I could use some advice or a kick in the head...

[House Cat]

My oldest son has a pot-head dead beat for a father. He mooched off of me for 8 years. Now he mooches off of his mom and has done so since I left. She pays all of his bills. She’s convinced herself that he’s incapable of supporting himself.

My son loves his dad but sees him for who he is. My son is in grad school and plans to pursue his Ph.D. His career won’t be crazy lucrative. He will be a writer and a college professor. I am supporting him through college and have been this entire time.

His father has never...ever...contributed in any meaningful financial way to my son’s life. He has bought my son video games.

This weekend, my son’s grandma came to visit and asked when my son planned to “quit school and join the workforce.” And proceeded to talk to my son’s girlfriend about when they would take on supporting my son’s dad. Understand that both my son and his girlfriend are sweet, sweet, sweet and passive as all get out. They just stared at her.

My son doesn’t want to support his dad. His dad is a loud mouth abusive narcissist who forces himself on just about anyone.

I’m LIVID!!!! I’m cussing out my mirror LIVID! I want to call the B@tch and set her straight. That way she can put her affairs in order accordingly. I’ve given my son a myriad of advice but I can tell by his reaction that he won’t take any of it.

I’m just not sure how to empower my son at this time. Any advice for this crappy situation?

 

[soxfan]

I don't know WHY people like that think their KIDS should support them! It's the other way around! Ugh. I'm not the voice of reason here. I would call her up and flip out.

 

[PintoBean]

You tell your son that when it comes to minors, we do our best to take care of them out of a moral/legal whatever obligation.

When it comes to ADULTS, not so much. Grandma made her choices as an adult about how SHe would handle her adult son, dad made his choices as an adult... grandma should not be imposing on your son's decision making as an adult about his relationship with another adult (dad)

 

[House Cat]

I forgot to mention this is the second time grandma has brought this up! She’s dead serious about hobbling my son straight out of college.

 

[lyra]

You have no obligation to host granny then! I can understand her POV, but she put herself in that position. My mother did the same thing with my deadbeat sister. When my mom died, I wondered how sister was going to "manage". Well, I can't claim to know how, but she's still alive now and living on her own or with someone. I mean my mom paid for everything for years and raised her son for her. My sister did abandon her son with his dad, but whatever, she didn't end up on the streets or anything. I think she turns 60 this year. I'm sure she's still a substance abuser because she always has been.

I feel bad for your son, but just be honest with him. He absolutely doesn't have any obligation for anything toward his father. His father is an adult. He doesn't even have to see him if it comes down to it. My sister's son went on to disown my sister. She was always asking him for money and one day he'd just had enough. He is very successfully independent despite his upbringing. Your son sounds wonderful. Good job!

 

[azstonie]

In traditional psychiatric talk, this is called incest---it's parentification, in your specific example above. The nasty grandma is trying to parentify the young adult child of the piece-of-$#it narcissist into assuming all responsibilities for the deadbeat -dad-narcissist.

Of course that young couple had NO CLUE as to how to handle the old hag. You do and that's YOUR son there, help him.

Call her or better yet over coffee somewhere: "Grandma Bitchwad, under no circumstances will MY son sacrifice his life so that you get to run away from the dysfunctional excuse for a person that you made. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN."I

I have probably posted this to you quite a few times:

Outofthefog.net

Go there. Toolbox and Forum. I'll stop doing this now but honestly, this post is so alarming i in terms of your reaction to what she wants to do to YOUR SON.

(To clarify: There are several types of incest: Emotional, financial, sexual, etc.)

 

[azstonie]

Boundaries. Your family needs help here. Boundaries are done, not discussed. The minute the narcissist gets you to talk about boundaries, you screwed up, end the conversation immediately. Never, EVER expose or highlight your feelings to a narcissist. It gives them a lovely target for their mayhem.

