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I think I may have found it - opinions?

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jpdoane

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
53
Ok - I think I may have the stone:

She doesn''t want a big diamond, but she really likes sparkle.
This is a 0.7 on the HCA, excellents all around. I know she
likes the princess cuts *slightly* better, but brilliance is the
more important factor to her, so I think I''m going with a round.

Pretty sure this is a great deal, for a great stone, but I thought
I''d run it by all you cut nerds, and see what you think. I''ve got
an IdealScope on order, and I plan to verify its performance once
I get both the scope and the rock.

.51 F VVS1
Depth: 59.8%
Crown ang: 34.2
Pav Angle: 40.6
Table: 58%
Polish: EX
Symmetry: EX
Culet: N
Girdle: VTN-M
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 5.20x5.23x3.12
$2085
 

69gm

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 28, 2003
Messages
287
sounds like a nice diamond. might wanna check out the girdle if it's too thin but overall sounds very nice. any thoughts on going down on the clarity and increasing the color? VVS1 is nice but you're the only one who will ever know this. to the naked eye, even going down to SI1, you most likely won't see any inclusions. if not, "F" is an awesome color anyway.
 

Nate

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 17, 2003
Messages
211
You'll not see any difference between a F and a D. I would suggest going down on clarity and getting a larger stone. Personally I'd even go down in color as well. But clarity in a half carat stone isn't as important as in the larger stones. It can be extremely hard to find inclusions even in an SI2 0.5ct diamond. I would suggest SI1. You should be able to move up to a 0.65ct or so stone, with just as awesome a cut, for the same price. 0.65 still isn't huge and I don't think can be considered gaudy even by the most picky.
Neither you nor your fiancee can tell the difference between 0.5 F VVS1 and 0.65 F SI1, except that one is slightly bigger. Heck if you aren't caught up on size and 0.5 is great for you, save yourself $500 and get a 0.5ct F SI1. 25% off ain't bad!!

All that said, if you're willing to pay for things you can't see, it sounds like a great stone!
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,275
The averages seem good but the 58% table would disqualify it as an Ideal cut. Also the variances of the angles of both the major and minor facets (which are not provided) can really throw off the optical symmetry of the stone which means that in direct light conditions it may be as pretty as an H&A but in diffuse light conditions may very well not be. Based on the price this seems the case.

My .02c,
Rhino
 

jpdoane

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
53
Ok,
I'm still searching. I have another question, however. What do you guys think about getting a non AGS-0 stone that has an excellent (<1) HCA rating (such as the stone that started this post)? Is this a good way to find a bargain? I know I can always return it, but I'm hesitant to buy something online I'm not already confident of. I have an idealscope to check stones out, but I'm a novice and really don't have much confidence in my ability to accurately rate a stone's performance.

-Jon
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
Consider compromising on color and clarity before compromising CUT. CUT is the key to visual performance of any diamond. Inclusions tend to be less of an issue in smaller diamonds than larger ones. I have a H, 100% eye clean SI1, Branded H&A, set in white gold, that people "assume" is CZ because it sparkles way too much and is way too white and bright to be a real diamond. They also don't believe it is 3/4 carat because the CUT makes it look as big as their 1 carat Maul store diamonds. Dropping your color to G or H and clarity to VS2 or SI1 while maintaining CUT will open a whole realm of possibilities.

Check the Cut Charts to grade the Cut Class, then refer to the Price Stats to check your pricing. Get Sarin or OGI info and crunch the HCA. The HCA gives buying recommendations and warnings. Ask for a copy of the Cert including the inclusions plot. Discuss type, size, color, and location of the inclusions with the vendor. Maybe even get pics in advance as well. Consider having the diamond shipped to an independent appraiser for a complete evaluation prior to you receiving it. Online purchases can get you much a better quality/performing diamond for the same money.

