Internal Graining in G/VVS1/3xExcellent, help

[ocmove]

Hello,

I've been looking for an engagement ring for the past few weeks and found one that looks good on paper but for some reason doesn't look quite shiny and sparkling to the naked eye. It's a 1.5 ct, VVS1, G color with triple excellent and no fluorescence. The HCA grade score is 1.5. However, the GIA report comments section says 'Clarity grade is based on internal graining that is not shown'. Should I be concerned about this comment? Is the internal graining the reason why it doesn't look as sparking and bright as it should? Below are more of the diamond's details. Is this a fantastic diamond or should I be concerned about the internal graining? Any advice or comments is much appreciated. Thank you.

Measurements: 7.36 - 7.39 x 4.50 mm
Carat Weight: 1.50 carat
Color Grade: G
Clarity Grade: VVS1
Cut Grade: Excellent

Proportions:
Depth: 60.9 %
Table: 59%
Crown Angle: 33.5
Crown Height: 13.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.0
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half: 75%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 4.0%
Culet: None

Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Clarity Characteristics: Completely clean.
Comments: Clarity grade is based on internal graining that is not shown.

HCA Score: 1.5

 

[Alvain]

Its nothing to worry about. The comment is there to show that the diamond has internal graining that stops it achieving an IF clarity grade. That means it doesnt have any other inclusions such as pinpoints, clouds, etc. In fact VVS1 diamonds are all eye clean and to many people, it may be overkill.

This diamond should be a 60/60 diamond with the 59 table which is usually larger than typical modern round brilliant ideal cuts and the 33.5 crown angle which means fire will be less.

This diamond will be bright but with less fire compared to the typical modern RB, is this the type of diamond you are looking for?

 

[ocmove]

Thanks Alvain. I'm looking for a diamond with more sparkles, so I guess, more fire. What scale should I be looking for? I'm also looking for a diamond that is brighter as well as having the fire. What is a 60/60 diamond? So the presence of the internal graining is only stopping it from getting the IF rating and has nothing to do with the fire and sparkles?

There is a second diamond (Diamond B) that I've narrowed down and would like to compare to the first diamond (Diamond A). This one is a 1.52 carat G/VVS2/3xExcellent with no fluorescence and a HCA score of 3.7. It has no internal graining but does have 2 tiny clouds at the edge of the front of the diamond. It appeared a little brighter and sparkled a little more than the first diamond, but the HCA score is 3.7 vs 1.5. Below are the full details of the second diamond (Diamond B). Comparing the two, which diamond is the better diamond in terms of brightness, fire, brilliance, etc?

Diamond B
Measurements: 7.36-7.41 x 4.49 mm
Carat Weight: 1.52 carat
Color Grade: G
Clarity Grade: VVS2
Cut Grade: Excellent

Proportions
Depth: 60.8%
Table: 62%
Crown Angle: 35.0%
Crown Height: 13.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41.0
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 4.0%
Culet: None
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Clarity Characteristics: Cloud (2 tiny clouds at edge)

HCA Score: 3.7

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Ocmove and welcome!

The comment re surface graining is nothing to worry about, especially in this clarity grade.

With the first diamond, the proportions suggest it could be a nice bright diamond but if you're not seeing that and you've checked it in different lighting conditions as far as possible and it still doesn't appeal, that's not the one.

A 60 60 diamond is one with depth and table close to 60%, these were very popular and still are, although it's not as simple as what some believed that a 60 60 is going to be well cut by default of those proportions, they can be fab diamonds and definitely have their fans, including myself. Although it's not set in stone, these can show a nice display of brightness.

I'd pass on the second stone, you can do much better, it has potential issues but on paper I'd pass without further investigation.

Are you intending to buy online? If so, if you're looking online we can help you if you post your budget for the stone and setting.

As a rough guide, here are some proportions you can use.