 

[Gussie]

Sorry @House Cat. Just say no, no emotion, no negotiations. It has to stop somewhere. My uncle was similar to your ex. When my grandparents died, they told my mom and her other 2 sibs to help support her pathetic brother. They all said no. My grandparents have been gone for years now and my uncle is finally living a self supporting life. He's better now, more content, even happy. Enabling people is a disease.

 

[azstonie]

At the meeting with Grandma, address the concept of resources: I've written a check for X dollars, the going rate for sperm donation, which after all is the only paternal activity undertaken by your son. This clears the books---I owe your son nothing and my son and his future family sure as hell owe him nothing also.

 

[Bron357]

Whoa, not good or nice.
Time for a heart to heart with your son and his girlfriend along these lines.
Son, I have supported you throughout your education because I want you to reach for the stars and realise your dreams. I am so very proud of your achievements and career goals.
Your grandma has supported her son, your father, but that’s because she chooses to. Your father is an adult, he is his own responsibility, not yours.
We all make our choices and then we have to live with them. Your father doesn’t bother with working or creating a future for himself, let alone for you, he instead chooses to suck the life and money out of those around him. Your grandmother would like you to take over feeding the parasite, your grandmother is an enabler, instead of putting her foot down decades ago and making your father act and behave like a responsible adult, she didn’t and hasn’t. Now she is old she is looking at you to take over feeding the parasite.
Your father is not your problem, not your responsibility. You can love him and care about him but do not feed the parasite. You know how ticks work, they latch on, start sucking blood while pumping poison into their host. That is what your father will do to you if you allow him. Dont let your grandmother “shame you” or make you feel an obligation or responsibility that isn’t valid or fair. Your father as an adult is responsible for his own welfare and if he doesn’t like the situation he finds himself in, that is his problem not yours.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Oh, I would definitely have to set Grandma straight - particularly because you think her words are having a major impact on your son. Then I'd call his father and set him straight as well. Not that he cares but I would put it on the record how disgusting it is that his mother thinks that his son should now be charged with taking financial care of him. I'd tell him that you were rooked into for years but you'd make damn sure that your son won't be.

Then I'd sit my son and girlfriend down and have as serious of a talk with them as you have ever had. It is imperative that he not give into the guilt trip of his Dad. It's not something that he can do for awhile - from the first dollar forward he will be guilted into believing that it is his responsibility. The mother sounds as pathetic as the son. She chose to do this for her son but it is not something to pass down through the generations. Ugh - makes me angry and I don't even know them - lol!!

 

[tkyasx78]

Ykes.
I am worried that the ex even felt comfortable enough to ask.


Ykes.

 

[cmd2014]

I don’t think grandma would be visiting ever again. I also think she’d get a calm but deadly serious piece of my mind where it would be laid out in no uncertain terms that this behavior is not ok and that she should have no illusions that anyone will be taking over financial care of her son. Then I would let your son and his girlfriend know that not only is this not expected of them, but that they need to stand up and say no if it ever happens again. And you need to jump in if it ever does and escort her out. I agree that boundaries are enacted, not discussed.

 

[kgizo]

I wouldn’t say anything to the grandma. Given the choices she has made I don’t believe there is anything you could say to make her behave any differently.
Since you are worried about your son I would sit down with him and help him create a budget with his expected salary. Help him realize that he can’t pay off student loans, buy a house, afford kids, travel, etc if he is going to support his father.

 

[MollyMalone]

I have a different take, one shaped by dialogue with my son through the years (my son is a few years older, I think, than your son; due to a deep descent into alcoholism, his dad/my ex has not been a father figure to my son for years & he too sponged off his widowed mother in her sunset years, think he's now in a halfway house)

Please do not call your former mother-in-law to read her the riot act. That conveys to your son (who's not a young child) that you view him as incompetent, unable to care of his matters himself -- the opposite of empowering him.

Just because he and his girlfriend were stunned & said nothing in response to his grandmother's demands doesn't mean he has any intention of shouldering responsibility for his dad.

