Is 950 Palladium considered

[february2003bride]

Is 950 Palladium considered cheap? (that's the correct thread title. For some reason the title got cut off)

I need to have my 950 palladium setting sized up a bit. It's a wide setting and with summer here I'm going to pop my knuckle out trying to pry my ring off!

I called several jewelers in my area and found exactly TWO who work with palladium; Quest Jewelers (whom I'm going to use to size the ring up) who said they have been working with palladium 2 years now and Bella Diamonds Inc, who said their benchmen are newly trained to work on palladium.

What surprised me was the one reaction I had from a jeweler. He said that his store didn't work with palladium because it is considered cheap in the jewelry industry. That the choices are gold and preferrably platinum for fine jewelry.

How true is that statement? For what it's worth, I'm very happy with my palladium ring and am contemplating other projects using palladium.

Thank you!

 

[Imdanny]

Considered "cheap"? How silly. That''s really ridiculous. Palladium is a precious medal.

As to the price, most recently I think I saw on eweddingbands.com that they increased the prices (of course) of their palladium rings, and they are slightly more expensive than 18kt gold.

I don''t know if this translates into how expensive it is to work with. Maybe someone in the industry knows?

 

[choro72]

Ha! Sounds to me that the jeweler is making a lame excuse for his incapability + inexperience in working with palladium.

 

[february2003bride]

Date: 6/20/2008 3:38:51 AM
Author: Imdanny
Considered ''cheap''? How silly. That''s really ridiculous. Palladium is a precious medal.

As to the price, most recently I think I saw on eweddingbands.com that they increased the prices (of course) of their palladium rings, and they are slightly more expensive than 18kt gold.

I don''t know if this translates into how expensive it is to work with. Maybe someone in the industry knows?

Thanks Imdanny! Palladium is now more expensive than whitegold. I asked WF for a quote on a palladium x-prong solitare and it''s slightly more than 18Kwhitegold, but still hundreds of dollars cheaper than platinum.

 

[february2003bride]

Date: 6/20/2008 3:51:43 AM
Author: choro72
Ha! Sounds to me that the jeweler is making a lame excuse for his incapability + inexperience in working with palladium.

That''s what I was wondering too. But a comment like that, it has made me stop and think, is that how palladium is viewed?

 

[John P]

Date: 6/20/2008 8:51:56 AM
Author: february2003bride

That's what I was wondering too. But a comment like that, it has made me stop and think, is that how palladium is viewed?

Hi feb,

I was recently turning this decision over in my mind when deciding on my own wedding ring. As a trade member I recognize the long-standing supremacy of platinum but I like palladium too. Especially with prices as they are; it’s a beautiful, practical option.

My ring was designed and crafted by an artisan with the award portfolio and skills to match practically anyone (I would gladly name him, but he prefers to remain anonymous here). After the design was finished I posed the platinum-palladium question to him and received an answer I'll always value:

“I will tell you all I know from my experience, and trust that you can handle all the facts.

In absolute terms, Platinum is the most truly 'noble' metal for use in jewelry, period. End of discussion. But wait, when one has a budget that's not the whole story. It becomes more of a choice between emotion/prestige and reason. It is, in my opinion, quite philosophical. It is the difference between acknowledging what is 'the best/finest,' and being able, willing or compelled to spend money accordingly.

Gold is yellow by nature, thus 'white gold' is an oxymoron… The only 'true white' precious metal alloys are, in my opinion, Sterling Silver and Platinum/Iridium. Then there are the ones that are 'white' based on the fact that they have no tint of yellow, but actually they are really shades of gray next to the 'true whites.'

950 Platinum/Ruthenium is the densest, hardest, most durable and most noble platinum alloy, the alloy of choice for Tiffany&Co. It is most expensive and most difficult to cast.

950 Palladium is superior to any gold alloy for stone-setting. It looks like 950Pt/Ru, it is workable like 900Pt/Ir, it feels like silver, it is lighter than gold, it is less expensive than gold, it is purer than standard gold alloys (hypo-allergenic) it will not tarnish with age and it is as difficult to cast as 950Pt/Ru.

I have worked with platinum for a very long time. I have worked with palladium for less time but I like its qualities very much. I don’t think palladium is a fad. It is here to stay and will become established as valid alternative to platinum jewelry; your stone will be safe and your ring will look beautiful. If budget/cost is taken out of the equation your choice will be determined by the statement you want to make about yourself...

