures if anyone is interested.

-Peter B

ringpb273.jpg
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
13,324
Date: 3/8/2007 6:03:20 PM
Author: prberg
Hi all...

well thanks again for all your great info. Update:
After the great advice here I returned the original diamond (thank goodness I didn't let them get rid of the return policy) since it was deep and not as brilliant as it could be. Since I had a pretty negative feeling about the store I had gone to, I took my money elsewhere.

Possibly against the advice of some nice folks here.. I bought from Tiffany's. The ring was just so nice and the salesperson was equally great. The store just gave me a nice feeling and I was truly excited and happy about the purchase (not about paying so much money but oh well). I know I paid a premium but it's a once in a lifetime thing right? I really like the ring and think she will too.

I had a quick insurance/appraisal question if you guys could help. I just got my ring appraised at an independent GIA certified appraiser (Patrick Davis here in LA). He said the stone was a good stone and represented fairly on the Tiffany cert. (the numbers are pretty good.. but of course better diamonds can be found (table_56, depth_61.4, crown_35, pavilion_43). He could barely find any inclusions... which made me happy that the stone was so clear. Based on the wholesale value and with the various markups added I still paid ALOT for this ring. But again I knew what I was doing when I walked into the store. What should I ask him to appraise it for? He came up with a figure that was a little below what I paid. Should I ask him to match what I paid? Do I need to worry about padding the figure a little in case of inflation?

well thanks so much guys! I'll post more pictures if anyone is interested.

-Peter B
If your appraisal was for retail replacement, it should be appraised at whatever you paid for it. You can't get a brand new Tiffany ring anywhere other than Tiffany, at whatever their prices are.

It looks beautiful.
 

Modified Brilliant

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
1,481
Date: 3/8/2007 6:03:20 PM
Author: prberg
Hi all...

well thanks again for all your great info. Update:
After the great advice here I returned the original diamond (thank goodness I didn''t let them get rid of the return policy) since it was deep and not as brilliant as it could be. Since I had a pretty negative feeling about the store I had gone to, I took my money elsewhere.

Possibly against the advice of some nice folks here.. I bought from Tiffany''s. The ring was just so nice and the salesperson was equally great. The store just gave me a nice feeling and I was truly excited and happy about the purchase (not about paying so much money but oh well). I know I paid a premium but it''s a once in a lifetime thing right? I really like the ring and think she will too.

I had a quick insurance/appraisal question if you guys could help. I just got my ring appraised at an independent GIA certified appraiser (Patrick Davis here in LA). He said the stone was a good stone and represented fairly on the Tiffany cert. (the numbers are pretty good.. but of course better diamonds can be found (table_56, depth_61.4, crown_35, pavilion_43). He could barely find any inclusions... which made me happy that the stone was so clear. Based on the wholesale value and with the various markups added I still paid ALOT for this ring. But again I knew what I was doing when I walked into the store. What should I ask him to appraise it for? He came up with a figure that was a little below what I paid. Should I ask him to match what I paid? Do I need to worry about padding the figure a little in case of inflation?

well thanks so much guys! I''ll post more pictures if anyone is interested.

-Peter B
Congratulations on your recent purchase! Just an FYI for the PS community. A graduate of GIA''s graduate gemologist program is known as a "Graduate Gemologist" or "G.G."
GIA does not certify anyone or anything. The word "certified" is used frequently in the trade, so how would a consumer know?

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 

prberg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
7
Thanks for clarifying Jeff. You are right... Patrick is a independent appraiser who is also a Graduate Gemologist from GIA.

So any opinions on the insurance/appraisal issue? Get the appraisal to match my purchase price... or is under ok too. I guess like Julie says.. if I want to replace it later I will need to pay the same amount again (or maybe even more depending on the price of diamonds and platinum).

-Peter B
 

kev_800

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Messages
122
Well you''ll want to get an appraisal for the purchase price at the minimum, so that you have the paperwork to back up any loss claimed under a jewelery insurance policy. Because a tiffany ring is arguably only replacable by another tiffany ring, there is no point in getting an appraisal that appraises the ring for much more than its worth since your insurer will be able to go to tiffany and get an almost identical ring to satisfy the requirements under the policy.... plus we all know that tiffany charges a premium for their rings.

Do a search on this forum for insurance, you''ll come up with a lot of good hits. For you I think you won''t need a stated value policy (which charge higher premiums) because you bought a Tiffany ring, its really only replaceable by another Tiffany piece. That means so long as your appraisal is at or slightly above market price for your ring you should be safe in terms of getting insurance for it. Just be sure to check your insurance every few years to make sure that the amount of coverage is appropriate to your ring.

I''m really tired tonight, I hope that made sense.
 

kev_800

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2007
Messages
122
By the way... I am sure you ended up with a beautiful ring, its pretty hard to end up with a bad ring from Tiffany''s....in fact I don''t think I''ve ever seen a bad one :)
 
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