IDEX Closes News Forum JKD/GIA Stafford Case

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/3/2008 10:53:15 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/2/2008 8:24:16 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Thanks Sergey,

So in this case cutting the stone to a shape with a shorter ray path could reduce the amount of orangy brown and gain a better pink colour?

So a cushion or radiant would not be the best choice?

As I remeber the DiamCalc ColourPro software can caluculate the average ray trace and a scatter plot of face up colour in a 2D graph showing the likely grade range for each virtual facet?

yes. See round cut( same spectrum, same weight )

Sergey Have you tried to model zoning yet..

The simplest would be a two zone stone, each zone with its separate absorption characteristic.

It is a relatively straight forward software problem, but still a pain in the neck, checking to see if the projected ray line segment defined between two facets intersects a zone plane boundary and then piecewise modifying the absorption.
Might be interesting project and definately usefull.

Keep the 4 zone plane coefficients as arbitrary inputs starting with the girdle plane and let people change the plane coefficients to cut the stone arbitrarily and you can project how it cuts the stone fairly easily I believe.
Requires doubling up the absorption coefficients into 2D arrays.

This might be really useful for colored stones like sapphire.

I could do it with my software, but I don''t do the rendering you do, as my stuff was never designed for that, but I did it as an independent cross check on GIA''s ray trace results.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/3/2008 2:27:36 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/3/2008 10:53:15 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/2/2008 8:24:16 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Thanks Sergey,

So in this case cutting the stone to a shape with a shorter ray path could reduce the amount of orangy brown and gain a better pink colour?

So a cushion or radiant would not be the best choice?

As I remeber the DiamCalc ColourPro software can caluculate the average ray trace and a scatter plot of face up colour in a 2D graph showing the likely grade range for each virtual facet?

yes. See round cut( same spectrum, same weight )

Sergey Have you tried to model zoning yet..

The simplest would be a two zone stone, each zone with its separate absorption characteristic.

It is a relatively straight forward software problem, but still a pain in the neck, checking to see if the projected ray line segment defined between two facets intersects a zone plane boundary and then piecewise modifying the absorption.
Might be interesting project and definately usefull.

Keep the 4 zone plane coefficients as arbitrary inputs starting with the girdle plane and let people change the plane coefficients to cut the stone arbitrarily and you can project how it cuts the stone fairly easily I believe.
Requires doubling up the absorption coefficients into 2D arrays.

This might be really useful for colored stones like sapphire.

I could do it with my software, but I don''t do the rendering you do, as my stuff was never designed for that, but I did it as an independent cross check on GIA''s ray trace results.

Marty,

re:Might be interesting project and definately usefull.

I see a lot of more important tasks for uniform diamonds.
for example :
1) Finite depth of sharpness
2) 3D HDRI light environment
3) Modeling eye resolution and response
4) Model of Psycho Physiological color human appearance
5) Stereo Vision
6) Color space with infinite Brightness
7) Objective color grading system
a lot of other tasks

re: The simplest would be a two zone stone

Without instrument to measure exact shape and position such zones in Rough, such software is just TOY.

Sorry, I am not interesting to do Toys

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/3/2008 3:36:34 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/3/2008 2:27:36 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/3/2008 10:53:15 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/2/2008 8:24:16 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Thanks Sergey,

So in this case cutting the stone to a shape with a shorter ray path could reduce the amount of orangy brown and gain a better pink colour?

So a cushion or radiant would not be the best choice?

As I remeber the DiamCalc ColourPro software can caluculate the average ray trace and a scatter plot of face up colour in a 2D graph showing the likely grade range for each virtual facet?

yes. See round cut( same spectrum, same weight )

Sergey Have you tried to model zoning yet..

The simplest would be a two zone stone, each zone with its separate absorption characteristic.

It is a relatively straight forward software problem, but still a pain in the neck, checking to see if the projected ray line segment defined between two facets intersects a zone plane boundary and then piecewise modifying the absorption.
Might be interesting project and definately usefull.

Keep the 4 zone plane coefficients as arbitrary inputs starting with the girdle plane and let people change the plane coefficients to cut the stone arbitrarily and you can project how it cuts the stone fairly easily I believe.
Requires doubling up the absorption coefficients into 2D arrays.

This might be really useful for colored stones like sapphire.

I could do it with my software, but I don''t do the rendering you do, as my stuff was never designed for that, but I did it as an independent cross check on GIA''s ray trace results.