Depth 60 - 62.4%

Table 54- 57%
Crown angle 34 - 35 deg

Pavilion angle 40.6 - 41 deg

Girdle slightly thin to slightly thick, thin to medium

These aren't set in stone, but if you play golf, they should get you on the putting green if that makes sense or on the outside of the bullseye if you like darts!

 

[rockysalamander]

Not sure of your budget, but this is lovely. Nice crisp arrows. Excellent IS with a smaller table and more classic "ideal" proportions to give you that fire. But, its on the high side as it is from this vendors selected line.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...olor-vvs2-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-4189400

So, at that price, I'd suggest this super-ideal.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3968196.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3965474.htm

If you are willing to do a little legwork by requesting Idealscope (IS) from JA, you might pursue these.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-f-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-2618045 {the video is poorly taken, but this has great angles}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-g-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4247175
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4179468**
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4655848

 

[Matthews1127]

All of the above recommendations are spot-on. The only additional suggestion I have is to seek Diamonds Certified by AGS for comparison, and reach out to @Wink or @Winks_Elf at HPD to ask if they have any top performers that meet your criterion, within your desired budget.

 

[YoLaL]

Hi Alvain, just a quick question here. You mentioned that this diamond will be less fire because of the crown angle is 33.5. How do you measure the fire? Is it by looking at the proportion?

Its nothing to worry about. The comment is there to show that the diamond has internal graining that stops it achieving an IF clarity grade. That means it doesnt have any other inclusions such as pinpoints, clouds, etc. In fact VVS1 diamonds are all eye clean and to many people, it may be overkill.

This diamond should be a 60/60 diamond with the 59 table which is usually larger than typical modern round brilliant ideal cuts and the 33.5 crown angle which means fire will be less.

This diamond will be bright but with less fire compared to the typical modern RB, is this the type of diamond you are looking for?

 

[Alvain]

The second diamond is actually worse than the first, proportions wise.

Lorelei has given the standard proportions for the ideal cut diamonds which are most popular nowadays and rockysalamander as usual has given great recommendations.

I have not owned a 60/60 stone but people who love it says it gives alot of white sparkles but noticably less colored sparkles. But if you want to be safe, modern ideal round brilliants generally gives the best balance.

At vvs1 there should be no inclusions that will affect light performance or it will get a much lower clarity rating.

 

[Alvain]

Hi Alvain, just a quick question here. You mentioned that this diamond will be less fire because of the crown angle is 33.5. How do you measure the fire? Is it by looking at the proportion?

I'm still learning alot about diamonds but there is a belief that steeper crown angles lead to more colored sparkles which is generally termed as fire.

The full answer would be both crown angles and pavilion angles have to be complementary to allow for dispersion of the light which creates the fire.

The diamond in this case has a CA of 33.5 and PA of 41. So the CA is a little too shallow. I believe the ideal proportions should be 34/41.

Again if i am wrong anywhere i would be happy to be corrected.

 

[Lorelei]

I'm still learning alot about diamonds but there is a belief that steeper crown angles lead to more colored sparkles which is generally termed as fire.

The full answer would be both crown angles and pavilion angles have to be complementary to allow for dispersion of the light which creates the fire.

The diamond in this case has a CA of 33.5 and PA of 41. So the CA is a little too shallow. I believe the ideal proportions should be 34/41.

Again if i am wrong anywhere i would be happy to be corrected.

You're doing good Alvain!

And you're correct, as a general rule, a shallower crown angle can help emphasise more white light than fire, conversely, steeper can enhance fire or coloured light. But there's always the exception and YoLal, the only way to really tell is by seeing the stone in different lighting conditions and by using equipment to analyse the optical performance and its components such as fire, brilliance, contrast, scintillation and so forth.

In the case of this diamond with the CA 33.5, with a 41 PA, that can be a very nice combo and still could display a nice balance of everything we want and enjoy in a diamond's performance. For me <33 is starting to lean towards shallow and actually away from the exacting standards of the Cut Nuts here, 33 CA isn't shallow at all. The pavilion angles are really the main engines, the crown angles might help fine tune the performance but the PA's have a lot less leeway in my opinion, especially once you start going much over 41 deg even with a shallower crown angle.

