Is an HCA of 6 always bad?

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Billy
Do you notice any problem with leakage using your eyes without any tools?
What kind of light scope are you using?

 

[Billy Mays]

David, I feel embarrassed but I either can't see it or don't know how to see it.

I purchased a light scope from ideal-scope.com. It's a kit so I have this small flat light and then a small red cone that I hold over it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

No need at all to feel embarrassed!
Part of what we are discussing here is "fine points"
There are people who want to buy a "perfect" cut- and are wiling to pay extra for it. I'm in the diamond business, There is ample motivation for me to try to get people to buy the most expensive thing possible, if that was my goal- it is not. I think what gets lost in some of some of these discussions, is that not everyone wants to pay extra for a perfect cut.
We need to where you fall in this

 

[Dreamer_D]

David, I feel embarrassed but I either can't see it or don't know how to see it.

Why be embarassed?

I have owned many many many diamonds, AGS0 H&As with perfect options through to wonky old cuts with poor optics. I have very well trained eyes to see minute differences in optical performance and I am very picky. When I started on PS I wanted that plumb perfect diamond *by the numbers*. But after more expience I have learned that some of the minute details we talk about here are not visible. Many of the details ARE visible. But some are not. Your stone may not show leakage with stereoscopic vision except in some very certain lighting and if you know what to look for. Does that matter to you? Do you want to train your eyes to see it? We cannot anser those questions.

If you have the diamond in hand visit a store selling Hearts On Fire stones or AGS0 ideal cut diamonds and compare in person side by side. See what you think then. Educate your eyes and then make your own decision, weighing all the factors.

 

[Dreamer_D]

No need at all to feel embarrassed!
Part of what we are discussing here is "fine points"
There are people who want to buy a "perfect" cut- and are wiling to pay extra for it. I'm in the diamond business, There is ample motivation for me to try to get people to buy the most expensive thing possible, if that was my goal- it is not. I think what gets lost in some of some of these discussions, is that not everyone wants to pay extra for a perfect cut.
We need to where you fall in this

Not a critique of you, David, but rather a point of education and clarification -- diamond dealers likely are motivated to make the biggest profit, and that might not mean selling consumers the most expensive diamond in an absolute sense

Consumers, you cannot judge a dealer's motivation for profit or your best interests by the absolute price of the diamond he or she is selling you.

 

[Rockdiamond]

No need at all to feel embarrassed!
Part of what we are discussing here is "fine points"
There are people who want to buy a "perfect" cut- and are wiling to pay extra for it. I'm in the diamond business, There is ample motivation for me to try to get people to buy the most expensive thing possible, if that was my goal- it is not. I think what gets lost in some of some of these discussions, is that not everyone wants to pay extra for a perfect cut.
We need to where you fall in this

Not a critique of you, David, but rather a point of education and clarification -- diamond dealers likely are motivated to make the biggest profit, and that might not mean selling consumers the most expensive diamond in an absolute sense

Consumers, you cannot judge a dealer's motivation for profit or your best interests by the absolute price of the diamond he or she is selling you.

That is an AWESOME point DD!
We have been involved in literally thousands of discussion about EGL graded stones- and how consumers who think they are getting a bargain are actually getting ripped off- based on the increased margin the dealer can charge for misgraded diamonds.

I honestly feel that the majority of cases of triple EX diamonds that score lower on HCA is a different matter.
If a dealer is going to compete on GIA triple EX diamonds, and it sounds like Billy is going to make sure his dealer does- than we have a case of a given margin being applied to two diamonds.
Diamond 1 is the GIA triple EX scoring 6 on HCA- sold at cost plus x%
Diamond 2 is a super ideal which has a higher cost, now we add the same % profit.
This is how the bulk of the dealers who are selling these stones honestly do it.
In either case, the profit margin on these stones is not nearly as large as jewelry stores used to make 20 years ago.
THE GIA cut grade- and HCA- really have "leveled the playing field" a bit. It's easier for consumers to do a more accurate comparison.
Dealers don't discount stones that are "on the edge of GIA's EX cut grade"- rather, smart cutters find ways to cut stones a little bit better- and use the tools to prove why they should cost a bit more than "regular" triple EX stones.

But the point is- is it correct to educate people about what leakage is- and how to see it in an IS- yet not educate them about the real life ramifications?

