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Idealscope image advice please

Rob Jackson

Rob Jackson

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
12
DC54B5E3-3304-43B5-BA69-0810E0497A0A.jpeg 8172CD43-9EF9-4E92-8956-0D7072FB4ED8.jpeg Hello all,

I am hunting for a diamond for an engagement ring and have focused on the best quality I can get for my money.

I think I have settled on this one -

Price Per Carat
£6,516
Carat Weight
0.60
Shape
Round
Cut
Ideal
Colour
D
Clarity
FL
Length/Width Ratio
1.01
Depth %
59.0%
Table %
59.0%
Polish
Excellent
Symmetry
Excellent
Girdle
Medium
Culet
None
Fluorescence
None
Measurements
5.57 x 5.52 x 3.27 mm

However after further research it is apparent that there is more to is than a triple Exc GIA.

I have input all of the dimensions into a calculator online which has ‘graded’ the light output as a 1.1 which I believe is good.

I asked for idealscope pictures and have the two below. The only element of this that concerns me is that the symmetry looks out? (At c6-7 o’clock on the images).

Would this effect the way the diamond looks? I would like it as perfect as possible and I appreciate it is somewhat subjective!

Any guidance would be warmly welcomed!

Thank you in advance
 
Others will chime in soon but sometimes the symmetry issue comes up when the stone is a little tilted when they are using the idealscope or aset.

I’m no expert but hopefully that helps until others come in.
 
KirstLWA said:
Others will chime in soon but sometimes the symmetry issue comes up when the stone is a little tilted when they are using the idealscope or aset.

I’m no expert but hopefully that helps until others come in.
Click to expand...

That’s helpful thank you KirstLWA. It looks okay on paper, that just suprised me when it arrived!

How do the colours look to you?

I am seeing plenty of Red and very little white which I believe is pleasing!
 
Rob Jackson said:
DC54B5E3-3304-43B5-BA69-0810E0497A0A.jpeg 8172CD43-9EF9-4E92-8956-0D7072FB4ED8.jpeg Hello all,

I am hunting for a diamond for an engagement ring and have focused on the best quality I can get for my money.

I think I have settled on this one -

Price Per Carat
£6,516
Carat Weight
0.60
Shape
Round
Cut
Ideal
Colour
D
Clarity
FL
Length/Width Ratio
1.01
Depth %
59.0%
Table %
59.0%
Polish
Excellent
Symmetry
Excellent
Girdle
Medium
Culet
None
Fluorescence
None
Measurements
5.57 x 5.52 x 3.27 mm

However after further research it is apparent that there is more to is than a triple Exc GIA.

I have input all of the dimensions into a calculator online which has ‘graded’ the light output as a 1.1 which I believe is good.

I asked for idealscope pictures and have the two below. The only element of this that concerns me is that the symmetry looks out? (At c6-7 o’clock on the images).

Would this effect the way the diamond looks? I would like it as perfect as possible and I appreciate it is somewhat subjective!

Any guidance would be warmly welcomed!

Thank you in advance
Click to expand...

Hi! :)

Again I am no expert and I cannot comment on the idealscope unfortunately - it also looks like that second picture is an ASET picture? Also could you tell us the other dimensions of the diamond like the crown angle and pavillion angle? When you say calculator are you talking about the HCA score?

Also the price is in pounds and you managed to get an idealscope picture??? Tell me your secrets!!! Especially as you managed to get an ASET picture!!! How?! :D

Best,
Lydia.
 
flyingpig said:
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD10349659?click_id=257349124

The stone is too shallow with 31.5 CA.
The images are poorly taken. The scopes are too close to the diamond
Consider 6:30 mostly dark and dead from a normal viewing distance and condition.
Click to expand...

Okay I'm insanely curious @flyingpig, how did you know it's THIS diamond??? Like how?! I cannot see that @Rob Jackson posted a GIA number? Wow it's like magical mystical powers.... Also your assessment of the pictures is amazing, wow. I would never have known.

Also @Rob Jackson - ouch. Yeah that's a way too shallow crown angle. Look how deceiving images can be! I would have thought all that red was good too....