I think Palladium shows that you are non-conformist, educated but sober, innovative and possibly trendy or fashionable. Platinum says you are a true connoisseur, only the finest will do for you, money is no issue, you show awareness and appreciation for items of high intrinsic value. If budget/cost is taken out of the equation the choice is deeply personal."

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 6/20/2008 3:51:43 AM
Author: choro72
Ha! Sounds to me that the jeweler is making a lame excuse for his incapability + inexperience in working with palladium.

Agreed. It isn't cheap, but there is a prejudice against it from many jewelers. I think because it IS cheaper than platinum and often they would prefer to sell you platinum...


John: GREAT discussion. I totally agree with your designer.

I have both platinum and palladium and I like both for different reasons.

 

[Diamond*Dana]

Isn''t Palladium in the Platinum family? I would not consider it cheap at all!

 

[jewelerman]

considered cheap in the jewelry industry. That the choices are gold and preferrably platinum for fine jewelry.

The jeweler was most likley untrained in working with the metal but he also proved that he should not be talking with the public ...he is untrained in customer service and as a public relations agent for his company.He just lost his company your future business by disrespecting your jewelry and giving you incorrect information... sending you to the compition.

 

[Maisie]

Excellent post John!

 

[jewelerman]

JOHN,
great post!

 

[anne_h]

Thanks Feb2003 for raising this topic, and John for that insightful message.

I would like to add... I recently purchased some diamond chandelier earrings that were sold to me as being platinum. However, when I had them appraised, they turned out to be palladium. I do not own any other palladium jewelry... so, I did some research on this forum and decided in the end I wasn''t all that bothered (aside from requesting a partial refund). I would *prefer* platinum of course, but they are not, and I still think they are pretty. I own a number of antique/estate pieces, and I know there have been historical periods where palladium was used for whatever reason. So in a way, I see it as being a normal thing and okay.

Also, as far as earrings go, palladium is sort of a benefit, because it''s a lighter metal, so the earrings are very light and comfortable to wear.

I am hoping they will not need repolishing (or if so, not soon). Sounds like it could be an issue to find a jeweler experienced with this metal.

But I agree... I am hearing more about palladium these days. Personally, I do not consider it a "cheap" or "junky" metal. In my mind, it''s at a similar perception level to 18k gold.

My two cents!

Anne

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 6/20/2008 3:51:43 AM
Author: choro72
Ha! Sounds to me that the jeweler is making a lame excuse for his incapability + inexperience in working with palladium.

I suspect it's either this reason above, OR he's trying to pitch for a more expensive platinum piece in the sale.

Palladium is in the platinum family, and it's difficult to cast as John mentioned. Because many folks aren't skilled in palladium, it's not as well known.

Of the pieces I've seen in palladium, they were more expensive than similar 18K white pieces but less expensive than platinum. It doesn't have to be replated the way white gold does, and I've been told it's more scratch resistant than platinum.

 

[ValGirl]

What I have seen so far from online research and talking to various jewelers is that the Palladium became popular due to the record highs of Platinum pricing and a demand for a pure white metal without plating. Jewelers told me that the working on it is very similar to Platinum which explains the Palladium is also in the Platinum family of metals.

Palladium is actually cheaper than 18K gold and much cheaper than platinum. You can actually see the daily market prices at this site a jeweler once told me about:

http://www.kitco.com/market

It''s a useful site to get an idea of the precious metal markets and costs.

It''s still a precious metal and it cost has been going up because of the increasing demand by the jewelry industry but mainly because of the auto makers trying to replace the platinum with palladium in the catalytic converters. (This was news to me, using platinum in cars'' mufflers...)

I guess the reason Palladium is cheaper than gold and platinum must have something to do with the rarity, cost of refining or equipment costs, labor, etc...

 

[John P]

Thanks for the comments - I am just the padawan messenger though; the craftsman is jedi.

Date: 6/20/2008 2:55:38 PM
Author: ValGirl

What I have seen so far from online research and talking to various jewelers is that the Palladium became popular due to the record highs of Platinum pricing and a demand for a pure white metal without plating. Jewelers told me that the working on it is very similar to Platinum which explains the Palladium is also in the Platinum family of metals.

Palladium was historically popular at another time too; during WWII when platinum was rationed for war-efforts.

http://www.kitco.com/market

It's a useful site to get an idea of the precious metal markets and costs...

...I guess the reason Palladium is cheaper than gold and platinum must have something to do with the rarity, cost of refining or equipment costs, labor, etc...

