Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Ideal Cut Color/Clarity/Size Question

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
S

sonny55

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
12
Ok,

I''ve done tons of research, and it''s getting about time for me to purchase a diamond. I have, what I''ve found to be, pretty high standards for a diamond. While it seems that many PS members share the same standards, compared to what local jewelry store have, it''s high. I just need a little clarity on a few issues.

The main problem lies in the color of the stone. I''ve been to 3 high-priced local jewelry stores and have only found 1 ideal cut stone. It''s ridiculous. So, without being able to actually see an ideal cut, it''s hard to distinguish what color / clarity I should shoot for. My only real concern is to have the diamond shine when it is face up.

Please keep in mind that I want the largest stone possible (for my budget). With my current standards, and I can get a stone that''s around .75 (give or take). While this size is fine, I would like to go a little larger.

Any advice that you guys could provide about downgrading my standards of color would be great.

Budget (stone only) - $3,000 (+ or - $300)

CUT -

GIA Triple 0 - Ideal Cut

-------------------

COLOR

I know that the color won''t show as much in an ideal cut stone, but I don''t know how low to go. My initial reaction was to not go lower than F, but have recently lowered to a G. I would like to not notice any color when the stone is face up. I''ve seen other PS members go as low as J & I with ideal cuts....

-------------------

CLARITY

Would like to not go lower than VS2, but would certainly get an eye clean SI1. Any thoughts?


Any help would be appreciated. After the cut, I''ve noticed that color seems to be the second largest factor in price, and any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
Thoughts on clarity: Eye clean SI1 and SI2 stones really move fast. As soon as you find one, reserve it BEFORE you post questions about it here! If you decide against it they can just un-reserve it. I am also looking in that general specs department and the competition is fierce, lol. But I defer to those looking for e-rings. I am just buying for fun.

Color:
I color is where most people start seeing color. I, face up, will be pretty white in the size of RB you are looking at. I with strong blue fluor or medium fluorescence will face up more like G or H. A H even without without fluor will definitely look white except if you put it beside stones in the D/E/F range. J, well, J to me is a warm stone.

Cut is everything. Most B&M stores are selling nothing better than a "good" cut at best. Avoid EGL stones unless you can see them in person and hold them against a graded stone form say GIA or AGL b/c EGL is usually a second or 3rd tier of cut and huge tables and the color is 2+ grades off.

I bookmarked several color theme threads. I won't link them b/c I am in a hurry, but here they are:
I:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-color-stones-in-platinum.9689/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-there-thread-for-i-color-stones.39886/

J:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/j-color-stones-in-platinum.24731/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-04ct-j-si2-in-platinum-tiffany-solitaire-from-niceice.12734/

K:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/k-color-stones-in-platinum-wg.43782/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/platnium.11247/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/james-meyer-bezel-reset-has-arrived.97999/

Someone recently started a thread of H or G & H.
 
And I collect tidbits of wisdom re. dimensions and such. Here''s my entire text file "cheat sheet" and some of this, I don''t know which expert or prosumer posted but I''ll just post it anyway ;-)
I have not looked at the specifics of the diamond referenced because forum rules prevent a dealer from commenting on a diamond offered by another dealer so there is no point for me to do so, however I want to provide some insight into the center range that you might want to focus on to increase the HCA score... I like to keep the pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees offset by a crown angle between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees with a total depth between 59 - 61.8% and a table diameter between 53 - 57% and a girdle thickness between thin and medium. Now there are other combinations of crown / pavilion angle that will yield similar visual performance and some experimentation with the HCA will provide insight into what those combinations are likely to be, I''m just trying to provide you with a good place to start your search regardless of which dealer is offering the diamond of potential interest.

__________________________


Todd Gray

Nice Ice Ideal Cut Diamonds
GemTrace Laser Inscribed Diamond Registry

crown 34.3 - 34.8
pav 40.6 - 40.9
table 53 - 57%
depth 59 - 61.8


shallows:
Firstly with the depth a good range is 60 - 62% to get a good spread, go too shallow and sometimes cut quality can suffer and you can get issues such as obstruction ( visible darkening at close scrutiny due to the viewer''s head or body blocking light to the stone) if the crown and pavilion angles are also shallow ( what we call a shallow/ shallow), often these stones are better suited for pendants rather than rings.

However you can find some great diamonds which are a little more shallow, I would look at some diamonds which have no less than 59% for depth, crown and pavilion angles of around 34- 35 degrees and 40.6 - 41 deg respectively ( and get images if possible to check the stone out properly) and a table of around 56- 60%. You might be able to find what is called a 60 60 type diamond which could suit you if the angles as above are within good range.

