I''m furious - irradition - acceptable or not?

[LD]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr hang onto your seats for this little gem of information!

A UK TV jewellery station has started selling "Shimoyo" Rubellite. Apparently this was found at the Shimoyo mine in Mozambique from January to April 2008 when production ran out. It's being sold at very high prices indeed. BTW this is NOT where I bought my new Rubellite pendant from

On their enhancements page it says that Shimoyo Rubellite is typically heated and/or irradiated. When questioned by a friend of mine their gem buyer responded by saying "Please note that irradiated Tourmaline is almost impossible to detect and thus there is generally no price difference for this enhancement."

WHAT????? He's gotta be kidding, right? Mind you this is from the same gem buyer who thinks that BE treatment is fully acceptable.

I'd love to hear your thoughts ...............

1. Is irradiation acceptable in Rubellite?
2. Does it decrease the value of the gemstone?

My answers would be no and yes.

 

[T L]

LD,
They use heat to first make the ugly tourmaline (whatever color it is) colorless, then nuke it to make it pink, so it's typically double treated to get that color. What irks me most is that they should not be calling it rubellite. IMO I wouldn't touch the stuff with a million foot pole, and it saddens me that true rich red rubellite, which is a valuable secondary gem, is tainted by this.

 

[chrono]

My answer is the same as yours. It is not acceptable and should be discounted. I have heard that this heating and nuking process is difficult to detect and is now commonly done on pink tourmalines. This is the reason I am staying away from pink and red tourmalines unless I buy directly from a cutter or vendor who knows if it has undergone any treatment.

 

[LD]

Thank you TL / Chrono. You've echo'ed my thoughts exactly.

I was incensed by the reply. I'm not naive. I know that treatments exist BUT when there is "proper" Rubellite available, unheated untreated, for the same price and less ................. oooooooh I'm seriously seeing red here (Rubellite red!).

BTW I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole but some unfortunately souls have been.

 

[icekid]

I''m with you, LD! How is there no difference between a stone that came from the ground looking spectacular, vs one that needed radiation to look good? That is insane.

 

[T L]

I don't want to open a can of worms because we've all had this discussion before. However, this is really part of the larger problem of the television gem shopping networks and their profuse lying to the public.

 

[LD]

Oh I agree TL. I am infuriated that, although there is normally an enhancements page on the website of these channels, nothing is mentioned on screen and, more recently the prices have been outstripping carat for carat the price of natural unheated/untreated gemstones. A 3ct irradiated Rubellite has been selling for £800 ish (that''s around $1140). Okay, it''s in a setting, ready to wear etc etc but ...........

I was really mortified when the gem buyer told me he thought BE diffusion was acceptable and now the norm and then today to defend irradiation and say that it doesn''t affect value, beggars belief.

Maybe I''m from the old school, who just prefers what natures brings. I don''t know. If I''m offered a treated gemstone at the same price as a natural one, I know which I''ll get getting

 

[T L]

Date: 5/4/2009 5:40:05 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Oh I agree TL. I am infuriated that, although there is normally an enhancements page on the website of these channels, nothing is mentioned on screen and, more recently the prices have been outstripping carat for carat the price of natural unheated/untreated gemstones. A 3ct irradiated Rubellite has been selling for £800 ish (that''s around $1140). Okay, it''s in a setting, ready to wear etc etc but ...........

I was really mortified when the gem buyer told me he thought BE diffusion was acceptable and now the norm and then today to defend irradiation and say that it doesn''t affect value, beggars belief.

Maybe I''m from the old school, who just prefers what natures brings. I don''t know. If I''m offered a treated gemstone at the same price as a natural one, I know which I''ll get getting

That''s ridiculous when you can get this material all over ebay for next to nothing. If you see any hot pink tourmalines sold by Thai sellers, it''s most likely an irradiated/heated pink tourmaline. That''s utter robbery IMHO.

 

[cushioncutnut]

Agreed! What is the benefit to paying more for a treated stone!---and What a sales pitch that gem buyer is pulling over on there customers????? Such deception!!! I wonder if the irradiation makes the stone look "phony" looking...like plastic? Phewy on that!

 

[T L]

Date: 5/4/2009 6:39:02 PM
Author: cushioncutnut
Agreed! What is the benefit to paying more for a treated stone!---and What a sales pitch that gem buyer is pulling over on there customers????? Such deception!!! I wonder if the irradiation makes the stone look ''phony'' looking...like plastic? Phewy on that!

