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Is fire better in super ideal diamonds?

bestcoder

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2024
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8
Hi, everyone.

I was wondering whether fire (my favorite diamond property by faaaaaar) is better in super ideal diamonds than in regular GIA 3ex diamonds
or
super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance and regular GIA 3ex diamonds are better when it comes to fire.

I heard somewhere that fancy cut diamomds have more fire than round diamonds
but please let's limit our discussion within round diamonds.

I'm asking because
in my personal experiences
the best diamond fire I have ever witnessed came from Tiffany diamonds, which were not super ideal diamonds.
It was four years ago and I wonder if Tiffany now cuts their diamonds in super ideal ways.
I hope they don't cos it seems to me that super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance.
I mean, one of the best known super ideal diamond companies' name is """WHITE""" flash, ha ha.

The following is how Brian Gavin diamonds describes their diamonds in one of their blog posts.
"Just imagine being able to see all those broad-spectrum flashes of light reflecting off the facets of your Black by Brian Gavin diamond and seeing them fly off into the room where they will reflect off of every other surface they can find."
It sounds like they focus on fire more than Whiteflash does, but the BGD diamonds I bought are still less impressive than the aforementioned Tiffany diamonds when it comes to fire.

What do you guys think?
Please share your opinions.
Thank you in advance.
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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27,487
Hi, everyone.

I was wondering whether fire (my favorite diamond property by faaaaaar) is better in super ideal diamonds than in regular GIA 3ex diamonds
or
super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance and regular GIA 3ex diamonds are better when it comes to fire.
GIA 3EX is a broad range. Some good, some not so good. Bottom like is it depends on the cut of the GIA stone. Dont
forget that when you hit high on one thing (like fire), it may be at the cost of something else (brilliance, brightness...etc).

In general, Super Ideals are TICs (tolkowsy Ideal Cuts) and provide a beautiful balance of the
things we look for in a stone. Super Ideals are usually H&A so are cut tighter than a typical GIA 3EX. You
cant compare the broad category GIA 3EX against Super Ideals. It needs to be a specific GIA 3EX stone.

I heard somewhere that fancy cut diamomds have more fire than round diamonds
but please let's limit our discussion within round diamonds.
False, (in general) well-cut round brilliants will have the best light return.
I'm asking because
in my personal experiences
the best diamond fire I have ever witnessed came from Tiffany diamonds, which were not super ideal diamonds.
It was four years ago and I wonder if Tiffany now cuts their diamonds in super ideal ways.
I hope they don't cos it seems to me that super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance.
I mean, one of the best known super ideal diamond companies' name is """WHITE""" flash, ha ha.
Where did you see the Tiffany diamond? Was it in the showroom by any chance or dealers/vendors lighting?
The following is how Brian Gavin diamonds describes their diamonds in one of their blog posts.
"Just imagine being able to see all those broad-spectrum flashes of light reflecting off the facets of your Black by Brian Gavin diamond and seeing them fly off into the room where they will reflect off of every other surface they can find."
It sounds like they focus on fire more than Whiteflash does, but the BGD diamonds I bought are still less impressive than the aforementioned Tiffany diamonds when it comes to fire.

What do you guys think?
Please share your opinions.
Thank you in advance.

I cant speak to Tiffany stones. I've never seen one. I'm sure some others can comment on them in particular.

Maybe your eyes prefer a FIC (Firey Ideal Cut). Usually higher crown, smaller table I believe.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Brian Gavin diamonds do not focus more on fire than Whiteflash. Brian Gavin was with Whiteflash for years before he branched out on his own. Super ideal cuts do focus on a balance of brilliance and fire - not on brilliance alone. Unless you were comparing a super ideal cut to a Tiffany stone in a Tiffany store, there is no way to say that one was better than the other. Tiffany diamonds are generally not cut to the tight parameters of super ideal cuts, nor do they claim their diamonds to be super ideal cut diamonds. Not sure where your ideas of brilliance vs. fire are coming from, but I would respectfully disagree with most of your points.
 

bestcoder

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2024
Messages
8
Thank you @tyty333 and @MissGotRocks for your replies.

Let me elaborate a bit more.