-----------------------------------------
Here are some numbers from expert Todd Gray which should find you a well cut diamond just going by these proportions, it narrows the room for error considerably if you can''t get more Idealscope images. You can give these numbers to JA and ask them to search for diamonds which match.

Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 - 57%
Crown angle* between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle* between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle between thin to slightly thick
Culet: GIA none or AGS pointed (same concept)

--------------------------------------------

FB''s pick:
GIA Excellent cut grade.
Very good or better polish.
Excellent symmetry.
Not sitting right on a carat boundary; go at least a couple of % above the magic weight marker.
Medium girdle, or medium-sl.thick, or thin-medium (but don''t accept thin-slightly thick; it''s too variable).
Total depth: 61.8% maximum.
Table size: 55-57%
Crown angle: 34.5 degrees.
Pavilion angles: 40.8 degrees.
---------------------------------------------
Here are some good guidelines when looking for a well cut round. ("Borrowed" from Lorelei )

depth - 60 - 62%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

From expert John Pollard.

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

=============================================
A good recipe for a diamond that has more brightness and less fire would be to have a larger table, flatter crown and deeper pavilion. Something along the lines of:

Crown angle: 33.0
Pavilion angle: 41.0
Table: 59-60%
Depth: 58-61%

The benefit of the above proportions is that the stone should have a slightly larger diameter for it''s weight, due to the 1-2% shallower depth than your average Tolkowsky cut.

But that angle combination sits on a cliff-edge; just a small increase in either crown or pavilion (or a rounding-off error) can dramatically downgrade the light performance. Definitely don''t go for a stone that''s exactly on a carat boundary, because you can bet that the cutter compromised the beaiuty to attain the weight. 1.02ct or more should be safer, since the cutter had a little extra weight to play with, to create a good stone.

If the stone had strong or very strong blue flour, that would change the stone to a distinct lilac tint in bright daylight.

Going for a D-F body colour would minimise any yellow or "warm" tints in the stone and, when combined with strong fluor, the stone may be referred to as a "blue white" for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
 
Oh, and USA Certed used to have the reputation for selling at lowest price. But you might not get the service and the fast response and the ASET / IS / Sarin info easily. Call them, don't bother emailing.

Added: I never used to be color sensitive. But I am now. Looking at equivalent cut and diameter RB diamonds, a diamond wof D/E/F or maybe G looks larger than I and lower. Whiter white looks bigger to me.
 
I think G SI1 is the sweet spot for color and clarity. You can save some money by opting to find a diaond with perfect cut proportions but that is *not* a branded H&A. James Allen is a good source for diamonds like this, as is Whiteflash''s Expert Selection line.
 
Everyone's eyes are different and not all labs grade to the same strict standards as GIA.

It seems as if the colour bands get wider as the colours go lower, so that (with my eyes) it is very difficult to tell D from F, but very easy to tell F from H.

If you want it to be "white" and "eye clean" - eye clean from the normal overhead viewing position, not from the side! - you need to look at F colour and VS clarity.
If you want a stone with no inclusions visible after ten minutes inspection, in bright light, when viewed from top, sides and underneath, you'd better consider VVS clarity. But how often do people admire your stone from the side? Diamonds are made to sparkle out the top!

If your eyes are not colour sensitive, then you may be able to go to I/J colour.
But there are sufficient threads on here with people who've bought H-J colour stones that find them to be too "off-white-tinted" for their taste.

In platinum/white gold, I'd go for F VS2. If an important carat weight was within range, I'd drop to G SI1.

In yellow gold, I'd go way down the colours, to maximise the size of the stone. I'd also consider droping down the clarity to SI1 (maybe a very good SI2), since J/VS seems a slightly unbalanced combination of high clarity and medium colour that may detract from resale value (not that diamonds are an ideal investment - gold would be a better "investment" due to much lower dealing costs and greater liquidity).
 
 
Date: 3/10/2010 7:02:18 PM
Author: HVVS
Thoughts on clarity: Eye clean SI1 and SI2 stones really move fast. As soon as you find one, reserve it BEFORE you post questions about it here! If you decide against it they can just un-reserve it. I am also looking in that general specs department and the competition is fierce, lol. But I defer to those looking for e-rings. I am just buying for fun.

Color:
I color is where most people start seeing color. I, face up, will be pretty white in the size of RB you are looking at. I with strong blue fluor or medium fluorescence will face up more like G or H. A H even without without fluor will definitely look white except if you put it beside stones in the D/E/F range. J, well, J to me is a warm stone.