We've mentioned that “palladium is cheaper than gold" - and while true in the stock market it might confuse new shoppers, since 950 Palladium jewelry costs more than gold jewelry. This is because palladium & platinum both melt at much higher temperatures, requiring different equipment, different processes and different skill sets than goldsmithing; both casting and at the bench.

While on the topic, readers shouldn't confuse 950 Palladium with palladium white Gold.

> 950 Palladium is 95% palladium and 5% of another metal by weight.
> 18K palladium white Gold is 75% gold and 25% palladium.

Palladium white Gold is more workable than nickel wg (nicer for gemstone setting) so benchmen love it. It does not cause irritation on the skin either. However 18k palladium white Gold is typically grayer than rhodium-plated white Gold, platinum alloys or 950 palladium. For that reason some makers go ahead and rhodium plate their palladium wg pieces – just as they do nickel wg – to give them a 'whiter' appearance.

When the craftsmanship is top quality any of the ‘white’ alloys look great and show equally well, but for the extremely picky there are very subtle differences. Top-down…

> Rhodium plating used on WG is very white (rhodium is the whitest precious metal after silver).
> Platinum-iridium alloys are nearest.
> 950 Platinum-ruthenium & 950 Palladium (alloyed with ruthenium). Technically next in whiteness to Pt-Ir, most people would notice only if they were scrutinized side-by-side.
> 18K Palladium White Gold (75% gold, 25% palladium) can be notably grayer unless rhodium plated, in which case it shoots back to the top.

(photos in this journal article)

 

[LGK]

I have a 14K white gold & palladium ring I wore for about two years solid, every day. It held up beautifully! It is definitely tougher than just regular white gold; I had another ring I wore for the same amount of time that was the typical 14K alloy, and it was wayyyy more worn than the 14K/Palladium one. Plus the 14K palladium ring stayed super, super white. It looks a bit more like platinum than like rhodium plated white gold- just a smidge of grey. I wish more 14K white gold was made this way, I love it. The only jeweler I know who works with it is Juan Manuel of Van Graff in Mexico, which is where I got both rings.

I had heard from another jeweler that there are problems with the alloy of gold & palladium, specifically that palladium''s melting point is so high that the gold is overheated and burned by the time the palladium is melted properly, so you often get either a blotchy look and poor finish from unmelted palladium, or weak and pitted gold from overmelting. (I think I''m remembering that right!) However, neither of my rings has either issue, so perhaps it is a matter of skill levels involved.

Sorry to hear someone was making you worry about your palladium ring; personally I really like it, I think it is a great option for those who don''t love rhodium plating white gold regularly, or shelling out for platinum.

 

[Adylon]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty passionate about palladium so I was quite bothered when I read your post! I'm in the process of phasing out all 14K white gold, and will eventually will be phasing out all 18K white gold from my store, ESPECIALLY for bridal. Right now my bridal is about 40% platinum, 40% palladium, 15% 18K white gold and 5% 14K white gold. I never advise anyone to buy white gold for bridal because of all the abuse they take.

Pd is a fussy metal to work with like platinum, that many jewelers just can't be bothered to work with. Pd is certainly not cheap, the cost is usually in the 14K-18K price range, sometimes more.

Pt/Pd are both metals you want someone highly skilled to work with who will take their time and takes pride in what they do. It's easy to say "this is cheap or that is no good" when you don't have the skill to reproduce the same item.

For example we have a high end line of bridal jewelry that is 100% forged and made in Germany. It's not cast, and therefor is VERY dense and much more resistant to scratches with zero porosity. This designer only deals with high purity metals and generally frowns on white gold. So there are all kinds of quality levels for both platinum and palladium, and it's very dependent on a high level of skill. Don't let anyone tell you palladium is not a fine metal.

PS - Interesting bit of trivia ... Did you know palladium once cost more then platinum when there were short supplies on the metal? It's true. Pd is very undervalued and continues to appreciate quicker then most of the other precious metals.

Best,
Yosef

 

[kcoursolle]

I have a RHR in palladium and I purchased my husband''s wedding band in palladium. I don''t think they look *cheap* at all...and for that matter they were priced higher than white gold. They were definitely more affordable than platinum though and they look a lot like platinum. We are really happy with both the rings, so I wouldn''t worry about it!

 

[Adylon]

950 Platinum/Ruthenium is the densest, hardest, most durable and most noble platinum alloy, the alloy of choice for Tiffany&Co. It is most expensive and most difficult to cast.

