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rockandroll101

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Dec 2, 2009
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I just came across this discussion board 2 days ago. And I am glad I did. While I thought I had done a good job educating myself on the 4c's, turns out there is so much more to learn. I am looking to purchase a diamond within the next week and would appreciated any guidance. I am hoping to propose to my girlfriend during the holiday season. I want to make sure I get her the "right" stone.

From previous post I've learn that I need to get an appraiser in the loop. My plan is to purchase my diamond from one of the most respected online diamond vendors and have it sent directly to the appraiser. If everything is ok, I will then have my jeweler send the diamond to the manufacturer to have the ring sized and the diamond mounted.

I was very close to making a hasty purchase via a highly visible online vendor (BN) because I thought the GIA cert was enough. Since I've visited this board, I've started reading about Hearts and Arrows, Sarin, Idealscope, Bscope, crown/pavilion angles. All terms that were ignored on BN. I've read as many post as I could but now I think I need to start my own thread.

My requirements are as follows:

Round
Ideal/Excellent Cut (H &A)
D-G VS2-SI1 (100% eye clean)
1.7 - 2.0 Carats
Excellent Polish/ Excellent Symmetry

Budget: I would like to stay below 14 K

With your guidance, I hope to make a more educated diamond purchase.
 
Not likely to get a H&A stone with those specs and budget. Drop the specs a bit maybe or a well cut non-H&A stone.
 
Date: 12/2/2009 1:30:22 PM
Author:rockandroll101
I just came across this discussion board 2 days ago. And I am glad I did. While I thought I had done a good job educating myself on the 4c''s, turns out there is so much more to learn. I am looking to purchase a diamond within the next week and would appreciated any guidance. I am hoping to propose to my girlfriend during the holiday season. I want to make sure I get her the ''right'' stone.

From previous post I''ve learn that I need to get an appraiser in the loop. My plan is to purchase my diamond from one of the most respected online diamond vendors and have it sent directly to the appraiser. If everything is ok, I will then have my jeweler send the diamond to the manufacturer to have the ring sized and the diamond mounted.

I was very close to making a hasty purchase via a highly visible online vendor (BN) because I thought the GIA cert was enough. Since I''ve visited this board, I''ve started reading about Hearts and Arrows, Sarin, Idealscope, Bscope, crown/pavilion angles. All terms that were ignored on BN. I''ve read as many post as I could but now I think I need to start my own thread.

My requirements are as follows:

Round
Ideal/Excellent Cut (H &A)
D-G VS2-SI1 (100% eye clean)
1.7 - 2.0 Carats
Excellent Polish/ Excellent Symmetry

Budget: I would like to stay below 14 K

With your guidance, I hope to make a more educated diamond purchase.
Click to expand...
I would just ditto the gentlemen above, are you set on having a h&a diamond or would just a great cut suit? Lots of super diamonds out there which are near h&a or don''t show a crisp h&a pattern which can be gorgeous stones.
 
Date: 12/2/2009 1:49:35 PM
Author: Lorelei
I would just ditto the gentlemen above, are you set on having a h&a diamond or would just a great cut suit? Lots of super diamonds out there which are near h&a or don''t show a crisp h&a pattern which can be gorgeous stones.
Click to expand...

Or even stones that shows good arrow patterns that are not H&A stone due to larger or smaller lower half or miss-aligned facets failing to show good hearts image.
 
jet2ks thanks for the quick reply.

From your perspective, should I go smaller for an H&A stone. Is it worth it?
I noticed the WF stone you posted is AGS rather than GIA, should I care?
 
Thanks Stone.

The one you posted gets me colorless, but the flores, polish and symmetry are less than desirable.
Don''t know if I want to compromise those.
 
AGS is on par with GIA in color and clarity grading, and considered stricter on cut grading. Usually they will command a higher premium than GIA stone of same specs.

Fluor is personal preference, some like it some don't. I like them.
VG in symm and polish is indistinguishable with Ex to the untrained person.

So depends on your preference and priorities. :)
 
What's your take take on near-H&A vs H&A? To be honest, I have never seen an H&A diamond in person. Is there a huge visual difference?
 
Date: 12/2/2009 2:08:33 PM
Author: rockandroll101
What's your take take on near-H&A vs H&A? To be honest, I have never seen an H&A diamond in person. Is there a huge visual difference?
Click to expand...
Depends on how off the near H&A is. Some are just so small a difference that it is not noticeable, some are visible in that the alignment of the arrows are off. It is also a preference thing, some like the orderly symm of the arrow alignment some don't. But performance wise, it is the angles that need to work well together.

EDT:
H&A is a measure of optical symm and does not necessary equate to optical performance. You can have a poor performing stone with great H&A pattern or a great performing stone with bad H&A pattern.
 
Date: 12/2/2009 2:08:33 PM
Author: rockandroll101
What's your take take on near-H&A vs H&A? To be honest, I have never seen an H&A diamond in person. Is there a huge visual difference?
Click to expand...
This very much depends on the stones in question, to me a top cut h&a diamond with excellent optical symmetry ( responsible for the hearts and arrows patterning) doesn't look much different to a diamond that also has excellent proportions but not so good optical symmetry at casual viewing without scopes. The proportions, especially the crown and pavilion angles mainly drive the light return and are responsible for the beauty we expect from diamonds, sparkle - fire, brilliance and scintillation and you can have that without perfect h&a patterning.
 
What should be my threshold for crown and pavilion angles?
 
Date: 12/2/2009 2:48:54 PM
Author: rockandroll101
What should be my threshold for crown and pavilion angles?
Click to expand...