Okay so, I guess the next question is, as you're not going to get this stone, are you SURE you want D and Flawless??? Sure? You could get some beautiful colourless and completely eye-clean diamonds that have AMAZING cut and look waaaaay better - in fact stunning, perfect, DESPITE their 'flaws', compared to how this one would ever have looked!!! They will be perfect in ways beyond just the rough's quality. And bearing in mind I think inclusions are graded only to a certain loupe magnification... ?x10 or x20, can't remember. Magnify them more and they'll have inclusions. Sorry, I know I'm being a bit of a devil about it but I'm just hoping that maybe you could generate some wiggle room depending on your perspective and you may be pleasantly surprised with how awesome a diamond you can get. :)

Is it working? :twisted:

Regardless - whether you want to stay with D, FL or do have some further wiggle room, tell us your budget and perhaps we can work on finding a better option for you. :)

Best,
Lydia.
 
Lykame said:
Okay I'm insanely curious @flyingpig, how did you know it's THIS diamond??? Like how?! I cannot see that @Rob Jackson posted a GIA number? Wow it's like magical mystical powers.... Also your assessment of the pictures is amazing, wow. I would never have known.
Click to expand...
The OP may not want to share the GIA report number or vendor's SKU number. In many cases, I do not share the link if it is not provided by the OP. . However, in this case, it was too obvious. The information provided is a copy/paste from the BN diamond comparison chart. In addition, even without knowing the stone is available from BN, with the crown, depth, polish, symmetry, carat, color, clarity information, it is rather easy.

I shared the link to provide the OP the most complete answer and, more importantly, the stone is on hold.
 
flyingpig said:
The OP may not want to share the GIA report number or vendor's SKU number. In many cases, I do not share the link if it is not provided by the OP. . However, in this case, it was too obvious. The information provided is a copy/paste from the BN diamond comparison chart. In addition, even without knowing the stone is available from BN, with the crown, depth, polish, symmetry, carat, color, clarity information, it is rather easy.

I shared the link to provide the OP the most complete answer and, more importantly, the stone is on hold.
Click to expand...

I guess with experience you recognise the forms different vendors use!!! I was imagining either a potentially tedious process of trying to use the stone's quite specific characteristics to hunt for it through different vendors... even despite those stone's specific characteristics that seemed a bit of a large search...! Regardless - still impressed, and I think personally considering the angles of that stone it was right to be completely transparent with the OP. :)
 
You can do better on cut. You have a very low crown angle combined with a 59 table and that makes the stone look pretty flat topped.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)
 
Hi everyone!

Thanks for the feedback I really appreciate it. I didn’t post the link because I was under the impression I couldn’t be found as it is provisionally sold to me.

Now I am more confused than ever!

All the angles, depths etc appear to be within guidines online.

I’ve completed the HCA calculation and it appears to be very good at 1.1 and the pictures looked okay!

My budget is variable. This stone is approx £4K (GBP) and I had in my head that I wanted as flawless as possible for my (ready to vomit?) flawless partner. Yuk right?! I could stretch to more for the right item..

Totally open to ideas, was not overly fussed about size I just want it to look as great as possible, however clearly, bigger is always a plus.

If anyone has any pointers for a better option I am all ears and thank you again for feedback
 
diamondseeker2006 said:
You can do better on cut. You have a very low crown angle combined with a 59 table and that makes the stone look pretty flat topped.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)
Click to expand...

Just saw this thank you. Am I working on the assumption that the HCA is pretty irrelevant now?

I thought as the 59 table was so close it wouldn’t be too bad of a compromise?
 
If you are really interested in the best possible cut, you might be able to find one with a higher crown angle with a 59 table, but it's just safer and easier to look within the range that is more likely going to result in great images and light return. There's no guarantee the best numbers will result in a perfectly cut stone, but it does usuallly get you into the best cut GIA Ex stones. GIA Ex is a very broad category and some are far better than others. I just don't bother with the HCA due to the fact that stones like this may get a good score, but I wouldn't recommend a flat top stone with larger table. They just are not as attractive from a side view as one with a nice crown.
 
Rob Jackson said:
Hi everyone!

Thanks for the feedback I really appreciate it. I didn’t post the link because I was under the impression I couldn’t be found as it is provisionally sold to me.

Now I am more confused than ever!

All the angles, depths etc appear to be within guidines online.

I’ve completed the HCA calculation and it appears to be very good at 1.1 and the pictures looked okay!

My budget is variable. This stone is approx £4K (GBP) and I had in my head that I wanted as flawless as possible for my (ready to vomit?) flawless partner. Yuk right?! I could stretch to more for the right item..