Cut is everything. Most B&M stores are selling nothing better than a ''good'' cut at best. Avoid EGL stones unless you can see them in person and hold them against a graded stone form say GIA or AGL b/c EGL is usually a second or 3rd tier of cut and huge tables and the color is 2+ grades off.

I bookmarked several color theme threads. I won''t link them b/c I am in a hurry, but here they are:
I:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-color-stones-in-platinum.9689/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-there-thread-for-i-color-stones.39886/

J:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/j-color-stones-in-platinum.24731/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-04ct-j-si2-in-platinum-tiffany-solitaire-from-niceice.12734/

K:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/k-color-stones-in-platinum-wg.43782/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/platnium.11247/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/james-meyer-bezel-reset-has-arrived.97999/

Someone recently started a thread of H or G & H.
Click to expand...
OK I am curious about the color statement. So I am to understand that if you want to go down on color to say an "I" one should look for some with flourescence to help make the color look more white?
But when I look at one vendor''s H&A stones the flourescence listed on 10 random H and I stones I looked was "Negligible".
So is it really better to have flourescence in your stone to increase the white appearance? If so how come they don''t seem to be the the H&A stones? I am confused and getting ready to make a purchase soon.
 
In my experience, even "strong" fluorescence requires strong daylight to activate.
In household lighting, I've never seen even a strong fluor stone show any colour change.

Therefore, most of the time, fluorescence will not have a noticeable effect on the stone and I strongly suggest not relying on fluorescence to bump-up the colour grade of your stone.
Maybe it will improve the colour grade, but maybe it won't.

Not that fluorescence is bad - just bear in mind that in low colour stones (e.g. J), fluor is less of a positive factor than you're often led to believe.
....and also bear in mind that in high colour stones (e.g. D), fluor is less of a negative factor than you're often led to believe.

In other words; the effect of fluorescence (whether good or bad) is generally greatly exagerated.
 
COLORCHART9.JPG


Those pics shows the body tints, that you might see from the side. A G or H will face up plenty white enough for most people, even me. I have an 1ct H a 1.35ct F, and unless I stand it bedside my F and look at the two together, H is bright white. Blue fluor in an H or I will help the face up perception in daylight or fluorescent office lighting, imo. Probably the reasons that you can't find it is it's not a property most diamonds have, and people here quickly snatch up the med and strong blues in the g/h/i colors.

There is this thread
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/would-you-rather-have-1ct-h-vs2-or-1-25ct-i-vs2-rb.71988/, and most people voted lower color and larger stone, fwiw. A well cut H diamond is nothing to shy away from. Depending on your / her color sensitivity, I or J might be. But I think you could set G, H, I in that size in white metal and it will look very white. I am not a huge J fan. But we all have our biases, lol.
 
Everyone has different standards of how low they will go for color and clarity, but for me personally it is I, SI2 (eyeclean). I had a 0.735 carat I colored diamond, and it looked very white to me with a slight hint of yellow from the side. It was an eyeclean SI2, and they do exist; I have had 2 of them. My current stone is a 1.331 carat J, SI2, and that is a bit too tinted for me. When I upgrade again, it will most likely be to a higher color. But I am fine with SI2 clarity as long as inclusions are not visible.
 
Pictures are good to get a preliminary feel for diamonds color, but you can''t judge it that way unfortunately.

As for flor, I actually think it is a bit of a myth that it helps lessen tint much at all. It only really operates in lighting environments that bring out the flor, but the body tint of a diamond is most apparent in low diffuse lighting where flor won''t help at all. Flor is a neat thing to seek for itself, but if you want a stone that is less tinted the only way to get that is to buy a diamond with a better color grade.
 
HVVS,

I do not know where these pictures of colour come from, but on my screen, they are highly exaggerated. Even the D looks more like a real I in that picture, and the N is already far in fancy-colour-territory.

I would advice against using these pics as a reference.

Live long,
 
WOW. Thank you all for you advice! I''m still debating, but now have more to consider. I''ll certainly post the diamond before I buy it for everyone''s approval! Thanks again!
 
Date: 3/12/2010 5:27:13 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
HVVS,


I do not know where these pictures of colour come from, but on my screen, they are highly exaggerated. Even the D looks more like a real I in that picture, and the N is already far in fancy-colour-territory.


I would advice against using these pics as a reference.


Live long,
Click to expand...

https://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/files/COLORCHART9.JPG from some old posts on PS. It's been referred to many times as a comparison chart for relative differences. I agree that the tint is off.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top