Hi John, I used to think the same, 95Pt/5Ru was the hardest Pt alloy out there. But there is one harder. It's 95% Platinum, 5% Wolfram. Wolfram? What the heck is that you're going to say? I said the same thing, It's just Swedish/German for Tungsten. Then I remembered W on the periodic table of elements. Tungsten as you know is very strong and hard.

Anyhow 95Pt/5W is by far the hardest platinum alloy but is VERY hard to cast. That's why they forge all their rings. For someone who doesn't know what forging is... Imagine a solid chunk of platinum, and it's pounded into the shape of the ring you want to make. That process of work hardening right there makes it much more dense then something just poured into a mold and allowed to cool/harden. After it's forged, it's then machined using hard tools which work hardens it even more, then it's polished by hand. Something made in this fashion will be much more dense, heavy, and durable then any cast platinum alloy. It's also very bright white. It's really something that needs to be seen to be appreciated. When you look at it you just see pure metal, and you're not quite sure why it's so clean and smooth looking, but that's because the porosity is so very low well beyond anything the human eye can detect.

 

[elmo]

For higher-end jewelry I''m not convinced that budget is a valid reason to choose palladium over platinum. A substantial ladies ring will have maybe 5 grams of platinum, which is not much more than $300 worth of metal at $2000/oz. A basic ring from a good metalsmith costs several times that. I think you need a better reason than budget on a $2000+ ring to choose a different metal.

 

[Adylon]

Date: 6/20/2008 8:54:17 PM
Author: elmo
For higher-end jewelry I'm not convinced that budget is a valid reason to choose palladium over platinum. A substantial ladies ring will have maybe 5 grams of platinum, which is not much more than $300 worth of metal at $2000/oz. A basic ring from a good metalsmith costs several times that. I think you need a better reason than budget on a $2000+ ring to choose a different metal.

For a substantial ring you can usually take that 5 grams and triple it. 5 grams is only enough to make a thin matching pave band and that's about it. You have to remember, platinum is about 60% heavier then 14K white gold. One advantage Pd has is that it's roughly the same weight as 14K, so if you have 1oz of platinum and 1 oz of palladium, you can make say 16 rings in palladium but only 10 in platinum. And if platinum costs 4x as much as palladium per oz, that means it now costs about 6.5x as much when cast when comparing ring to ring just based on the cost of the metal.

I've attached a pic of a "substantial" ring in my opinion, it's 14.8 grams of platinum and the shank is not even all that wide.

 

[elmo]

Yosef, that''s not fair

but point taken about ''substantial''. I think I''ve been looking at Leon Mege pieces too much

. My wedding band doesn''t weigh that much.

 

[Adylon]

Woo Hoo I win j/k

Is Leon Mege hand fabricated? I wonder what alloy he and other hand fabricators of Pt use.

 

[february2003bride]

Thank you all so so much! I''ve learned more about palladium in just this thread than any previous searches I have done on it. I''m going to chalk the one jeweler''s comment as ignorance about Pd.

Thank you again!!

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

He said that his store didn''t work with palladium because it is considered cheap in the jewelry industry. That the choices are gold and preferrably platinum for fine jewelry.

That is total CRAP! I tried on a Ritani wedding set at Robbins Bros. that was made out of palladium and it was gorgeous. I also saw mens'' wedding bands out of palladium being sold at Bailey Banks and Biddle. That jeweler is covering up his inexperience like the other posters said. He also probably thinks that people should not buy diamonds on the Internet.

 

[elmo]

Date: 6/20/2008 9:42:31 PM
Author: Yosef
Is Leon Mege hand fabricated? I wonder what alloy he and other hand fabricators of Pt use.

The piece he did for us was fabricated but it's not a ring - I'm not sure if he fabricates or casts his bands. He uses Pt 950 with ruthenium.

For that *substantial* ring you posted, my point is the same - even if it's $900 for the metal, if someone's paying $4000 for the setting and especially with a carat+ colorless round, it's not going to matter so much whether the ring costs $4000 or $4700. Under a few thousand and you might think twice about it

.

But it also illustrates a very practical case where someone might prefer palladium. For a piece more substantial than that, many ladies might prefer less mass.

(Your piece also makes me think to ask whether palladium holds up as well for pave. What do you think?)

 

[John P]

Date: 6/20/2008 8:30:32 PM
Author: Yosef

950 Platinum/Ruthenium is the densest, hardest, most durable and most noble platinum alloy, the alloy of choice for Tiffany&Co. It is most expensive and most difficult to cast.