I''m not saying that this one is, but the irradiated stones I''ve seen look a lot like this one. Richard Homer also sells irradiated pink tourmaline, but he states it''s irradiated in his listings.

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-90cts-Excellent-High-Quality-Pink-Paraiba-Tourmaline_W0QQitemZ260401251165QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca11fc35d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1326%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

 

[cushioncutnut]

Date: 5/4/2009 7:31:46 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 5/4/2009 6:39:02 PM
Author: cushioncutnut
Agreed! What is the benefit to paying more for a treated stone!---and What a sales pitch that gem buyer is pulling over on there customers????? Such deception!!! I wonder if the irradiation makes the stone look ''phony'' looking...like plastic? Phewy on that!

I''m not saying that this one is, but the irradiated stones I''ve seen look a lot like this one. Richard Homer also sells irradiated pink tourmaline, but he states it''s irradiated in his listings.

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-90cts-Excellent-High-Quality-Pink-Paraiba-Tourmaline_W0QQitemZ260401251165QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca11fc35d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1326%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Well at least he discloses it...but I am still not understanding the purpose of it. The picture in that Ebay listing looks pretty doctored up.... would be intriguing to see it in person. So what is next in gemstone treatments?? Pretty soon all gems will be treated and then what??? It has become ridiculous!!

 

[T L]

Date: 5/4/2009 8:09:33 PM
Author: cushioncutnut

Date: 5/4/2009 7:31:46 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 5/4/2009 6:39:02 PM
Author: cushioncutnut
Agreed! What is the benefit to paying more for a treated stone!---and What a sales pitch that gem buyer is pulling over on there customers????? Such deception!!! I wonder if the irradiation makes the stone look ''phony'' looking...like plastic? Phewy on that!

I''m not saying that this one is, but the irradiated stones I''ve seen look a lot like this one. Richard Homer also sells irradiated pink tourmaline, but he states it''s irradiated in his listings.

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-90cts-Excellent-High-Quality-Pink-Paraiba-Tourmaline_W0QQitemZ260401251165QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca11fc35d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1326%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Well at least he discloses it...but I am still not understanding the purpose of it. The picture in that Ebay listing looks pretty doctored up.... would be intriguing to see it in person. So what is next in gemstone treatments?? Pretty soon all gems will be treated and then what??? It has become ridiculous!!

It''s very disheartening, I agree. That''s why it''s important to buy from reputable dealers and people you can trust. It''s also important to get an education on the myriad of treatments, and Pricescope has been instrumental in that for many consumers looking to buy colored gems. I just feel bad for the uneducated consumer that spends thousands and is getting garbage and treated gunk. Very sad.

 

[chrono]

I''d rather get a synthetic stone for a few dollars instead of buying irradiated junk.

 

[Imdanny]

NO and YES IMHO.

 

[LD]

I''m so glad you all agree. I was absolutely incensed when I read the gem buyer''s reply. I guess for some people treatments aren''t important but they are to me and disclosing them up front should, IMVHO, be mandatory. You shouldn''t have to go fishing for information.

Thanks for your support!

 

[cushioncutnut]

Date: 5/5/2009 3:01:05 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
I'm so glad you all agree. I was absolutely incensed when I read the gem buyer's reply. I guess for some people treatments aren't important but they are to me and disclosing them up front should, IMVHO, be mandatory. You shouldn't have to go fishing for information.

Thanks for your support!

I wonder how JTV rates as far as JVC goes (Jewelers Vigilance Commitee)............. Oh wait, they don't seem to be apart of the JVC...so it seems?? Hmmm...makes you wonder

Chrone, I agree, if I am hardly paying anything for a stone...I can pretty much go into it knowing that I am getting what I am paying for........... but yes, If I am paying Big BUCKS............ I want full disclosure!!!

 

[T L]

Date: 5/5/2009 3:01:05 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
I'm so glad you all agree. I was absolutely incensed when I read the gem buyer's reply. I guess for some people treatments aren't important but they are to me and disclosing them up front should, IMVHO, be mandatory. You shouldn't have to go fishing for information.

Thanks for your support!

You should send that emailed reply from the buyer to the JVC.