Marty,

re:Might be interesting project and definately usefull.

I see a lot of more important tasks for uniform diamonds.
for example :
1) Finite depth of sharpness
2) 3D HDRI light environment
3) Modeling eye resolution and response
4) Model of Psycho Physiological color human appearance
5) Stereo Vision
6) Color space with infinite Brightness
7) Objective color grading system
a lot of other tasks

re: The simplest would be a two zone stone

Without instrument to measure exact shape and position such zones in Rough, such software is just TOY.

Sorry, I am not interesting to do Toys

Sorry, Sergey that you feel it would be a toy.

I agree that you have more on your platter that you want to accomplish, most ALL of which depend on the ASSUMPTION of a homogeneous medium, which may ONLY apply to colorless stones or homogeneous synthetics, but colored diamonds are usually zoned AS well as included, both of which effect the perception and presentation of color. So this TOY eventually has to be done. Heck you (and all of us) are already basing all the theoretical work on errored measurement anyway and not "EXACT shape and position".

So be sure to make it abundantly clear, that all your work pertains to homogeneous mediums that may not exist.

Forgive my sarcasm, but I don''t think it would be a toy, as you put it.

End of Garrys discussion, as you basically said it couldn''t be done or would be worthless, and I say that you can''t make judgements entirely on a homogeneous medium.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/1/2008 1:10:26 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Marty it is also possible that IDEx closed the Forum because they did not like the tone and how it reflected on them.

At JCK in Vegas Edahn asked me why I stopped posting there, and asked if i would again. i said that there was no respect there anymore. He promised to try to do something about it - so I said i would come back on if he did.

Unfortunately a couple of other Assuies got into a slanging match, that I was involved in also, as well as a few anon posters who were very rude. So I fully expect they were just sick and tired of it. That thread was turning into a legal case too and involved personal abuse of another journalist doing what seems to me to be a good job.

(I would add that your posts seemed to have been more polite - a far better way to achieve the goal of outing GIA and the certifigate issue, which really should be a lanced boil by now).

Hmm, sounds to me like they needed a good moderator. I think few realize what a treasure we have here in Pricescope!

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi Wink, missing you

They did not even attempt moderation, which is why it was often very unpleasant.


Marty what Sergey means is there is great difficulty simply recording the spectrum and ray length / thickness of any diamond - rough, and especially polished.

Your SAS for example can give information useful for identification, but it can not provide data that would be useful for what Sergey showed here. Colour banding is just another problem, but expert cutters together with scientists can solve these issues on a case by case basis when they are using DiamCalc Colour Pro

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/3/2008 8:12:05 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Hi Wink, missing you

They did not even attempt moderation, which is why it was often very unpleasant.


Marty what Sergey means is there is great difficulty simply recording the spectrum and ray length / thickness of any diamond - rough, and especially polished.

Your SAS for example can give information useful for identification, but it can not provide data that would be useful for what Sergey showed here. Colour banding is just another problem, but expert cutters together with scientists can solve these issues on a case by case basis when they are using DiamCalc Colour Pro

Wrong Garry.. What you need is information along a known path length, such as in a mackle, and then you have the correct information.

RE: "Colour banding is just another problem, but expert cutters together with scientists can solve these issues on a case by case basis when they are using DiamCalc Colour Pro " Sounds like a sales pitch there Garry, when Sergey say he doesn''t attempt to handle the color zi=oning problem at all.

It is "not just another problem", it may be the most serious assumption in certain colors, the lack of zoning.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/3/2008 5:44:29 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/3/2008 3:36:34 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 7/3/2008 2:27:36 PM
Author: adamasgem

Marty,

re:Might be interesting project and definately usefull.

I see a lot of more important tasks for uniform diamonds.
for example :
1) Finite depth of sharpness
2) 3D HDRI light environment
3) Modeling eye resolution and response
4) Model of Psycho Physiological color human appearance
5) Stereo Vision
6) Color space with infinite Brightness
7) Objective color grading system
a lot of other tasks

re: The simplest would be a two zone stone

Without instrument to measure exact shape and position such zones in Rough, such software is just TOY.

Sorry, I am not interesting to do Toys

Sorry, Sergey that you feel it would be a toy.

I agree that you have more on your platter that you want to accomplish, most ALL of which depend on the ASSUMPTION of a homogeneous medium, which may ONLY apply to colorless stones or homogeneous synthetics, but colored diamonds are usually zoned AS well as included, both of which effect the perception and presentation of color. So this TOY eventually has to be done. Heck you (and all of us) are already basing all the theoretical work on errored measurement anyway and not ''EXACT shape and position''.