 

[ocmove]

Thank you for everyone's comments/responses as I'm learning a lot more about diamonds, although all the technical talk about proportions and angels is way above my head. But keep them coming because the more I learn about the intricacies of a diamond, the better informed I'll be when spending so much money on one.

As for my budget, I want to stay within the 14k-16k range for the loose stone. Given that price range, I'm looking for round diamonds within the 1.4-1.6 carat, vvs2 and above, D-G color and triple E. The first diamond with the internal graining was $15,000 and the second diamond was $13250. As many have suggested, I'll take the second diamond out of the equation even though it's below my budget.

The diamonds that Rockysalamander suggested are very nice and I'll be requesting the idealscope from JA for the 1.51 carage G-IF Excellent cut for $16,180.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-g-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4247175

Another question I have is on the fluorescence of a diamond. I've been told to look for diamonds with no fluorescence. Some of the diamonds in the above links have faint fluorescence. How does fluorescence affect the diamond? Should a diamond's fluorescence be a deal breaker when considering all the other factors? Thanks.

 

[YoLaL]

@Alvain @Lorelei thanks for the excellent input. So in this case if we want to know the optical performance of the diamond, ( aside from asking scope analysis like Ideal Scope,Aset and HA images ) we need to ask the vendor to provide the light performance of the diamond under different lighting condition. Is that possible?

 

[Lorelei]

@Alvain @Lorelei thanks for the excellent input. So in this case if we want to know the optical performance of the diamond, ( aside from asking scope analysis like Ideal Scope,Aset and HA images ) we need to ask the vendor to provide the light performance of the diamond under different lighting condition. Is that possible?

Hi YoLaL,

Ideally to get the best idea of the nuances of each diamond we can, an expert vendor with the diamond in hand can do that for the potential consumer and describe how it behaves in different lighting. Some might still use the GIA Diamond Dock which shows the stones under different simulated lighting conditions, so it's very possible to do and information I feel the discerning consumer often requests. Some vendors will do videos to show this which can be a great help, they'll show the stone in daylight, sunlight, spotlighting and so forth.

 

[tyty333]

@Alvain @Lorelei thanks for the excellent input. So in this case if we want to know the optical performance of the diamond, ( aside from asking scope analysis like Ideal Scope,Aset and HA images ) we need to ask the vendor to provide the light performance of the diamond under different lighting condition. Is that possible?

There are a few vendors like Good Old Gold that will show you the stone in different lighting conditions to help you decide if you like what you see
(they will also provide an opinion) but in general most vendors do not provide this. You'll have to talk to the vendor and ask wjat they can provide.
Here is a GOG video (one of many)...

Also, look for stones graded AGS000 for ideal light return. H&A can/will also play into. Look for Super Ideal Branded stones to get the best light return
like Whiteflash ACAs, BGD, and HPD.

 

[Lorelei]

There are a few vendors like Good Old Gold that will show you the stone in different lighting conditions to help you decide if you like what you see
(they will also provide an opinion) but in general most vendors do not provide this. You'll have to talk to the vendor and ask wjat they can provide.
Here is a GOG video (one of many)...

Also, look for stones graded AGS000 for ideal light return. H&A can/will also play into. Look for Super Ideal Branded stones to get the best light return
like Whiteflash ACAs, BGD, and HPD.

Most helpful, YoLal, check Ty's video out.

 

[ocmove]

@rockysalamander I just requested the Idealscope from JA for the the 1.51 carat G-IF Excellent cut for $16,180, but they said it's not available because it's overseas in Hong Kong.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-g-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4247175

@rockysalamander @Lorelei and others, my budget is $14k-$16k and I'm looking for a loose stone in the 1.4-1.6 carat range, that is vvs2 and above, D-G color with triple excellent. And of course has the dimensions/proportions that allow for the most fire/brilliance, sparkles, etc. If you happen to see one online that fits this criteria, please send me a link and I'll request the Idealscope for the diamond.