I will post something that will help, here are some guidelines to help you find a well cut round diamond. If you go for one of the branded h&a diamonds such as A Cut Above from Whiteflash, Infinity etc then these will be of excellent proportions anyway.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!


As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

From expert John Pollard.

With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.


GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).


 
Date: 12/2/2009 2:08:33 PM
Author: rockandroll101
What's your take take on near-H&A vs H&A? To be honest, I have never seen an H&A diamond in person. Is there a huge visual difference?
Click to expand...
Of your criteria, H&A would be the first thing I would drop to stay in budget. As the others have commented, if you have a well cut stone that is not H&A there is not a perceptible difference to the naked eye. The reason I like the GOG stone best of the ones I posted is the beautiful cut and light performance--it being an H&A is just bonus. With GOG's excellent lifetime buyback and upgrade policies, that just kind of kicks it ahead for me.

I personally cannot tell the difference between G and H color (or even really D and H in most circumstances), so that wouldn't bother me. Others are more color sensitive and like G or above.

Your priorities might be different, so figure out what is most important--size, color, clarity, vendor policies (yes, you need to consider those when making a purchase this large, as well) and go from there. We will be happy to help
 
Lorelei. Thanks for the detailed specs.
 
Date: 12/2/2009 3:17:33 PM
Author: rockandroll101
Lorelei. Thanks for the detailed specs.
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Glad to help, just ask if you need any more assistance!
 
The concession is that if I drop my H&A requirement, I can still get a stone with a great cut if I look for the appropriate proportions. I received some great advice on the topic.

How should I deal with color? Should I stick to my desire for an F or G stone?
 
Check out this video on diamond color

http://vimeo.com/3288695


Everyone is different in their ability to detect color. F or G is a great range to guarantee a very white diamond, as very few people can see any hint of color in these grades, and almost never once mounted. A well cut stone also helps mask body color because of how well it reflects light--most of what you see is reflection of colors in the environment, not the diamond itself.

Once you start getting into I & J colors, the diamond takes on more of an antique, soft white, rather than the icy appearance of a colorless. Some people really like the warm appearance of these colors and actively seek them out, but unless you know your gf likes them, then something in the G color range is a great choice. Since you can get a well cut diamond in a G color and desired size that fits the budget, I would recommend staying close to that, like maybe searching F-H.
 
Date: 12/2/2009 3:32:32 PM
Author: rockandroll101
The concession is that if I drop my H&A requirement, I can still get a stone with a great cut if I look for the appropriate proportions. I received some great advice on the topic.

How should I deal with color? Should I stick to my desire for an F or G stone?
Click to expand...
I think the idea of looking for an ideal set of proportions without paying for the H&A premium is a really good decision. As for color... well that is such a personal thing. All colors are beautiful, and the lower colors have a sort of "winter white" look to them that is appealing. But everyone differs in their desires. Have you gone and actually viewed different diamonds to know your own tolerances? Jered''s peerless are AGS0 diamonds (or can be, ask) as are Hearts on Fire. Check out some stones away from the jewelers lights.

That said, I personally would drop to an H to get the size I wanted
11.gif
I have owned a J and a K and will own a G shortly, and I like the near colorless look, but H is a very colorless grade and will probably be 100% fine for the majority of people!
 
GOG''s inventory seems to be pretty low. Any other vendors I should be searching?
 
Date: 12/6/2009 11:15:33 PM
Author: rockandroll101
GOG''s inventory seems to be pretty low. Any other vendors I should be searching?
Click to expand...

whiteflash
 
I was in a VERY similar situation as you not too long ago.

In the store, I had a very hard time seeing a difference between D all the way to I/J. I ended up buying an H and was only able to see a difference when my appraiser had it up against CZs in a controlled lighting environment and viewing from the side.

I wanted the best I could get for my money, like you, but could not figure out which spec to sacrifice. Everyone asked what was important to me... and I finally decided that cut was most important to me, so I went with an H&A H VS2.

I was told a good cut will make a lower color stone look higher. Anything down to VS2 and you're almost guaranteed not to see any blemishes; SI1 or 2, just make sure it's eye clean.

Good luck!
 
I think you may be obsessing over every little detail--there are lots of amazing stones out there that arent "perfect" according to Pricescope
 
I''ve taken a few days to try and digest all the information.

As per all the previous posts, I have decided to compromise on the H&A requirement. Thanks to everyone that suggested stones.
Any favorites?

1.7 G SI1 Round
http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-2228495.htm#

1.70 G SI1
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1216270.asp

1.72 G SI1 .
Is the table too large? 58
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1264803.asp


H & A option:

1.72ct H SI1 Round Hearts and Arrows Diamond
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6727/


I wonder if WF and JA will provide IdealScope and DiamXray images? Any experience with them?
 
Whiteflash specializes in H&A diamonds, the one you selected is not an in house diamond. I personally would not bother having them call it in when you can go with another vendor easily who has non H&As in house, like James Allen.

The first JA diamond looks good by the numbers. Second one gets a 2 on the HCA, I personally think the table is larger than I like and the pavilion a little steeper. Call them and they will take an idealscope image of the first one, this will also put the diamond on hold for you. This is a great vendor. Act soon to put it on hold, lukers snatch up recommended diamonds sometimes. The GOG is great, but at 2k more than the JA, why go there? ETA GOG has a really good upgrade policy, not sure about JA. That may be worth the extra money.
 
The WF stone is the same one as the 1.70c JA stone. Same dimensions, virtual stone.

Both JA stone looks promising. Ask for an IS image and if they are eye-clean.
 
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