So be sure to make it abundantly clear, that all your work pertains to homogeneous mediums that may not exist.

Forgive my sarcasm, but I don''t think it would be a toy, as you put it.

End of Garrys discussion, as you basically said it couldn''t be done or would be worthless, and I say that you can''t make judgements entirely on a homogeneous medium.

.

Marty,

re:which may ONLY apply to colorless stones or homogeneous synthetics, but colored diamonds are usually zoned AS well as included, both of which effect the perception and presentation of color

All HTHP synthetics (what I saw )Have HUGE color zoning. Please show me any HTHP color rough without color zoning

I saw few natural rough with REAL color zoning. Overwhelming majority natural yellow rough has not essential color zoning


How did you receive your conclusion?

Very often people confuse color zoning with color distribution. ( for example Any ideal yellow octahedron have more color in corners without ANY color zoning)

re:ASSUMPTION of a homogeneous medium


We have methodic to test uniformity color in rough.( we calculate absorption spectrum for different directions)

 

[Serg]

re:Forgive my sarcasm, but I don''t think it would be a toy, as you put it.

Marty,

Sorry, I need repeat

"Without instrument to measure exact shape and position such zones in Rough, such software is just TOY."

Do you have such instrument?

( this task is more complex than X-ray)

If anybody sell such instrument we will add color zoning to our software( It is not problem for us. We even added inclusions)

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 1:50:20 AM
Author: Serg


Marty,

re:which may ONLY apply to colorless stones or homogeneous synthetics, but colored diamonds are usually zoned AS well as included, both of which effect the perception and presentation of color

All HTHP synthetics (what I saw )Have HUGE color zoning. Please show me any HTHP color rough without color zoning

I saw few natural rough with REAL color zoning. Overwhelming majority natural yellow rough has not essential color zoningSorry Serge, when I was referring to homogeneous synthetics I was thinking about colored stones and not necessarily diamonds. You are right, the cubo octohedral growth of HPHT synthetic diamond will typically be banded, I don't know about CVD.




How did you receive your conclusion? ????? Translation please

Very often people confuse color zoning with color distribution. ( for example Any ideal yellow octahedron have more color in corners without ANY color zoning)

I'm talking about physical zoning and not perceived color concentration

re:ASSUMPTION of a homogeneous medium

We have methodic to test uniformity color in rough.( we calculate absorption spectrum for different directions)

Think of a spherical piece of rough with a spherical color zone in the center, your theory doesn't work, sorry

It would also be nice if Garry and you moved this topic to another thread, like I asked before, pretty please. I'd be happy to discuss it there. PS I have nothing but the utmost respect for what you have been able to do in yur software, but no one is truely there yet, but you have the best shot at producing meaningful answers.

 

[Serg]

re:Think of a spherical piece of rough with a spherical color zone in the center, your theory doesn''t work, sorry

We use small window to take spectrum, we do not need use main diameter

BTW. What is chance to find ''a spherical piece of rough with a spherical color zone in the center''?

Again "Without instrument to measure exact shape and position such zones in Rough, such software is just TOY."

Do you have such instrument?

 

[strmrdr]

Getting back to the topic of this thread.
Marty can you post a simple summery of what has happened to date with the bribery issue starting at the beginning?
who, what, where, when and why with a time line.
Not everyone is up to date on this issue.
Thanks!

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/4/2008 9:17:20 AM
Author: strmrdr
Getting back to the topic of this thread.
Marty can you post a simple summery of what has happened to date with the bribery issue starting at the beginning?
who, what, where, when and why with a time line.
Not everyone is up to date on this issue.
Thanks!

Yea..., what happened after the court ordered GIA to ''sing''?

Are they vocal? or still strep?

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 4:56:57 AM
Author: Serg
re:Think of a spherical piece of rough with a spherical color zone in the center, your theory doesn''t work, sorry

We use small window to take spectrum, we do not need use main diameter
Ideally (pardon the pun) you need multiple parallel windows to do what you say you were doing, but you may or may not hit a color zone

BTW. What is chance to find ''a spherical piece of rough with a spherical color zone in the center''?
Sergey, I was giving an theoretical example to get you thinking.
How about a Dodecahedron for close enough for government work.


Again ''Without instrument to measure exact shape and position such zones in Rough, such software is just TOY.''