Totally open to ideas, was not overly fussed about size I just want it to look as great as possible, however clearly, bigger is always a plus.

If anyone has any pointers for a better option I am all ears and thank you again for feedback
Click to expand...

Definitely not ready to vomit, I think that's so sweet.

@diamondseeker2006 has posted some great angles for you to use as a reference point. These angles will work together - unfortunately as you said in your first post you can see that GIA triple excellent isn't everything. Even the HCA tool isn't everything - it can help reject diamonds but once you've found stones that have HCAs of <2 those still need further scrutiny. :)

I'm also from England - how did you get those scope pictures??? Did Bluenile provide them? I'm seriously surprised. I have never been able to find them in England. :(

Let's see if I (or others) can find any diamond options for you. :)
 
6330E7D4-8983-4C5E-9629-F99B87A0D055.jpeg So say I was to find one within those parameters, but slightly smaller, and still a good HCA (for reference) would it be more impactful on a finger, if that is even a statement?!

I did get the pictures from blue nile yes, I just asked them and they said they would check if the vendors had them and forwarded them on to me the same day.

They also forwarded this from another stone.... I immediately ruled it out!
 
P.s. what a great forum!
 
Found it! Looks great... talk about making a tough call tougher!
 
Rob Jackson said:
Thank you

Have you got the link to the site please?

Looks great, but offput by the characteristics though but not sure if you could tell?
Click to expand...

Which characteristics are you put off by? A VS1 should be completely eye clean. So if you were to compare this with a flawless diamond with your eyes you shouldn't be able to tell the difference. So if you put a D FL and a F VS1 together... it would be a challenge to tell. And better cut diamonds also hide inclusions. Ultimately the test will be having a stone in front of you. :)

There are also SI1s that are eye clean but I figured as you were starting from D FL that I might introduce some changes carefully, but it gives you more for your money. Personally to me these kinds of diamonds are 'perfect' but you and your intended are the ones who ultimately need to be happy.

Would you be willing to look at American stones and pay customs?
 
Haha, thank you!

I think I found the mark... circled on the diamond table from a couple of different angles, unless this is dust but I would have thought they wouldn’t be that daft!
 

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Lykame said:
Which characteristics are you put off by? A VS1 should be completely eye clean. So if you were to compare this with a flawless diamond with your eyes you shouldn't be able to tell the difference. So if you put a D FL and a F VS1 together... it would be a challenge to tell. And better cut diamonds also hide inclusions. Ultimately the test will be having a stone in front of you. :)

There are also SI1s that are eye clean but I figured as you were starting from D FL that I might introduce some changes carefully, but it gives you more for your money. Personally to me these kinds of diamonds are 'perfect' but you and your intended are the ones who ultimately need to be happy.

Would you be willing to look at American stones and pay customs?
Click to expand...


Yes I would be more than happy to import. I think BN essentially adds the tax on anyway.

I went to a diamond shop near me a while ago and you’re right, I couldn’t tell even under magnification the differences with VS

I just had the romantic idea of a perfect stone in my head but am I being too much of a perfectionist?!

I am focused on cut above all now, I just want her to know every time she looks at it how much I’ve thought about this.

What ‘compromises’ would you accept and which of the 4C’s are most important (along with angles and table etc)?

It’s jeweller I went to was really helpful but at twice the price!
 
Rob Jackson said:
104D5C98-FAC3-4A4A-80AE-2DA126524E85.jpeg CC5146E4-A03F-4A5A-8AE0-F06DDF457E39.jpeg
Click to expand...

Good eyes! I suspect you wouldn't be able to see it with your eyes in person but it is under the table and I suspect from what you've said it would bother you, so exclude that one. There are surely others. :D
 
Rob Jackson said:
Yes I would be more than happy to import. I think BN essentially adds the tax on anyway.

I went to a diamond shop near me a while ago and you’re right, I couldn’t tell even under magnification the differences with VS

I just had the romantic idea of a perfect stone in my head but am I being too much of a perfectionist?!

I am focused on cut above all now, I just want her to know every time she looks at it how much I’ve thought about this.

What ‘compromises’ would you accept and which of the 4C’s are most important (along with angles and table etc)?

It’s jeweller I went to was really helpful but at twice the price!
Click to expand...