As a general question about fluorescence, I've been advised to look for diamonds with no fluorescence. How does fluorescence affect the diamond? Should a diamond with faint or medium fluorescence be a deal breaker when considering all the other factors? Thanks.

 

[Lorelei]

@rockysalamander I just requested the Idealscope from JA for the the 1.51 carat G-IF Excellent cut for $16,180, but they said it's not available because it's overseas in Hong Kong.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-g-color-if-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4247175

@rockysalamander @Lorelei and others, my budget is $14k-$16k and I'm looking for a loose stone in the 1.4-1.6 carat range, that is vvs2 and above, D-G color with triple excellent. And of course has the dimensions/proportions that allow for the most fire/brilliance, sparkles, etc. If you happen to see one online that fits this criteria, please send me a link and I'll request the Idealscope for the diamond.

As a general question about fluorescence, I've been advised to look for diamonds with no fluorescence. How does fluorescence affect the diamond? Should a diamond with faint or medium fluorescence be a deal breaker when considering all the other factors? Thanks.

We'll be happy to look for you Oco, just to check, would you consider VS clarity as well as VVS? If the cut is superb then there'll be no visual sacrifice with VS clarity but that's a personal preference.

As for fluorescence it's totally a preference. Some purists prefer colourless diamonds without but negligible or medium is absolutely not a deal breaker and it's not something you'd notice anyway unless on rare occasion and that's more strong or very strong blue anyway. Neg to medium should not pose a problem whatsoever so at this stage, I definitely wouldn't avoid it.

 

[ocmove]

We'll be happy to look for you Oco, just to check, would you consider VS clarity as well as VVS? If the cut is superb then there'll be no visual sacrifice with VS clarity but that's a personal preference.

As for fluorescence it's totally a preference. Some purists prefer colourless diamonds without but negligible or medium is absolutely not a deal breaker and it's not something you'd notice anyway unless on rare occasion and that's more strong or very strong blue anyway. Neg to medium should not pose a problem whatsoever so at this stage, I definitely wouldn't avoid it.

I personally would consider VS but based on what her cousins are wearing, the VVS1/2 is the standard that is expected from the family, so I would like to keep it within that range.

As for the diamond that @rockysalamander suggested, should I still consider it even though the Idealscope isn't available? Thanks.

 

[Lorelei]

I personally would consider VS but based on what her cousins are wearing, the VVS1/2 is the standard that is expected from the family, so I would like to keep it within that range.

As for the diamond that @rockysalamander suggested, should I still consider it even though the Idealscope isn't available? Thanks.

No worries and understood, if that's what's expected then absolutely go with VVS.

You could indeed consider the G IF, it has great numbers and looks like a beautiful diamond, an Idealscope is always best to confirm, so you could have it sent to an appraiser near you who could evaluate the diamond for you and possibly provide ASET or IS so you can see it and approve before making the deal final.

 

[rockysalamander]

You can buy your own ASET and take a picture to post here if the vendor can't provide one. It takes a bit of fiddling but with a good quality cell phone camera it works well.

https://datlas.com/ideal-scope-store/new-aset-kit/

 

[YoLaL]

Wow! thank you for sharing this video. How I wish that most vendors can provide this type of video online that showcasing every diamond under different light condition. So the buyer can easily decide or compare rather than keep on asking them the images and other reports.

There are a few vendors like Good Old Gold that will show you the stone in different lighting conditions to help you decide if you like what you see
(they will also provide an opinion) but in general most vendors do not provide this. You'll have to talk to the vendor and ask wjat they can provide.
Here is a GOG video (one of many)...

Also, look for stones graded AGS000 for ideal light return. H&A can/will also play into. Look for Super Ideal Branded stones to get the best light return
like Whiteflash ACAs, BGD, and HPD.