Do you have such instrument? No, I don''t have one, but I think the problem is solvable, akin to inclusion mapping.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 9:17:20 AM
Author: strmrdr
Getting back to the topic of this thread.
Marty can you post a simple summery of what has happened to date with the bribery issue starting at the beginning?
who, what, where, when and why with a time line.
Not everyone is up to date on this issue.
Thanks!

I''ll try to see what historical links are out there. As to exactly when it started, only the bribers know, but we suspect this goes back to the mid 90''s in fancy colored diamonds and the rule of King Bill and extended to passing through spoofed HPHT stones based on flawed thinking. To my recollection, some "bribery" whispers appeared on the street around 2002 and the Max Pincione case was around 2004-2005 time frame when it blew publically. Destino took over as Bill Boss, Tom Y was fired along with at least four possible scapegoats and then King BIlly Boy was finally gone. Around 2005 GIA paid off Pincione and the case against the alleged bribers disappeared, GIA hired a high end cover-up lawyer (who in-house managed a high profile scandal MCI/Worldcom) and presented all their evidence to the Feds who have apparently sat on it. In 2005-2006 it looks like they spent close to 8 to 9 million on this exercise.

GIA refuses to do anything like naming the firms (or people) they banned from submitting stones (what a joke), i.e. the bribers around 2005, and there were stories about it in the Wall Street Journal by Ann Zimmerman and in the trade press (Rap, National, Modern, JCK, etc), and then all quite.

Fortunately the RICO statues of limitations have NOT RUN OUT YET.

Then the current Stafford lawsuit in 2006-2008 where in 2008 GIA was subpeoned to produce in a deposition relevant documenation regarding whether Julius Kleins (JKD) privileges to submit stones had been revoked, they refused on the half-assed grounds of privileged business records and now are under a court order to again produce same for an incamera review by the judge. That is where is currently stands other than JKD appealing the judicial order for GIA to produce the documentation and also asking for an injunction preventing GIA from delivering same, because they would be "highly prejudical" against JKD (by probably showing previous tendency to flaunt the law) in another Federal Case involving a "missing" $1.5 million dollar pink diamond and the destruction of evidence. JKD people (interlocking directorates and ownership of the Vivid Collection) were named in the original Max Pincione case (see http://www.diamonds.net/news/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=13638 )

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 10:09:49 AM
Author: DiaGem
Yea..., what happened after the court ordered GIA to ''sing''?

Are they vocal? or still strep?

I think the current case of strep throat will soon turn into a lingering case of hemmoroids.

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/4/2008 11:34:25 AM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/4/2008 9:17:20 AM
Author: strmrdr
Getting back to the topic of this thread.
Marty can you post a simple summery of what has happened to date with the bribery issue starting at the beginning?
who, what, where, when and why with a time line.
Not everyone is up to date on this issue.
Thanks!

I''ll try to see what historical links are out there. As to exactly when it started, only the bribers know, but we suspect this goes back to the mid 90''s in fancy colored diamonds and the rule of King Bill and extended to passing through spoofed HPHT stones based on flawed thinking. To my recollection, some ''bribery'' whispers appeared on the street around 2002 and the Max Pincione case was around 2004-2005 time frame when it blew publically. Destino took over as Bill Boss, Tom Y was fired along with at least four possible scapegoats and then King BIlly Boy was finally gone. Around 2005 GIA paid off Pincione and the case against the alleged bribers disappeared, GIA hired a high end cover-up lawyer (who in-house managed a high profile scandal MCI/Worldcom) and presented all their evidence to the Feds who have apparently sat on it. In 2005-2006 it looks like they spent close to 8 to 9 million on this exercise.

GIA refuses to do anything like naming the firms (or people) they banned from submitting stones (what a joke), i.e. the bribers around 2005, and there were stories about it in the Wall Street Journal by Ann Zimmerman and in the trade press (Rap, National, Modern, JCK, etc), and then all quite.

Fortunately the RICO statues of limitations have NOT RUN OUT YET.

Then the current Stafford lawsuit in 2006-2008 where in 2008 GIA was subpeoned to produce in a deposition relevant documenation regarding whether Julius Kleins (JKD) privileges to submit stones had been revoked, they refused on the half-assed grounds of privileged business records and now are under a court order to again produce same for an incamera review by the judge. That is where is currently stands other than JKD appealing the judicial order for GIA to produce the documentation and also asking for an injunction preventing GIA from delivering same, because they would be ''highly prejudical'' against JKD (by probably showing previous tendency to flaunt the law) in another Federal Case involving a ''missing'' $1.5 million dollar pink diamond and the destruction of evidence. JKD people (interlocking directorates and ownership of the Vivid Collection) were named in the original Max Pincione case (see http://www.diamonds.net/news/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=13638 )

So far to my understanding is that only Spector/Vivid pulled the fire so it focuses only on them.....