Bottom line as I see it: painful as it can be for us moms when we think our kids (even grown ones) aren't being treated fairly, this situation really is not your problem to handle. And because he's an intelligent, 20-something man, I bet if he'd like your advice, he'll ask for it ; - )

 

[princessandthepear]

I don't think grandma is trying to hurt or upset your son. She is tired of taking care of her own son and is hoping that a relative(your son) will care for him. When I married my deadbeat of a husband his mother told me that she wouldn't shelter him if I tossed him out(she was raising his two daughters and had adopted one of them). I stayed married to him for too long because I felt sorry for him. I got over that and divorced him though.
You can be mad at your former in-law for suggesting he support his father but it is your son't choice if he does it. So calmly make your arguments to your son and let him decide.

 

[Matthews1127]

I have no advice to give that hasn’t already been given or offered, here.
I will say this: YOU raised him. If he’s as good as he sounds, you did a hell of a great job! Now, it’s time to see if anything you taught him has stuck, and see what he does.
Unfortunately, you can’t control this situation; he’s a grown man & needs to be able to handle things on his own. You have to trust that he will do the right thing for himself. I believe he will. No one wants a leach in their life; even if it contributed DNA to help to create you. Have faith that everything you taught him, and all of the advice you have offered him has been enough for him to stand on his own two feet & be the man that you made him.
As for grandma: leave her stupid ass be. Turn your back on that, and stay silent.

 

[TooPatient]

I have given a lot of thought to this subject. My parents both barely graduated high school. Both are potential issues this way.

My father had specifically told me while I was in high school that he expected me to get a good degree so I can take care of him is his old age. He said it as a sort of joke but made it clear in other times that he was serious. I heard through family that he lost his job (company shut down and no others of the kind anywhere in the area). I was dreading him finding me because I would have no choice but to say no. He was an abusive alcoholic who was (unfortunately) in my life only until I moved away and didn't tell him where. I would hurt badly doing it, but I would absolutely stand up and say no should he want any support from me.

My mother....
This is a tricky one. She is a recovering alcoholic. She was never available when I desperately needed her growing up, but since she quit dribkdri has actually been there with me for a couple of difficult times. Sometimes we text often and other times it will be a few months before I hear back from her. She is living in a motorhome in her parents' driveway. She has no skills that would get her a decent job and refuses to get any despite knowing she could take college classes for free. She chooses to stay in a job that pays lousy and is hard on the body (no, she doesn't enjoy the job) because she doesn't want to attempt anything different. We would drive each other crazy if she lived here. I would never agree to that. She would never ask. (I know this as she has been asking the rest of the family recently...) That said, I don't know that I could turn her away to living on the street. DH and I have tossed some ideas around and have decided we would likely get a simple trailer and pay hookup at a trailer park but not much else. I don't know what I will do if that time comes. She is a very mixed bag in my life.


Anyway, I hope my rambling helps you somehow. Your son is smart and needs to be encouraged as an adult. Do that and know that he is probably going through all of these scenarios in his head trying to sort it out. Be there to listen to him but let him handle it.

 

[perry]

I appreciate the dilemma you are in (let's not go into why I know about stuff like this).

I would not read grandma the riot act. I would just tell her that her future support is off limits as a subject in your house (no explanation needed: your house - your rules). That she is free to visit if she understands that; and that you will at times miss seeing her if she feels otherwise.

As for your son. There is too much here I don't know, otherwise I might offer some more specific advice. In general, I would tell your son that he has to make his own decisions on his future and what he will accomplish. That he owes no one (not even you) any real financial aid in the future. That it's more important that he takes care of himself and his future family - first.

A common recommendation I make to people involves success books. In this case some of the Napoleon Hill books may help him Think and Grow Rich - if only the chapter on "The 6 Ghosts of Fear" is worth it's weight in gold. The Master Key to Riches... better yet. Outwitting the Devil has so much information in it...

Of course there are other authors: How to Win Friends and Influence People in the Digital Age (updated from the old classic), Success through a Positive Mental Attitude, The 5 Love Languages,... and trust me I can go on and on... (and for different people I give and recommend different books). All of these books help people become more successful... and more independent (as a personal charity I give select people these books... and more books as long as they read them... and watch them improve and change their lives; a whole lot more effective than giving people money...).

