IGI yellow diamonds at Leibish.

[JaneSmith]

I've been browsing the lovely FCD'S at the Leibish & Co website, and I see they have some smaller yellow ones (<.5ct) that look nice to my untrained eye, but are IGI certed. They are also cheaper.
I've read some of the old threads here discussing IGI, but they were all about colourless diamonds. Does anyone have some knowledge about their grading standards for FCD'S? Are they cheaper because of soft grading?
I'm no good at posting pics from my idevice, but here is a link to a page showing two lots of two fancy yellow radiants .6ctw, one lot IGI, the other GIA.
http://www.fancydiamonds.net/4/yellow_diamonds
There are more IGI yellows on the previous pages too.

I know grading for fancy colors is a whole other ball game from the D-Z colourless, and it may be hard to say why exactly the two lots of .6ctw fancy yellow radiants are priced so differently, but I was wondering if IGI is OK or not for FCD'S.

 

[kenny]

I stick to GIA.
It may be just because I'm a snob.
It's certainly not because I've seen many examples of generous FCD grading by IGI - perhaps someone has and can speak up - but FCDs are so rare there will be very little data to go on.
I've just never pursued an FCD without a GIA report.

Small yellows sell at a lower price and GIA reports costs more and probably take longer than IGI, so they make the business decision to use IGI.

With an expensive FCD purchase you want the most dependable lab grades possible, hence GIA.
When buying a small yellow, less money is at stake so I can understand if someone felt IGI was acceptable.
Some FCDs offered by Leibish have no grading report at all.

 

[JaneSmith]

Bloody hell Kenny, that was fast! You must have a spidey sense for someone typing "FCD".
Thanks for the reply. That is a good point about the report cost and lower price point for these yellows.

Do you know if the colour grading is soft? Like an IGI fancy yellow being the equivalent of a GIA fancy light yellow?

ETA: I posted while you were adding to your post, so you answered my question. I would like to hear from some industry people too.
I think for the little wee ones I linked to, if they looked nice and were a couple of hundred cheaper because of IGI, I would buy them.

 

[kenny]

Do you know if the colour grading is soft? Like an IGI fancy yellow being the equivalent of a GIA fancy light yellow?

I do not know.

I'd call Leibish and ask them point blank.
Then call all the other FCD vendors and ask them the same question.

These are the people who know if IGI is softer than GIA on FCDs.
Whether or not they'll tell a customer is another matter, which is why I'd call all of them.

 

[JaneSmith]

Calling is a good idea. I'm not buying just yet though, so won't bug them. It would be interesting to see a pic of all four yellow radiants together.

 

[JaneSmith]

Whether or not they'll tell a customer is another matter, ...

This is just frustrating.

 

[chrono]

IGI is very soft on colourless diamond grading so I would expect the same for FCDs.

 

[Noam]

Actually IGI is considered a good gemological institute in whites (much more strict than EGL).
When it comes to natural colored diamonds, GIA is the authority.
By the way, I only mean the color, the clarity would have gotten the same grading (probably).

Consider the simple fact that you can often find dealers and retailers (especially on the we) that offer two similar diamonds, one with IGI cert and the other with GIA cert and the price of the GIA diamond is by far more expensive - and it is not because of the price of the certificate.

Another thing to consider - have you ever seen a precious and rare colored diamond (big pink/blue etc.) being sold at the auction houses with an IGI certificate?

With that said, I have to agree with kenny - in FCD I'd stick to GIA...

 

[chrono]

Actually IGI is considered a good gemological institute in whites (much more strict than EGL).
When it comes to natural colored diamonds, GIA is the authority.
By the way, I only mean the color, the clarity would have gotten the same grading (probably).

Do you mean EGL USA or EGL other? I would agree with you on EGL other but not on EGL USA.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-isnt-igi-and-egl-reputable.145897/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-isnt-igi-and-egl-reputable.145897/[/URL]
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ags-gia-igi-question.87892/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ags-gia-igi-question.87892/[/URL]

 

[AN0NYM0US]

I actually bought a FCD with an IGI report and sent it to GIA for comparison. What does it mean? Nothing really. It is just one example, but I haven't seen any other examples of comparison between the two labs for FCD's.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

to save some squinting lol...the two differences were IGI said it was Fancy Pink vs GIA Fancy Light Pink and IGI said SI2 vs GIA SI1

 

[JaneSmith]

Thank you for posting those certs AN0N.

 

[chrono]

Great post, Anon. Seems like in your case, IGI is less stringent on both colour and clarity compared to GIA.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

I'm glad I could help (maybe)

IGI was less stringent on the colour, but more so on the clarity. Either way one grade difference is pretty good.

 

[Benji]

I wish I had the ability to post at the speed that some of your guys answer these queries!
IGI uses different methods of grading their stones than GIA does. It is a quicker and much less expensive process.

Although the results were quite different in AN0NYM0US’s post (IGI’s Fancy Pink vs. GIA Fancy Light Pink – which is actually quite a significant difference this is not an everyday thing), IGI generally does not give ‘softer’ grading than GIA (according to my exp..). It is like going to a doctor who is quite familiar with that field verses a professor who studies that field meticulously and has much more experience and knowledge and will give you a much more accurate answer – not to mention the professor will charge three times the price!

The results will most often be quite similar, although like we have all seen, sometimes they aren’t. A GIA cert is respected through and through as opposed to IGI, which although it is acceptable and even good, it just isn’t on the same level of GIA.
For a smaller stone, so that Leibish & Co. can keep the cost down, smaller stones are often sent to IGI as opposed to sending through to GIA.