 

[LD]

TL, this isn't from The Jewellery Channel or GemsTV who have a presence in the US. This is (as far as I'm aware) from a UK based TV jewellery channel so JVC would have no jurisdiction. Because this has now been questioned on another jewellery forum in the UK, they have changed their enhancements page to be more specific - but it shouldn't take a consumer's question on a forum to do this, should it?

I have NO problem if (a) there's full disclosure up front about treatments and (b) gems are priced accordingly. Neither of this has happened in this case AND the gem buyer says that only 10% of this batch of Rubellite has been irradiated, the other 90% is "natural" although for natural read heated(!) - but how would I know that I would be getting part of the 90% - there's no way to tell. So how could it be valued properly? How can the prices be the same for the 90 and 10%. This just sucks big time!

 

[T L]

I wonder if there is some regulatory commission in the UK for these things.

 

[LD]

Date: 5/5/2009 7:26:38 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I wonder if there is some regulatory commission in the UK for these things.

Unfortunately no. We have Trading Standards and the Advertising Standards Authority. The problem is that they only deal with inaccuracies that are said/shown on air.

There is no regulatory body for tv jewellery selling and they are solely covered by distance selling regulations. Not great but there you are.

Several companies have been reported for inaccurate or misleading starting prices, valuations etc., but that''s about it.

The latest tactic of one of these tv jewellery companies is to over-sell their product or if their product sells for lower than they want they tell people that their item has not passed QC. Disgraceful.

 

[T L]

Date: 5/6/2009 3:32:34 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 5/5/2009 7:26:38 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I wonder if there is some regulatory commission in the UK for these things.

Unfortunately no. We have Trading Standards and the Advertising Standards Authority. The problem is that they only deal with inaccuracies that are said/shown on air.

There is no regulatory body for tv jewellery selling and they are solely covered by distance selling regulations. Not great but there you are.

Several companies have been reported for inaccurate or misleading starting prices, valuations etc., but that''s about it.

The latest tactic of one of these tv jewellery companies is to over-sell their product or if their product sells for lower than they want they tell people that their item has not passed QC. Disgraceful.

That is disgraceful, and what is worse is that there seems to be nothing you can do about it. I''m so sorry.

 

[shimoyoo]

Hi everyone i know there has been alot of negative comments about the shimoyo rubellite however i would like to pass on my positive comments about this gem .

I have been a collector of rubellite for years and know a good 1 when i see it. I purchased a very large 18carat shimoyo rubellite and diamond pendant for £1200 the clarity on this gem stone is amazing for such a large gem! I i sent it to one of the largest companies in the uk for a valuation. The pendant came back and was valued at £4500!!

So please do not slag this gem off until you have seen it yourself and know what you are talking about.

 

[LD]

Date: 5/15/2009 6:49:42 PM
Author: shimoyoo
Hi everyone i know there has been alot of negative comments about the shimoyo rubellite however i would like to pass on my positive comments about this gem .

I have been a collector of rubellite for years and know a good 1 when i see it. I purchased a very large 18carat shimoyo rubellite and diamond pendant for £1200 the clarity on this gem stone is amazing for such a large gem! I i sent it to one of the largest companies in the uk for a valuation. The pendant came back and was valued at £4500!!

So please do not slag this gem off until you have seen it yourself and know what you are talking about.

I have seen it. I do know what I'm talking about. Did you tell the valuer it was an irradiated gemstone? If you're really a collector of Rubellite then you'd have known not to touch it with a bargepole. If you believe the hype and rubbish from Rocks and Co then that's your business but don't try to persuade others to do so.

Oh and let's just be clear ............ Rocks and Co employees have been posting on forums in the UK trying to defend this particular product pretending to be customers! If the gemstone were that great, they wouldn't have to do that. It's pathetic. Read the comments above about what true collectors feel about irradiated Rubellite.

 

[shimoyoo]

yes they know all about the gem they are all gemologists if you look up safeguard valuers on there website http://www.theassayoffice.co.uk/safeguard/spjvs.html you will know they have all of the testing equiptment to ensure genuine valuation....these are the professionals so why would they lie about a valuation they value thousands of jewellery every day!

obviously you do not know your stuff and i have also got the certificate for my insurance.

Im very pleased with my investment and i have it in black and white on paper for valuation.