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 11:54:33 AM
Author: DiaGem
So far to my understanding is that only Spector/Vivid pulled the fire so it focuses only on them.....

read http://www.jckonline.com/blog/870000287/post/640026264.html regarding who owned Vivid

http://www.jckonline.com/article/CA6516123.html?q=vivid+collection

http://www.diamondintelligence.com/magazine/magazine.asp?id=6398

That is what corporations are for, to hide ownership with interlocking directorates and various partners, X different entities operating out of Y's same desk.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/4/2008 11:03:53 AM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/4/2008 4:56:57 AM
Author: Serg
re:Think of a spherical piece of rough with a spherical color zone in the center, your theory doesn''t work, sorry

We use small window to take spectrum, we do not need use main diameter
Ideally (pardon the pun) you need multiple parallel windows to do what you say you were doing, but you may or may not hit a color zone

BTW. What is chance to find ''a spherical piece of rough with a spherical color zone in the center''?
Sergey, I was giving an theoretical example to get you thinking.
How about a Dodecahedron for close enough for government work.


Again ''Without instrument to measure exact shape and position such zones in Rough, such software is just TOY.''

Do you have such instrument? No, I don''t have one, but I think the problem is solvable, akin to inclusion mapping.

re:Ideally (pardon the pun) you need multiple parallel windows

We can work with unparallel windows

re: No, I don''t have one, but I think the problem is solvable, akin to inclusion mapping.

too complex
1) Non-convex AND FUSSY boundary
2)Again, you need find absorption spectrums for color zoning and for “normal” zone . It is "X-ray type task"

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 12:55:03 PM
Author: Serg

re:Ideally (pardon the pun) you need multiple parallel windows

We can work with unparallel windows

Of course you can, I said "ideally", but you have to make compensations

re: No, I don''t have one, but I think the problem is solvable, akin to inclusion mapping.

too complex
1) Non-convex AND FUSSY boundary

2)Again, you need find absorption spectrums for color zoning and for “normal” zone . It is ''X-ray type task''

I agree very very complex, and fuzzy boundaries, but don''t you think if you are selling a methodology for homogeneous medium (which may not exist in colored diamonds) that you should attempt to do a first order "simplistic" model to see the possible effects. That is all I am saying. In fact by doing that, you can possibly determine accuracy requirements for the "x-ray" scanner.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/4/2008 2:48:42 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/4/2008 12:55:03 PM
Author: Serg

re:Ideally (pardon the pun) you need multiple parallel windows

We can work with unparallel windows

Of course you can, I said 'ideally', but you have to make compensations

re: No, I don't have one, but I think the problem is solvable, akin to inclusion mapping.

too complex
1) Non-convex AND FUZZY boundary



2)Again, you need find absorption spectrums for color zoning and for “normal” zone . It is 'X-ray type task'

I agree very very complex, and fuzzy boundaries, but don't you think if you are selling a methodology for homogeneous medium (which may not exist in colored diamonds) that you should attempt to do a first order 'simplistic' model to see the possible effects. That is all I am saying. In fact by doing that, you can possibly determine accuracy requirements for the 'x-ray' scanner.

re:if you are selling a methodology for homogeneous medium (which may not exist in colored diamonds) that you should attempt to do a first order 'simplistic' model to see the possible effects


Of course we did verification our model before "selling a technology".
Our task improve color in fancy color diamonds. Our model is working fine for MOST yellow diamonds( may be for other color too)

Color zoning is minor issue for our task improve color by cut optimization. We have much more important tasks
There are a lot tasks. we do most important, what can give best profit to our clients.
Life is too short to spend it for Toys.
Just it
For example, I prefer spend my time to develop objective grading system for color fancy diamonds

BTW. In 8th 9:00am July Mr. Janak Mistry will do open report( update) in HRD about our color technology
Yurii and I will come too

 

[adamasgem]

Sergey.. Defects which effect absorption, are also not necessarily uniformly distributed. We model them as homogeneous becuase that is the best we can do unless we have a super computor where we could model it on a microscopic level.