Benji

 

[chrono]

Benji,

Just curious but do you know or can you explain how IGI's method of grading stones is different from GIA, which would impact the time it takes and thus, the cost? Does it affect accuracy? The problem with the doctor versus expert professor is that in this case, the end resulting price can make a big difference depending on the results for highly desired colours, carat weight and etc. It could even be in the thousands of dollars range difference! I suppose, as you said, for small and very light coloured stones which costs in the mere hundreds, an IGI might suffice.

 

[Benji]

Hi Chrono,

I don't personally have that information but I think the one word most people can agree on is Credibility. I tried sending a few emails to some contacts just to see if anyone else has a more descriptive answer and I will be happy to post it if they do.

Again, having said this, I don't and would never disqualify IGI diamond grading. I know that as a European company there are a number of people in Europe that actually prefer an IGI cert (that coming directly from our in-house diamond buyer).

In general, it could be small differences like GIA having a larger collection of 'master stones', perhaps employees with more experience in the trade, or a more comprehensive (and therefore time consuming) procedure... but again, since I don't know for a fact what the differences are I don't want to make any concrete statements until I find out...

If I find out anything else, I will let you know...

Best..

 

[Rockdiamond]

Benji,

Just curious but do you know or can you explain how IGI's method of grading stones is different from GIA, which would impact the time it takes and thus, the cost? Does it affect accuracy? The problem with the doctor versus expert professor is that in this case, the end resulting price can make a big difference depending on the results for highly desired colours, carat weight and etc. It could even be in the thousands of dollars range difference! I suppose, as you said, for small and very light coloured stones which costs in the mere hundreds, an IGI might suffice.

Hi Chrono- I'd like t take a stab at this....
We also have worked with some FCD diamonds graded by IGI lately.
We also worked closely with them here in New York in the late '90's.

I agree that for less costly stones, it's a viable alternative.
They'll spot treatments, which in itself, is a strong point.
And also- we all agree no one really competes with GIA in this arena- but IGI lacks a lot of the negative image some of the other non GIA labs suffer.

Chrono- based on the time GIA takes- and understanding the complexities of fancy color grading first hand, I'd say the quick turnaround is a definite factor in FCD color grading accuracy.
There's times it takes me a week- literally- to grade a fancy color. It's necessary to view the stone at different times of day ( for me anyway)
Clarity grading is totally different- even borderline stones can be graded quickly. Imperfections look the same in the morning and at night. Color does not.
This is not to say GIA is using daylight for color grading. But even the way a person perceives color in the same light changes based on time of day.

 

[chrono]

Hi Chrono,

I don't personally have that information but I think the one word most people can agree on is Credibility. I tried sending a few emails to some contacts just to see if anyone else has a more descriptive answer and I will be happy to post it if they do.

Again, having said this, I don't and would never disqualify IGI diamond grading. I know that as a European company there are a number of people in Europe that actually prefer an IGI cert (that coming directly from our in-house diamond buyer).

In general, it could be small differences like GIA having a larger collection of 'master stones', perhaps employees with more experience in the trade, or a more comprehensive (and therefore time consuming) procedure... but again, since I don't know for a fact what the differences are I don't want to make any concrete statements until I find out...

If I find out anything else, I will let you know...

Best..

Benji,
Are you in the trade?

 

[chrono]

Thanks for chiming in, David. Spotting treatment is great and I agree that clarity grading is quite straightforward but I'm sure just about everyone would be concerned about colour accuracy in FCDs. Any idea how different the turnaround time is for IGI versus GIA?

Does IGI put valuation on FCD reports the same way they do on colourless diamonds? To me, that's totally useless and over-inflated but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I'm thinking it's 24 hours for a consult- maybe even same day if need be.

I don't know about values....quite honestly, I will not use anything BUT GIA or AGSL- so when a diamond has other paper, i generally toss it. Basically, the IGI's we've purchased, I have not even looked carefully at the report.

 

[kenny]

Benji,
Are you in the trade?

I was curious too since this is a new poster and there is no trade banner or link to website so I did some snooping.

Since he wrote this in his first post, "For a smaller stone, so that Leibish & Co. can keep the cost down, smaller stones are often sent to IGI as opposed to sending through to GIA." it was reasonable to assume he is with Leibish.

I remembered that on their website are pics of all their staff members under "About Us - Meet Our Team". http://www.fancydiamonds.net/about_us/meet_our_team

Since they're in Israel Benji's probably snoring now.



It's gotta be this guy.

 

[chrono]

Looks very much like the same person!

 

[kenny]

I'm sure he'll get a spanking from Ella for not having a trade banner yet.

 

[minousbijoux]

Nice sleuthing, Kenny. The only Private I and Diamond and Gemstone photographer Extraordinaire I know...

 

[kenny]

Thanks Min.
You may throw money at me, better yet FCDs.

 

[chrono]

Only untreated FCDs of at least a GIA graded fancy intense.

 

[minousbijoux]

Yes, and I shall surely do that. Just please wait patiently....

 

[T L]

I wish I could find the thread, but I do remember that a dealer told us that "GIA has ruined stones for him' and they get a 'better' grading through IGI. For example, a GIA fancy brownish pink might be a fancy orange pink through IGI. I would stick with GIA in that case. If I find the thread or comment, I'll post the link.

 

[kenny]

I wish I could find the thread, but I do remember that a dealer told us that "GIA has ruined stones for him' and they get a 'better' grading through IGI. For example, a GIA fancy brownish pink might be a fancy orange pink through IGI. I would stick with GIA in that case. If I find the thread or comment, I'll post the link.

Yes, that's why I stick with GIA-graded FCDs.
My problem is, if I want a 22-point brown or yellow many of my options will have been graded by IGI.