I wish you the best,

Perry

 

[PintoBean]

I thought about it some more. If I was feeling feisty, I'd give grandma the biggest sweetest saccharine filled smile and say, "grandma, you do such a great job taking care of dad that I know you wouldn't mind taking care of me AND girlfriend too! That's why I love you the most."

 

[jordyonbass]

This sounds so familiar as I've been there before with a family member; in my experience they're never going to change and just look for the next person to use so they don't have to take on responsibility. The best thing you can do is try to protect them from him - but if they open their door to him then you're essentially powerless from there.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Is your son a softie who will be manipulated into supporting deadbeat dad?

I would go nuclear on the b@tch and tell her to take care of her deadbeat child herself and that under no circumstances is she to mess with MY kid's life.

If it's doable I'd even keep her away from him.

That said I don't know your family circumstances and temperament in general so it's easy for me to tell you what *I* would do but we aren't the same person!

It also depends on your son. I understand where those who are saying you should not step in to fight his battles are coming from. However, depending on your personalities sometimes a person with a less strong personality will find it helpful when a strong personality steps in to "handle" things for them.

I just spoke to my husband who told me he appreciates me going off at people to eliminate problems for him over the years because he doesn't like conflict. It doesn't mean you do it all the time, but you do it when it needs to be done.

 

[missy]

@House Cat I am very sorry about this unpleasant situation and I agree emphatically with all the previous posters about doing what you can to empower your son not to fall into this landmine of taking care of his deadbeat father. That any grandmother can try manipulating her grandson to sacrifice his future success in order to take care of her son is mind boggling but people can be pathological and this is a textbook example.

I feel confident however that you have given your son the building blocks to make the right decision for him and his future family and with motional support and continued guidance from you he will be A OK. I am just so sorry you are all dealing with this.

Wishing you all the best.

 

[House Cat]

Thank you everyone. The more I think about it, I think that calling the grandmother would be a bad idea. She won’t hear me and it might open the door for the ex to call and scream at me...drama.

My son admitted last night that he wouldn’t allow his father to go homeless. This sort of set me off emotionally. I explained that his dad manipulated and schemed so that his life would be exactly where it is today. I also explained that we were making sacrifices to send him to school. These sacrifices shouldn’t be made for him to turn around and support his father. Then I felt guilty for saying that. My son said he didn’t want to talk about this every time he came over. This was the second time we’ve discussed it. He’s overwhelmed. I tried to explain to him that his dad isn’t his responsibility but he was pretty shut down. He mostly thinks the even of his dad showing up on his door won’t happen. He’s in denial even though his grandma is grooming him for this very thing!

This morning, I woke up and realized that my son still has a really long road with his dad.

I don’t know if I’ve given him the proper building blocks to fight this situation but it is soothing to hear that people might think so.

I am moved by how many people have been in this situation. I am angry to know that so many people have been through this heartache! I’m sad because you only wanted to help someone and you were exploited. This lesson is a very painful one that leaves you jaded. I didn’t want this for my son. Apparently his grandmother does. She doesn’t love my son. She only worries about herself. Even the act of supporting her 50 year old child is only to soothe her own feelings of guilt.

You all have given me so many good things to think about. Maybe I can even get my son to read this...in a week or two when he isn’t upset! Thank you!

 

[House Cat]

Boundaries. Your family needs help here. Boundaries are done, not discussed. The minute the narcissist gets you to talk about boundaries, you screwed up, end the conversation immediately. Never, EVER expose or highlight your feelings to a narcissist. It gives them a lovely target for their mayhem.

This is a good reminder @azstonie thank you.

 

[marymm]

Grandma is pushing your son one way and you are pushing him another way; both of you using forms of manipulation to get the outcome you want.

To the extent you are able, drop this subject with your son, and with everyone else. In many ways, it is not your business unless/until your son asks for your input. Regardless of your opinion of your ex, he is your son's father.