 

[Serg]

Date: 7/4/2008 3:10:23 PM
Author: adamasgem
Sergey.. Defects which effect absorption, are also not necessarily uniformly distributed. We model them as homogeneous becuase that is the best we can do unless we have a super computor where we could model it on a microscopic level.

Marty, speed of computer is not MAIN reason why we use uniform model

reasons:
1) Result is good enough
2) We can not receive correct information about color on microscopic level for real rough

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/4/2008 12:32:40 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/4/2008 11:54:33 AM
Author: DiaGem
So far to my understanding is that only Spector/Vivid pulled the fire so it focuses only on them.....

read http://www.jckonline.com/blog/870000287/post/640026264.html regarding who owned Vivid

http://www.jckonline.com/article/CA6516123.html?q=vivid+collection

http://www.diamondintelligence.com/magazine/magazine.asp?id=6398

That is what corporations are for, to hide ownership with interlocking directorates and various partners, X different entities operating out of Y''s same desk.

JKD is new to me...

, Leviev I knew bought in Vivid towards the very end..., but I know for a fact that once this scandal broke out..., Leviev threw himself out of the Company...., I wonder where the old Vivid stock ended up at

?

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 4:09:53 PM
Author: DiaGem
JKD is new to me...

, Leviev I knew bought in Vivid towards the very end..., but I know for a fact that once this scandal broke out..., Leviev threw himself out of the Company...., I wonder where the old Vivid stock ended up at

?

Interesting comment about Leviev, I wonder if he knew what was going on, if in fact anything.

Seems to me if he didn''t and there was, that would wind up being a problem for the "partners". Wasn''t there talk of one of the bribers in hiding?

As to the stones, who really knows whose safe they are in. You can be sure that all of Vivids assets are safely out of reach of any one who wants to sue, thanks in part to GIA and their payoff of Pincione. Max should have let it go to trial, that is if he had the money. You can see with the Stafford case how they (JKD and GIA) paper the thing to death apparently trying to cover-up things with legal mumbo-jumbo and cover your ass appeals and injunctions all over answering a simple question.

Wonder they both haven''t just pleaded the 5th ammendment against self incrimination and be done with it, which it certainly sounds close enough to.


What I wonder is, how many of the sold Vivid stones had bribed paper ? They closed shop rather quickly, so any jeweler who bought from them and has a client demanding money back for fraud is SOL.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/2/2008 5:49:29 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Dear Marty,

I think this is an important issue because as I recollect, the issue with the Lopez stone was that it changed hue after it was sold back from the broken Lopez relationship - after being recut and regraded. The new hue was a more pure / less orangy brown pink.

In Chaim''s relevant article it was claimed that a fancy coloured diamond could not be recut to attain a different colour grade; and therefore GIA must have been bribed.

But it seems possible (although not a cast iron case) that the hue could be changed from ray path lengthening.

Garry..
this is an email I got from a NYC fancy colored diamond dealer in the know, regarding your comments on the Lopez Pink..

I think his view deserves an airing, and I''m not agreeing you are making excuses for GIA, but that is what it seems to him.

******************
"Marty i have used the very best colored diamonds cutters in the world and have seen what they have done to pink diamonds but here is a very good example of what i am speaking about.

You take a yellow diamond that is a round that has a grade of fancy yellow. You re cut it to a radiant and over 90% of the time you will have a yellow with a darker tone and will get a intense no problem. The shift in tone comes
from cutting the diamond at correct angles into a radiant to improve the tone of yellow.

Saturation as you know has to do with the purity of color i want to know ow in the hell you remove grey or brown from a
diamond that NO one else can do unless you HPHT the diamond with using suitable material. I am not kidding if Gary can do this he is the ONLY one in the world to figure how to make a brown pink diamond have more saturation in after re cutting to call it a fancy pink.

I agree with you ,about making a diamond smaller you may have a better looking diamond but you still are not removing the brown and may have to loose up to 70% of the weight to have any effect at all.

They BRIBED Marty and that how they did it on many many diamonds .
I believe Gary is an EXCUSE board for the bribers and GIA and does not know what the hell he is talking about. Again if ANYONE has the magic to do this we can
make millions but it ALL B*** S**T."
************************


.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 7/4/2008 6:33:32 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/2/2008 5:49:29 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Dear Marty,

I think this is an important issue because as I recollect, the issue with the Lopez stone was that it changed hue after it was sold back from the broken Lopez relationship - after being recut and regraded. The new hue was a more pure / less orangy brown pink.