The reason I said "BGD seems to focus on fire more than WF does" was because, well.
I know Brian used to work at WF.
But after he branched out on his own,
he developed a new line called Black by Brian Gavin
and the excerpt I quoted was from their blog post on their Black line
and it says "broad spectrum flashes".
Broad spectrum flashes VS White flash?!
That was why I thought maybe Brian is focusing on fire more in his Black line than WF does.

I read a Pricescope post on diamond fire and learned that it is possible that a person may not perceive diamond fire even when the diamond fire is not that weak.
When your pupils are dilated, for instance.
And I've long suspected that there may be something wrong with my eyes that makes me unable to perceive diamond fire.
I am not going to bore you with the details of the symptoms I have with my eyes
but there are quite a few.
But then again, it is not like I need glasses that only doctors can prescribe; I lead a normal life with glasses that you can buy anywhere.
So I am not sure how normal or abnormal my eyes are.
Considering the fact that I lead a normal life with glasses that you can buy anywhere and the fact that I rarely use eyedrops of whatever kind, and the fact that I go to an eye doctor only once every six months,
I'd say that my eyes are much more on the normal side than on the abnormal side.

And yet, it seems like I am unable to see diamond fire.
Several years ago, I saw incredible fire from my Tiffany diamond.
I didn't know super ideal diamonds back then and didn't know about lots of GIA 3ex stones being inferiorly cut.
So when I lost the Tiffany diamond, I bought a GIA 3ex diamond, from which I saw quite satisfactory fire.
I lost it again and I was without a diamond for a few years.
And when I finally bought a new diamond (GIA 3ex) I couldn't see much fire.
I sold it and tried another one but the result was the same.
I frantically searched the Internet for why
and learned about super ideal diamonds.
Hoping for incredible diamond fire again, I bought a super ideal diamond from Brian Gavin Diamonds but the result was not very different.
I kept buying diamonds from BGD and Whiteflash because I was resigned to the fact (?) that I was unable to see diamond fire.
And also because I found it hard to buy non-super ideal diamonds after learning how important cut is to the diamond beauty.

I posted this question because
even though I am somewhat resigned to the fact (?) that I am unable to see diamond fire,
I can't shake the feeling that maybe it is not my eyes, or, maybe there is something more.
For instance,
in the following Whiteflash post about moissanite vs diamond
Ms.Tiffany Moore (the writer) talks about how white the diamond sparkle is compared to the rainbow colors of moissanite.
It made me wonder "I know for a fact that diamonds can be very rainbow-like. I saw it myself. Why is she saying things like 'white sparkle of a diamond' or 'white brillinace enhanced by just the right amount of fire'? Is that how Whiteflash diamonds are designed? Is that why the name of the company WHITE flash? Is that why I can't see much fire from super ideal diamonds from Whiteflash (and BGD)?"
And on the fire thread here on Pricescope,
there was a member who said that she loved how random fire from her old cut diamond was compared to the fire from her WF diamond.
Which made me think I wasn't the only one who thought (super ideal) WF diamonds were not the best when it came to diamond fire.
And maybe I should just buy regular GIA 3ex diamonds if white brilliace is not something I want particularly.

Thanks for reading.

Frustrated in East Asia
 
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Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Fire is lighting dependent.
The range of lighting conditions that any MRB shows fire is narrow compared to some fancies or an OEC.
Comparing fire between diamonds in different lighting will not give accurate results.
Tiffany spends a huge amount of money on lighting to make their diamonds pop in store.
 

MissGotRocks

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@Karl_K is absolutely correct. Without correct lighting, there won’t be fire. That is not to say that a super ideal cut diamond won’t produce fire - it certainly will!
Check out this thread with tons of pictures of diamond fire:
 

bestcoder

Rough_Rock
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Jan 1, 2024
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8
Tiffany spends a huge amount of money on lighting to make their diamonds pop in store.

As do all the other jewelers with a 3D store.

I didn’t only see the Tiffany diamond in one of their stores.
The stone was mine in case you’re mentioning the lighting of Tiffany stores because you thought I only saw it in their store.
 