Your son has said he wouldn't allow his father to go homeless.

This doesn't have to mean he is taking his father into his household or taking on the financial burden of housing him; it may be just what he said: he will do what it takes to ensure his father is not on the streets.

Although you think your son shouldn't feel this way or have to take on the burden, you've raised your son to be who he is, a man who will not allow one of his parents to be homeless. You should be proud.

Who knows when or if this may ever come to pass.

(my 2 cents)

 

[Calliecake]

House Cat, I really feel for your son. If you are unable to make your son understands that he is not responsible for financially supporting his father. Please get him in therapy. I’ve been conned and lied to by my father and his wife quite a few times over the past fifteen years. It’s a terrible feeling knowing your father is trying to take advantage of you. I’m grateful they live half way across the country.

Anytime my dad, his wife, her children or her grandchildren need money, I get a phone call. Nothing says love like hearing your dad’s wife scream in the background of a phone call “Make her send us the damn money”, as I listen to the latest lie.

The most recent lie was I needed to send $3;000 for a new lawn mower for my 81 year old father. She was trying to pay for her 50 year old daughter’s car thar was about to be repossessed. I’ve met this woman once in my life 30 years ago.

Put a stop to it now or it will never end.

 

[Elizabeth35]

I have very similar situation.
I have tried to give my son the tools and permission to not feel this is his responsibility. But---he is a good young man with morals and he looked at me and said "but I would take care of you Mom, if you needed it. I have to do the same for my father."
I understand what he is saying and have to respect it. I don't like that his father is putting him in this position but I can't control that.

This is, unfortunately, his decision to make. At some point we have to let our sons be men--and shut our mouths. If they want our advice or opinion, they will ask for it.

As for the granny----I would not engage with her. Maybe let your son handle his relationship with his grandmother outside of your home.

 

[Austina]

I have not been in the same situation @House Cat , but I have been in the situation where my son’s grandmother lied to him and tried to alienate him from us. It was very hard not to say anything, but at the time, we felt he wouldn’t listen and it would possibly make us seem like the villains.

We kept our mouths shut, and said nothing, everytime he visited her, it felt like a dagger to our hearts. Eventually her lies caught her out, and he began to realise that he was being manipulated.

When that happened it was easier to talk to him about the situation and he finally saw things from our side. Up till that point, I honestly don’t think we could’ve reasoned with him.

We don’t know if he still has contact with her, we don’t ask, and he knows better than to say anything. What I do know is that he finally saw her for what she was.

If I were you, I would not entertain your MIL in your home again. If he chooses to see her, then that’s up to him.

 

[cmd2014]

House Cat,

It occurred to me that it will be difficult for you to see your son as an adult so long as he is financially dependent on you. It will also be difficult for him to see himself the same way. Many parents (mine included) choose to support their children through their undergraduate degree but not through graduate school/medical school/law school/other post-bachelor's training programs. Graduate school typically offers financial support through grants, bursaries, research assistantships, teaching assistantships, sessional teaching positions, and the like. And it is normal for people to work. I did a combination of student loans, teaching/research positions, and work (waitressing and retail positions in the beginning and then as I got more experienced in my field the doors started to open in terms of sessional teaching positions and other positions in my field). This also allows for resume building and professional connections to form, and opens doors for jobs post-graduation. Again, this is totally normal and helpful, even though it can be a lot to juggle at times. You may feel less attached to this issue if your son is financially independent of you. You may also then be able to feel that it is truly his money, and not yours, going to this situation if it turns out to be that way.

ETA: If you do choose to keep supporting him, and he chooses to keep accepting the money, then he also has to accept the strings and expectations that come with that - i.e., that you *do* get an opinion about how the money is spent. And if you are not comfortable with that, then you get to decide whether or not to keep providing the funds...

And yeah, grannie would not be welcome in my home anymore. Let your son have whatever relationship he wants to have with her separate from you. Same goes for the ex...