In Chaim''s relevant article it was claimed that a fancy coloured diamond could not be recut to attain a different colour grade; and therefore GIA must have been bribed.

But it seems possible (although not a cast iron case) that the hue could be changed from ray path lengthening.

Garry..
this is an email I got from a NYC fancy colored diamond dealer in the know, regarding your comments on the Lopez Pink..

I think his view deserves an airing, and I''m not agreeing you are making excuses for GIA, but that is what it seems to him.

******************
''Marty i have used the very best colored diamonds cutters in the world and have seen what they have done to pink diamonds but here is a very good example of what i am speaking about.

You take a yellow diamond that is a round that has a grade of fancy yellow. You re cut it to a radiant and over 90% of the time you will have a yellow with a darker tone and will get a intense no problem. The shift in tone comes
from cutting the diamond at correct angles into a radiant to improve the tone of yellow.

Saturation as you know has to do with the purity of color i want to know ow in the hell you remove grey or brown from a
diamond that NO one else can do unless you HPHT the diamond with using suitable material. I am not kidding if Gary can do this he is the ONLY one in the world to figure how to make a brown pink diamond have more saturation in after re cutting to call it a fancy pink.

I agree with you ,about making a diamond smaller you may have a better looking diamond but you still are not removing the brown and may have to loose up to 70% of the weight to have any effect at all.

They BRIBED Marty and that how they did it on many many diamonds .
I believe Gary is an EXCUSE board for the bribers and GIA and does not know what the hell he is talking about. Again if ANYONE has the magic to do this we can
make millions but it ALL B*** S**T.''
************************



.

Dear Marty,
I suggest you send the 2 examples Sergey posted to show that the differential absorption of various frequencies can indeed result in the changes of reducing the brown. Of course we usually want to lengthen the ray path, not shorten it.

I am sure you understand this well enough to explain to your friend.
As for being an excuse for the GIA board, it might be nice to have on my resume''? But i doubt it is something I am known for.
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/50/1/Articles.aspx?a=ViewArticle&ArticleID=50&Page=1 certainly does not paint me as an ardent GIA supporter.

But i am interested in balance and fairness, and when the side I support raises arguements that might not be valid I will question them too.

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/4/2008 9:22:08 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 7/4/2008 6:33:32 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 7/2/2008 5:49:29 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Dear Marty,

I think this is an important issue because as I recollect, the issue with the Lopez stone was that it changed hue after it was sold back from the broken Lopez relationship - after being recut and regraded. The new hue was a more pure / less orangy brown pink.

In Chaim''s relevant article it was claimed that a fancy coloured diamond could not be recut to attain a different colour grade; and therefore GIA must have been bribed.

But it seems possible (although not a cast iron case) that the hue could be changed from ray path lengthening.

Garry..
this is an email I got from a NYC fancy colored diamond dealer in the know, regarding your comments on the Lopez Pink..

I think his view deserves an airing, and I''m not agreeing you are making excuses for GIA, but that is what it seems to him.

******************
''Marty i have used the very best colored diamonds cutters in the world and have seen what they have done to pink diamonds but here is a very good example of what i am speaking about.

You take a yellow diamond that is a round that has a grade of fancy yellow. You re cut it to a radiant and over 90% of the time you will have a yellow with a darker tone and will get a intense no problem. The shift in tone comes
from cutting the diamond at correct angles into a radiant to improve the tone of yellow.

Saturation as you know has to do with the purity of color i want to know ow in the hell you remove grey or brown from a
diamond that NO one else can do unless you HPHT the diamond with using suitable material. I am not kidding if Gary can do this he is the ONLY one in the world to figure how to make a brown pink diamond have more saturation in after re cutting to call it a fancy pink.

Marty..., I am sure you know (and so should your friend IF he cuts or has experience with many fancy colored Diamonds) that no one has the ability to take a certain color or over-tone out of the Diamond material itself...., what an experienced cutter''s ability is: to change the balance of the color tones which exist in the material and attempt to bring out the important and rare one....

I agree with you ,about making a diamond smaller you may have a better looking diamond but you still are not removing the brown and may have to loose up to 70% of the weight to have any effect at all.

70%???? I have seen cutters produce better looking Diamonds by just loosing a few (1-5) %''s..., you can even change the appearance of the brownish overtone effects by simply heating the Diamond on the wheel...