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DejaWiz

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Rfisher

Ideal_Rock
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Plenty of well versed experienced members have already chimed in - perhaps my not so experienced self can help

And yet, it seems like I am unable to see diamond fire.
Several years ago, I saw incredible fire from my Tiffany diamond.
If your eyesight is not waxing and waning - then it’s the differences between the diamonds, not ‘you’.

I didn't know super ideal diamonds back then and didn't know about lots of GIA 3ex stones being inferiorly cut.
Yes as already been stated above, GIAXXX parameters are wider than super ideal parameters

So when I lost the Tiffany diamond, I bought a GIA 3ex diamond, from which I saw quite satisfactory fire.
I lost it again and I was without a diamond for a few years.
And when I finally bought a new diamond (GIA 3ex) I couldn't see much fire.
I sold it and tried another one but the result was the same.
I frantically searched the Internet for why
and learned about super ideal diamonds.
Hoping for incredible diamond fire again, I bought a super ideal diamond from Brian Gavin Diamonds but the result was not very different.
I kept buying diamonds from BGD and Whiteflash because I was resigned to the fact (?) that I was unable to see diamond fire.
And also because I found it hard to buy non-super ideal diamonds after learning how important cut is to the diamond beauty.

I posted this question because
even though I am somewhat resigned to the fact (?) that I am unable to see diamond fire,
I can't shake the feeling that maybe it is not my eyes, or, maybe there is something more.
Yes, it’s the subtle differences in the cut, as you’ve already noted.
It’s also (imo) you are writing about other people’s testimonials. It’s their opinions and how they write those opinions/ preferences and trying to use their words as your guide as how you define it - might be difficult to parallel the two to jive to your own experience/feeling/perception/preferences.


this video is a comparison done through multiple lightings.
I can see where the GIAXXX could be considered to have ‘more’ fire in one of the specific lighting scenarios. But I wouldn’t equate that ‘more’ to equal ‘better’, in my opinion. Or more specifically rather than ‘better’, let’s say visually appealing. Someone might, tho.
And I know that video vs real life scenario proportions on my hand might have me feel differently on what I like ‘better’. Someone else may as well.

There’s enough of posters who choose performance outside of super ideal parameters as their preference for modern round - you wouldn’t be unique or odd or wrong. People vary. But I think it’s safe to say that would be for a specific singular stone - not GIAXXX as a group.

If you don’t have access to the specific GIAXXX stone number or actual report you used to own (purchase or appraisal paperwork?-vendor maybe retain that info?) to see the grading report specifics - finding and replicating what you used to have will be much harder to do.

-
You are asking some of your questions to be answered as facts when I think it boils down to preference, or at least a broader answer of ‘it depends’ on additional criteria that’s unknown/ungiven.

Best wishes on your journey
 
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molecule

Brilliant_Rock
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Apr 2, 2018
Messages
707
I would love to have a super ideal vendor market an increased fire diamond. I wonder if a Sarin scan would be sufficient for discrimination high performers for increased fire
 

headlight

Ideal_Rock
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3,329
I would say, based on personally owning ACAs, BGDs, and a GIA 3X that fire is fire… it’s just how much of it and how even it is throughout the stone…. And obviously a super ideal just does it better lol than a 3X!
Tiffany’s lighting is off the charts so I can see why you thought it was the most beautiful diamond.
 

chamois

Brilliant_Rock
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Messages
587
I usually find it best to look for round diamonds with a smaller table width and taller crown height.
Example:

I agree. This is a great example. I see it was sold recently, I hope you purchased it.
 

DejaWiz

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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I agree. This is a great example. I see it was sold recently, I hope you purchased it.

Nope, wasn't me so not the proud owner of this one.
 

0515vision

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Among ACAs, at a certain point, is an increased fire, simply dependent on lighting? That is to say, you can only optimize for it to a certain extent?
 

Kya

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
296
Purchasing a diamond sight-unseen , the super ideals will be definitely be the foolproof option if you want fire. GIA 3X often are nice looking cuts but do not have the angles for optimal performance. I personally have upgraded a pair of GIA 3x studs to super ideal cuts and the sparkle is incomparable.