 

[Billy Mays]

gallileo if I'm understanding you, would it be fair to say that a rock slightly below 2 will more often than not be much better quality than a rock at or slightly above 2 only because the cutter isn't "cutting corners" (excuse the pun) and trying to maximize the weight?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Billy, while that theoretically may be true, there are going to be good and bad stones at 2.0 cts and there will be good and bad stones at 1.9. So you always have to take each stone and evaluate individually. It would be silly to rule out 2 ct. stones for that reason, because we can show you plenty on here that are ideal, hearts and arrows cut. Sometimes you can save a little money or go up in specs by going down to the 1.8-1.9 range, though.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Galilleo - are you in the trade?
You're making statements that sound definitive- putting your opinion above GIA
What's your qualifications?

 

[yssie]

**edited by moderator. banned poster**

Who said that? Long lgf can mitigate "leakage" but it obviously won't result in the same type of light return as a stone w/ different proportions. Different facet sizes and configurations at different angles to each other..

 

[Rockdiamond]

Galilleo - are you in the trade?
You're making statements that sound definitive- putting your opinion above GIA
What's your qualifications?

**Banned poster's comments have been removed**

All due respect,but if the goal is education, your unqualified opinion, is nothing at all like GIA's in a discussion like this.
GIA graded the diamond EX cut grade. GIA declared the optics of this diamond sufficient to be graded EX cut grade. We can agree that there are differences between a super ideal cut and this diamond, however that does not make this a "defective" diamond.
Without proper frame of reference,your leakage representations are misleading because stereo vision will not perceive the diamond like that- this was made clear by Billy's experience.
Every diamond is cut ( polished) with consideration to yield.I do not see any statement from GIA regarding extra weight on this diamond- and even the HCA declares the stone has good spread. A diamond that has extra weight should look small for it's weight, no?
The term "cut for optics"- along with misleading simulated leakage images are just that- misleading,
It's not my intention to be argumentative- but you are making assumptions that are incorrect based on real life experience.

I'm sure we'd all like readers to have the benefit of a balanced discussion. Understanding g your qualifications to make these statements would allow this

 

[stone-cold11]

gallileo if I'm understanding you, would it be fair to say that a rock slightly below 2 will more often than not be much better quality than a rock at or slightly above 2 only because the cutter isn't "cutting corners" (excuse the pun) and trying to maximize the weight?

More often than not as there is a large jump in $/carat at the 2 carat mark, similar to other marks like the .5, 0.7, 0.9, 1.0, 1.5c mark.



So to make up for the lost in profit if the stone come up below these mark, there must be some other selling point for the stone such as optics, but sometimes it is just the largest the cutter can get from the rough, so it can still be junk.

 

[TitanCi]

Only when the 6 is over 2.

HAHA, what Kenny said!

But as others have stated, I'm going to re-state the obvious. Oh hell yes it's bad.

 

[TitanCi]

That really steep pavilion angle of 41.6 is mainly what's causing the bad score. I'd pass!

Yes, and that usually means a ring of leakage.

I think, though, that your specs and budget may not realistically work for an ideal cut stone. I think to go for G VS2 you'll be a little under 2 cts. and to go over 2 cts., you may need to go to H color or SI1 clarity.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9802/

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2696797.htm

I've seen the ring of death on a 41.2 PA, so I would assume this one may have it too. I passed on that great, icy XXX F stone!

 

[Karl_K]

A problem with a 41.6 pavilion is you get color entrapment so instead of it can "look one grade whiter with the best cuts" You get it can look one grade more color.
This is in addition to the dark zone caused by "leakage".

 

[Rockdiamond]

I've seen stones with 41.2% pav that looked amazing.
I did not notice any more color than in super ideal stones of the same color either.
Referring to a GIA EX cut grade stone as "defective" based on 41.2PA - or HCA alone- is completely inaccurate, prejudicial, and does exactly the opposite of informing consumers.
There's a difference between such a stone, and a super ideal scoring below 2 on HCA, on that we can agree. But a fair percentage of the difference is going to come down to taste- which is likely why such stones are included in GIA's X cut grade.
I don't ever recall seeing such a stone that had an obvious defect in cut. I can also see the beauty in such stones- as well as super idea diamonds.
Titan, is the stone you're referring to online- or photographed so we can see what you're referring to?
Can you find other photographed tripe EX GIA graded diamonds demonstrating this?

 

[Karl_K]

41.2 degree pavilion is a whole different story than 41.6.
Entrapment kicks in around 41.4 and gets bad around 41.6 given the gia rounding there is a high chance that a diamond that is 41.6 GIA is going to have some color entrapment.