As you find a diamonds you are interested in, post all the info including angles. There are many true experts here that pick up on very subtle irregularities, like girdle thickness and table size, to help guide you.
 

jpdoane

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
53
My question is, would you trust the HCA over the AGS standard if they differ slightly? If I wanted the best cut possible, would you trust HCA's rating of less than 1 (ie 0.7), even if its an AGS 1 (not AGS 0)?

THanks
-Jon
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441

----------------
On 6/26/2003 12:39:49 PM jpdoane wrote:
My question is, would you trust the HCA over the AGS standard if they differ slightly? If I wanted the best cut possible, would you trust HCA's rating of less than 1 (ie 0.7), even if its an AGS 1 (not AGS 0)?

----------------

The HCA is more recent development that, though not perfect, reflects more of the most recent cut research. One of the things that's become obvious--and one of the few things that the varying groups in this area agree on--is that there is no longer one set of "correct" proportions. In other words, it's possible to have a very nice looking stone that isn't an AGS 0. I think an HCA 0.7 and an AGS 1 is likely to be one of those, though of course you should always confirm it with your own eyes.

 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,275
We just had a client come in and compare 2 Hearts & Arrows diamonds. One a .6 on the HCA next to one of our stones that was a 1.4. They were both .77ct F SI1's. Without telling which stone was which he immediately picked out the stone with the 1.4 score. That stone happened to have the highest BrillianceScope results as well. Both stones were in the "sweet spot" zone in the AGS "0" range and the primary diference between the 2 was in the cutting of their minor facets. One was of the shorter star/lower girdle ratio (with tweaked upper girdles too), the other of a longer star/lower girdle ratio.

Non-ideals that score low on the HCA may have good internal reflection but you'll never attain the intensity of FIRE than you will with the H&A's Jon. Plus you also lose the beautiful optical symmetry which can be observed in diffuse/low light conditions. Don't cheat yourself man. We're all selling H&A's at unbelievable prices whether you come through us, niceice, etc. For something that will be with both you and her for the rest of her life ... don't chince.

My 02c,
Rhino
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,275
For your education ... http://www.goodoldgold.com/aaa8t_e_si1_ags4.htm

Here is a diamond that score a "1" on the HCA with 4 Excellents. It's optical symmetry can best be described as "chaotic". Yes it is a fiery stone in direct light conditions but this is typical of what you can expect with non ideal or non H&A that score well on the HCA. If you are content with that they are out there. If you are looking for the most beautiful diamond in all light conditions heed my prior advice.

Peace,
Rhino
 

69gm

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 28, 2003
Messages
287
hi jp,

just noticed from the original post that you said your GF prefers princess cut. now even though brilliance is important, did you run it by her that you're researching a RB and that she's okay with it? in the end, she has to be happy with it since she's the one that's going to wear it (as well as show it off to all her friends.
)
 

jpdoane

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
53
Yeah - I know

She wants to be surprised with her ring, so she doesn't want to give much input on it. I know that she will love whatever I get (beleive me, I'm being a *lot* more picky than she will be!). Me being the perfectionist wants to get her exactly what she wants, without being able to directly ask her. Its a bit of a tough spot to be in (the things we do for women...)

Anyway, she did tell me that the most important factor for her is brilliancy, scintilation, etc (sparkliness). But she also mentioned that she slightly prefered the Princess cut (Shes not aware that they are inherantly less brilliant). Knowing that I can get a much more brilliant round, as well as the fact that they are easier to shop for (with the HCA, etc), I am tempted to go with a round.
From hanging out here, I have been convinced that buying online is the way to go. However, everyone also says that with fancy cuts, you've got to see them yourselves to evaluate them. Thats a bit tough without buying every single decent one you see and returning all but one. I think I may start another thread about this one. I bet some people have some good input on this.

Thanks,
Jon
 

jpdoane

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
53
Ok,

I just went ahead and asked her. She said that she would prefer the one that sparkled more. So round it is I suppose!


Thanks guys (and girls)
-Jon
 
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