I think it's nice to be romantic and a lot of people do buy D FL because of what it represents. I think it's sweet but unless it's well cut you're being ripped off. For your price point I could only find 0.3-4 carats of well cut D FL compared to, for example, that 0.8 F VS1 above. And probably you could go a bit larger still with no visual issues in a well chosen VS2. :) Also remember that beautifully cut diamonds face up whiter, so you may wish to consider either G or H as well. Depends how colour sensitive you are. What do you think is the most important feature other than cut that your girl would want?

I will search more for you tomorrow, as, as you surely know, it's tomorrow already and I need sleep!

:)
 
Our job here is education, so I'm going to educate. Diamonds are graded for flaws under 10x magnification. Why 10x? My grandmother used to say that was because it was better than the most eagle-eyed person without magnification. Anyway, per GIA an IF diamond has "No inclusions and only blemishes are visible to a skilled grader using 10× magnification". So, there are blemishes, but no inclusions. But, those very same inclusions that hide at 10x are visible 11x, 15x, 20x, 100x. Just not 10x magnification. And, there are certainly blemishes. My point is that there nothing perfect about an IF diamond. Its about the level of magnification and skill of the viewer. If IF is culturally important, then I'm not here to change that. But, I think its important to put the world "flawless" into perspective.

I'd look at something more like this. JA will give you up to 3 IS images (idealscope) which allow us to look at light return. Put your favs on hold and then make the request. I'm throwing some G color options in this to give you some range to consider. G is very white.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4386456
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5211344 (need JA to examine for any impact from strong blue flour)
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4608436
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-g-color-vs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-5221768***
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-f-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-5075682***
 
I can't get the HPD site to work on my (ancient) phone but the EU CBI distributor is:
www.fortrez.com/diamonds/search/

£4k = c.€4.5k @ £1/€1.14 exchange rate.

It looks like there is a 0.77ct G VS1 in the CBI inventory for €4400 - you should seriously look at that on the HPD site. (All CBI dealers have access to the inventory.)

G is colourless to all but the most colour-sensitive eyes.
VS1 will be eye-clean even close-up with young eyes.
0.77 means you miss the 'round number tax' that seems to cause jumps in price at 0.5, 0.6, ... 0.8 ... 1.0... etc., while looking identical to a 0.8ct.
Three-quarters of a carat is a large stone in 99percent of the UK.
A super-ideal like a CBI will outperform everything you will ever see in shop windows.
 
Last edited:
rockysalamander said:
Our job here is education, so I'm going to educate. Diamonds are graded for flaws under 10x magnification. Why 10x? My grandmother used to say that was because it was better than the most eagle-eyed person without magnification. Anyway, per GIA an IF diamond has "No inclusions and only blemishes are visible to a skilled grader using 10× magnification". So, there are blemishes, but no inclusions. But, those very same inclusions that hide at 10x are visible 11x, 15x, 20x, 100x. Just not 10x magnification. And, there are certainly blemishes. My point is that there nothing perfect about an IF diamond. Its about the level of magnification and skill of the viewer. If IF is culturally important, then I'm not here to change that. But, I think its important to put the world "flawless" into perspective.

I'd look at something more like this. JA will give you up to 3 IS images (idealscope) which allow us to look at light return. Put your favs on hold and then make the request. I'm throwing some G color options in this to give you some range to consider. G is very white.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4386456
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5211344 (need JA to examine for any impact from strong blue flour)
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...g-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4608436
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-g-color-vs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-5221768***
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-f-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-5075682***
Click to expand...

Great info and advice @rockysalamander. @Rob Jackson I would recommend you consider @rockysalamander's choices over and above anything I have suggested as I am not an expert!!!
 
8B02D4F1-16EB-41F5-B99F-DC39EE76AD3D.jpeg 7E1972A3-8AA8-4CAC-BCE3-728621A7BCCD.jpeg 4A66E0B8-CC5D-4ED9-986A-BD09168E6ECA.jpeg
Thank you everyone again for your help.

I have found and reserved another one. I can’t get away from the D FL idea so have found this.

Everything, to my limited knowledge, checks out.

All the angles are bang on, and table etc- from the guidance I have been given

The ASET looks to show a great contrast in light and dark along with great symmetry and very little light leakage.

The heart and arrow shots also look pretty good to me (shame about the lower hearts and thier slightly large cutlets)

HCA is 0.7

Is there anything I have missed?

Many thanks
 
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