That said , there are other things that can help a diamond make the cut for GIA excellent cut - the overall look of the diamond, the size appearance per carat weight, the faceting design . So if what you really care about is fire and not necessarily all of the above, it’s possible to find a super fiery stone that isn’t even an excellent cut, and that can save you a lot of money. You would have to see that in person though. The most fiery diamond I have seen belongs to a friend of mine. It is actually just a ‘good cut’. I personally do not love the faceting design but as far as fire , I never seen anything like it under all lighting circumstances.

As far as Brian Gavin versus Whiteflash, I don’t think that there is what to read between the lines as far as their sales pitches. They can’t say the exact same thing of course :)

Honestly, everything looks incredible at the Tiffany store due to the lighting there. You can never count on just what you see in any jewelry store, because the lighting is always incredible there - varying real life settings will give a more realistic idea of performance.
 

bestcoder

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2024
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Thank you @Kya for your reply.
I agree with what you said; I've long suspected that super ideal cut is not necessarily the best cut for diamond fire.
And I'm not alone in thinking that.
The following is what a Pricescope member said about fire from a super ideal diamond not being the best.
IMG_0374.jpg

I don't know why people are mentioning the lighting of Tiffany stores, though.
The Tiffany stone with the most incredible fire was mine; I took it everywhere with me.
 
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MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Many diamonds will produce fire. Which is best may be subject to opinion. A super ideal cut diamond will produce fire - I have owned nine of them to date and none have disappointed in that area.
As far as Tiffany diamonds go, there have been many variations in crown/pavilion angles in their diamonds that we have seen here through the years. They have been selling diamonds for a long time. It would be impossible to say that ALL Tiffany diamonds produce the best fire. If you had one that you felt was a top performer, you might be inclined to go try on more of their diamonds. The lighting in their stores is superb for making diamonds perform. That is all that is being said. If your Tiffany diamond performed to your satisfaction in lots of environments - not just in their store - then you had a good diamond for yourself. Their prices are very high comparatively speaking though. You asked for opinions and thoughts and folks have shared theirs with you.
 

Dreamer_D

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We keep harping on about the lighting in the Tiffany store @bestcoder because there is nothing special about Tiffany diamonds that should cause those diamonds as a class to have the best fire. The acceptable cut parameters at Tiffany are broad (in comparison to some other brands). And fire is very strongly affected by lighting and cleanliness... this latter is possibly the reason for the differences you have noticed.

Old cuts do produce a lot of fire as Cachette noted in the post you shared. There are many fans of old cuts here on the boards, myself included. They have other limitations though. For example they might not be as bright all the time and they tend to have cut "flaws" that ideals do not have, like poor symmetry, which affect light play. Those of us who love old cuts love their uniqueness, not their perfection.

As @Karl_K always says, diamond appearance is affected by lighting, lighting, lighting.... and cut.
 

diamonds27

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
69
Hi, everyone.

I was wondering whether fire (my favorite diamond property by faaaaaar) is better in super ideal diamonds than in regular GIA 3ex diamonds
or
super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance and regular GIA 3ex diamonds are better when it comes to fire.

I heard somewhere that fancy cut diamomds have more fire than round diamonds
but please let's limit our discussion within round diamonds.

I'm asking because
in my personal experiences
the best diamond fire I have ever witnessed came from Tiffany diamonds, which were not super ideal diamonds.
It was four years ago and I wonder if Tiffany now cuts their diamonds in super ideal ways.
I hope they don't cos it seems to me that super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance.
I mean, one of the best known super ideal diamond companies' name is """WHITE""" flash, ha ha.

The following is how Brian Gavin diamonds describes their diamonds in one of their blog posts.
"Just imagine being able to see all those broad-spectrum flashes of light reflecting off the facets of your Black by Brian Gavin diamond and seeing them fly off into the room where they will reflect off of every other surface they can find."
It sounds like they focus on fire more than Whiteflash does, but the BGD diamonds I bought are still less impressive than the aforementioned Tiffany diamonds when it comes to fire.

What do you guys think?
Please share your opinions.
Thank you in advance.