They BRIBED Marty and that how they did it on many many diamonds .
I believe Gary is an EXCUSE board for the bribers and GIA and does not know what the hell he is talking about. Again if ANYONE has the magic to do this we can
make millions but it ALL B*** S**T.''
************************

Not every one bribed....,
I can attest to the fact that during these years I submitted a slightly (over) five carat Diamond to the GIA for the attempt to receive a (clean) fancy pink grade..., the Diamond had a tiny touch of ''brown'' tone mixed with the obvious pink color when looking at the profile.

The first attempt came back from the GIA as a fancy brownish pink

, I requested a color re-check and to my surprise

it came back a clean pink

! I still keep both copies of the report to remind me how human intervention has the naive ability to change things!!!




.

Dear Marty,
I suggest you send the 2 examples Sergey posted to show that the differential absorption of various frequencies can indeed result in the changes of reducing the brown. Of course we usually want to lengthen the ray path, not shorten it.

I am sure you understand this well enough to explain to your friend.
As for being an excuse for the GIA board, it might be nice to have on my resume''? But i doubt it is something I am known for.
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/50/1/Articles.aspx?a=ViewArticle&ArticleID=50&Page=1 certainly does not paint me as an ardent GIA supporter.

But i am interested in balance and fairness, and when the side I support raises arguements that might not be valid I will question them too.

 

[Serg]

re:Marty..., I am sure you know (and so should your friend IF he cuts or has experience with many fancy colored Diamonds) that no one has the ability to take a certain color or over-tone out of the Diamond material itself...., what an experienced cutter''s ability is: to change the balance of the color tones which exist in the material and attempt to bring out the important and rare one....


Diagem,
re: "no one has the ability to take a certain color or over-tone out of the Diamond material itself"

what do you mean?

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/5/2008 4:37:41 AM
Author: Serg
re:Marty..., I am sure you know (and so should your friend IF he cuts or has experience with many fancy colored Diamonds) that no one has the ability to take a certain color or over-tone out of the Diamond material itself...., what an experienced cutter''s ability is: to change the balance of the color tones which exist in the material and attempt to bring out the important and rare one....


Diagem,
re: ''no one has the ability to take a certain color or over-tone out of the Diamond material itself''

what do you mean?

Can you take nitrogen out of the yellow Diamond material? Is it possible to make a slightly yellow tinted Diamond white by cutting it in certain facet degrees?

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 7/4/2008 9:22:08 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Dear Marty,
I suggest you send the 2 examples Sergey posted to show that the differential absorption of various frequencies can indeed result in the changes of reducing the brown.

Garry That is the red herring yellow analysis that I brought up before about ZONING in Pinks.
First of all I understand that the comments I posted were from someone who had seen the original stone. And we are talking about REMOVING he brown hue (caused by zoning) with minimal weight loss.

Of course we usually want to lengthen the ray path, not shorten it. This is Sergeys yellow analysis about concentrating the color in a homogeneous medium that I agree with 100%.

I am sure you understand this well enough to explain to your friend.

I have, and I also tried to explain to you ansd Sergey why it is not valid. My software is slow and does foreware montecarlo and can do the absorption problem, but without the rendering but I can still calculate the statistics of AVERAGE absorption, which may convince Sergey of the importance of the little "TOY" experimant he was ridiculing as of minimal importance, but it certainly applies to larger and rarer fancy colors, like pinks.

HPHT experiments have shown that type IIa BROWN coloration was due to CLUSTERED VACANCIES and that HPHT broke these up, and that in brownish PINKS, I believe it it typically observed that the coloraton is in banded zones. That IS why I asked if Sergey could modify his software, I guess I''ll have to do it first to light the appropriate fire.

As for being an excuse for the GIA board, it might be nice to have on my resume''? But i doubt it is something I am known for. I disagreed with my friend on his take on you there, about you being not quite as large a thumbtack on the seat of GIA that I am.
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/50/1/Articles.aspx?a=ViewArticle&ArticleID=50&Page=1 certainly does not paint me as an ardent GIA supporter.

But i am interested in balance and fairness, and when the side I support raises arguements that might not be valid I will question them too.

Garry, it isn''t a political issue, it is the age old arguement between management and technical that brought about things like the Challenger disaster (or possibly 9/11 if they had take a look at the pilot training and didn''t have the management imposed brick wall) when management didin''t listen. Budgets and priorities, shoot the engineer to get the product out the door. The Microsoft syndrome, we''ll solve those problems in Rev 1, they will never know.