P.S The AAA tanzanite is worth buying from rocks and co i purchased a AAAtanzanite for £999 and the valuation came back at £5500! I took it into tiffanys in London and even they could not believe i only paid £999 from rocks and co they said if i only paid that i am laughing all the way to the bank......very happy i m as you can imagine

 

[LD]

Date: 5/15/2009 7:10:47 PM
Author: shimoyoo
yes they know all about the gem they are all gemologists if you look up safeguard valuers on there website http://www.theassayoffice.co.uk/safeguard/spjvs.html you will know they have all of the testing equiptment to ensure genuine valuation....these are the professionals so why would they lie about a valuation they value thousands of jewellery every day!

obviously you do not know your stuff and i have also got the certificate for my insurance.

Im very pleased with my investment and i have it in black and white on paper for valuation.

P.S The AAA tanzanite is worth buying from rocks and co i purchased a AAAtanzanite for £999 and the valuation came back at £5500! I took it into tiffanys in London and even they could not believe i only paid £999 from rocks and co they said if i only paid that i am laughing all the way to the bank......very happy i m as you can imagine

Did you tell Safeguard that the Rubellite was irradiated? Did you tell them it was heated? Rocks and Co do not provide certificates or anything that says how their gemstones have been treated. One further thing, as quite clearly you don't understand how Safeguard operate, they do not use equipment when conducting valuations other than an RI and a loupe.

Do you realise that a valuation from Safeguard is not an indication of worth? It is a replacement value only. Therefore you are not laughing all the way to the bank - try and sell it for that, I think you'll get a nasty shock. Gemstones should not be considered investments as you have said.

Amazing how when this channel gets negative publicity people pop up with first posts all over the place to promote them and tell others they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[shimoyoo]

well to be honest i dont care what you think i am very happy with my purchase and my valuation

 

[T L]

LD,
I want to thank you so much for notifying PS members of this company''s questionable and unethical practices. I see on their treatment''s page under shimoyo tourmaline the following verbiage:

While the vast majority of Shimoyo Rubellite is natural, approximately 10 percent has been irradiated to improve their colour. Please note that irradiated Tourmaline is almost impossible to detect, and is therefore generally regarded as not impacting value.

http://www.rocksandco.com/library/gemstone-enhancement.asp

 

[Gailey]

Date: 5/15/2009 7:37:11 PM
Author: shimoyoo
well to be honest i dont care what you think i am very happy with my purchase and my valuation

That''s marvellous Shimmy, did you get a healthy staff discount?

Might I respectfully suggest that before you post such endorsements on Pricescope, in the same breath as suggesting that our members do not know what they are talking about, you do a teensy-weensy bit of research here to educate your self as to just how much we do know.

You might want to do that before you make your 4th post on this forum.

As I have been known to say in the past, we did not "Sail down the Clyde on a banana boat"

 

[Coooper]

Hello all, another first time poster here.

Shimoyoo - please be careful. From Safeguard, you don''t get a full appraisal of the gem. All you get is a monetary indication of how much the jewellery would cost to replace and that''t not the same thing at all . In fact if you make an insurance claim you will NOT get that sum of money anyway.

I have some reasonably expensive jewellery from UK shopping channels which I''ve taken to proper gemologists for assessment. You don''t get the ''oh wow this is worth five times what I paid for it'' feelgood factor - what you DO get is detailed knowledgeable information on exactly what you''ve bought. In the short term it enables you to decide whether to keep the gem - in the long term it really does avoid any disappointment later on when you find out that your precious jewellery is not what you thought it was.

And to everyone else - Hello and thanks for all the great information that I''ve learned from reading PS!

 

[LD]

Hi Coooper and welcome to the forum!

I've got to say that I agree with you 100%. My cousin is one of the 6 valuers at Safeguard and I can confirm you're correct. The only point I would disagree on is that insurance companies will pay out (for diamonds anyway) on a Safeguard valuation. Unlike the ridiculous valuation companies recommended by some of the UK jewellery channels who get so much re-sizing/mending business, that they're valuations are a joke!!!

I'm not sure if you're aware (you probably are

) that Safeguard is an affiliate of the Birmingham Assay Office. They also have the facility (if you pay for it) to check gemstones for origin, authenticity etc. You pay £x per carat - depending on what you want - and the work is carried out by a gemologist.

TL - You're more than welcome! TBH if somebody is spending large amounts of money you would think they'd do their homework wouldn't you but it never ceases to amaze me how many don't!? BTW every single sapphire that Rocks and Co sell are BE diffused! Something that you don't hear a whisper about when the piece is being aired!!!

Gailey - ((((hug))))