Hey, you should check out this new site, www.yourdiamondguys.com. It’s got this cool AI that scans for inclusions and weeds out the bad ones, so you only see the best diamonds with nice imperfections. Plus, there’s tons of info on there to help you out.
 

bestcoder

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2024
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Please help me.

IMG_4039.jpeg
IMG_4040.jpeg


It is an IGI diamond so the cut grade of excellent is the second best grade cos "ideal" is the best IGI cut grade; when it comes to polish and symmetry, excellent is the best IGI grade and very good is the second best.

Will this stone show me incredible fire thanks to its small table and high crown even though it is somewhat haphazardly cut overall?
Fire is the only thing I care about.

Please help.
Thank you in advance.
 

lulu_ma

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
4,306
Please help me.

IMG_4039.jpeg
IMG_4040.jpeg


It is an IGI diamond so the cut grade of excellent is the second best grade cos "ideal" is the best IGI cut grade; when it comes to polish and symmetry, excellent is the best IGI grade and very good is the second best.

Will this stone show me incredible fire thanks to its small table and high crown even though it is somewhat haphazardly cut overall?
Fire is the only thing I care about.

Please help.
Thank you in advance.
IGI *may* be softer on color grading so the stone will seem like a deal versus a GIA stone. However, you may be paying a higher price for a more tinted diamond. It's better to stick with GIA for natural diamonds.
 

bestcoder

Rough_Rock
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IGI *may* be softer on color grading

That is what I learned from Beyond4cs.com but PS seems to recommend IGI as one of the most reliable labs?
And I saw a documentary on blood diamonds just yesterday (it was so horrible to watch Sierra Leone people with severed limbs) and I am now open to buying lab diamonds.
 

lulu_ma

Ideal_Rock
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That is what I learned from Beyond4cs.com but PS seems to recommend IGI as one of the most reliable labs?
And I saw a documentary on blood diamonds just yesterday (it was so horrible to watch Sierra Leone people with severed limbs) and I am now open to buying lab diamonds.

If you want a lab diamond you probably want to start a thread on the Lab Grown forum. IGI seems like the main source of certs for labs diamonds-possibly because they charge less.

If you really want a fiery diamond, you should consider an antique diamond. These are also sustainable.
 

Dreamer_D

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The issue of ethical gemstone mining is complex, as is the case for most resources we consume (for example look up what is happening in Congo right now to mine minerals for cell phone batteries). There are accords like Kimberly that intend to address these issues in the natural diamond trade. There are also Canadian diamonds which might be better in terms of labour but are mined in the arctic raising issues of land conservation and treaty rights. I like antique diamonds for some of these reasons, because at least they are not the product of labour an human rights abuses within the past 100 years — though of course when they were mined it is a very different story. But lab diamonds are also produced with labour that may not be ethical (low pay, potential labour abuses) and it uses a lot of fossil fuels and energy. I don’t think the answer to your concerns is easily addressed with lab vs natural. The adage that there is no truly ethical consumption under capitalism is true, and green washing is a thing.

Just my 2c. If you want a lab diamond there is a dedicated forum for that.
 

bestcoder

Rough_Rock
Joined
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IMG_4039.jpeg

IMG_4040.jpeg

Please focus on the proportions and cut quality of this diamond and its potential for great fire.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
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IMG_4039.jpeg

IMG_4040.jpeg

Please focus on the proportions and cut quality of this diamond and its potential for great fire.

I can’t run it through the HCA because you didn’t provide all info. It is not a super ideal cut stone though. I would never say that it would produce more fire than a super ideal cut diamond. Fire can’t really be quantified by numbers.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I can’t run it through the HCA because you didn’t provide all info. It is not a super ideal cut stone though. I would never say that it would produce more fire than a super ideal cut diamond. Fire can’t really be quantified by numbers.

No, it's not a super ideal and won't produce more fire than one. 100% agree
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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IMG_4039.jpeg

IMG_4040.jpeg

Please focus on the proportions and cut quality of this diamond and its potential for great fire.

not enough data.. post a spin video.

With the right minor facets and cut quality it could have the potential to show fire more across a wide range of lighting.
On the other hand the spread sux so it will look small for its weight.

If fire is most important to you and you want a round then find a well cut OEC.
 
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