Hi John, I used to think the same, 95Pt/5Ru was the hardest Pt alloy out there. But there is one harder. It's 95% Platinum, 5% Wolfram. Wolfram? What the heck is that you're going to say? I said the same thing, It's just Swedish/German for Tungsten. Then I remembered W on the periodic table of elements. Tungsten as you know is very strong and hard.

Anyhow 95Pt/5W is by far the hardest platinum alloy but is VERY hard to cast. That's why they forge all their rings. For someone who doesn't know what forging is... Imagine a solid chunk of platinum, and it's pounded into the shape of the ring you want to make. That process of work hardening right there makes it much more dense then something just poured into a mold and allowed to cool/harden. After it's forged, it's then machined using hard tools which work hardens it even more, then it's polished by hand. Something made in this fashion will be much more dense, heavy, and durable then any cast platinum alloy. It's also very bright white. It's really something that needs to be seen to be appreciated. When you look at it you just see pure metal, and you're not quite sure why it's so clean and smooth looking, but that's because the porosity is so very low well beyond anything the human eye can detect.

Hi Yosef,

See the highlighted above. Platinum-Tungsten systems are not noble platinum family alloys (as I understand from my jedi master). Only platinum, palladium, iridium & ruthenium [plus osmium & rhodium] are in the platinum family of metals.

I know some specialty alloys (Pt-Gold and Pt-Tungsten among them) can be heat treated/aged to have twice the hardness, but they behave more like tool steel than precious metals.

Example: Platinum family alloys finish between 80-130 HV when cast.

You're right about Pt-Tungsten. It has great hardness - up to 300 HV or more (depending on the mix). As a comparison, stainless steel and titanium jewelry are 200-250 HV. You probably know that if desired a smith can cold-hammer Pt/Ir to 160 and Pt/Ru all the way up to 210, but this moves the jewelry away from the behavior of precious metal and more towards the behavior of steel/titanium.

We can expect new alloys on a regular basis; there are hundreds on the market and twists are being developed all the time. We love to try new things and see where they go. Chacun son goût. Some will come and go. Those which stand the test of time will stay.

 

[Adylon]

Hi John, what is the criteria used to describe noble platinum alloys and why is it significant? From what I understand noble just means non-reactive. I don''t think this alloy is reactive, tarnishes, etc. Thanks for the comparisons I didn''t know how they stacked up in hardness vs. ss/ti, that''s pretty interesting.

I know exactly what you''re saying though, the harder something is the more it behaves like a ceramic and less like a metal... another words it gets more brittle, is more prone to chipping, cracking, etc.... kind of like a diamond actually... rather then getting dented up and scratched and behaving like you would expect a metal to behave, this is the trade off with hardness.. I have a hard time believing though these rings would crack from regular wear and tear though, especially given the fact they''re so beefy.


Elmo, if a ring costs $900 to make in palladium and $1800 to make in platinum, the markup will probably be the same percentage wise.... so even if the metal increases cost by $900, the markup will be increased proportionally if you know what I mean. But yes definitely people who like the look of substantial beefy rings but don''t want a lot of weight will consider palladium a great alternative. To answer your question, in my experience palladium holds up just fine with pave work, just as well as platinum would, but only when cast well. There are some palladium rings out there that are too soft and not too sturdy and so they deform in shape resulting in stones popping out. I tried several casters of pd until I found a couple I was satisfied with. But I haven''t had that problem luckily.

 

[elmo]

Really hard / not brittle would make for nice specialty application like latches, hooks, etc. I thought I saw somewhere that folks often still use non-platinum alloys for that sort of thing.

Yosef, not sure what I was thinking last night...too much wine with dinner I guess

, as I see this morning that our own reference point for a substantial ladies platinum ring is actually just under 10 grams.

The point about retail markups is very good, but maybe not as applicable with the commissioned custom pieces many folks here are getting directly from metal smiths, which is my own frame of reference, but just like the attention people here pay to stone shopping, not the usual case.

To elaborate on pave, I've read that instead of wearing away like white gold does, that the metal is essentially moved around when platinum is worn and polished, which I thought would be related to its durability with pave. Does palladium also behave like this?

p.s. Talk about hard + brittle, I remember reading a few years ago here where folks were speculating about using a mostly iridium alloy for jewelry but the conclusion was this would be the problem. If someone comes up with a 900 Ir alloy that works let me know, that would be very cool and unusual which is one of the neat things about using non-traditional alloys that John is talking about.