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Husband and wife sentenced for toxic jewelry.

Wink

Ideal_Rock
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zip99

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Three years is quite excessive! Has the lead actually injured anyone? I doubt it. Was anyone financially damaged other than, perhaps, the brands the married couple was knocking off? My guess is that this was a business that sold fakes to people who know they were fakes. They should have to pay for the harm they caused, not rot away in a prison cell. I feel very sorry for them.
 

swingirl

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zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Three years is quite excessive! Has the lead actually injured anyone? I doubt it. Was anyone financially damaged other than, perhaps, the brands the married couple was knocking off? My guess is that this was a business that sold fakes to people who know they were fakes. They should have to pay for the harm they caused, not rot away in a prison cell. I feel very sorry for them.
If you break the law, you get punished. There is punishment for "conspiracy" and "illegally importing" goods. I, as a tax-payer, was damaged by illegal activity.
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
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Personally I would like to see more enforcement of such laws and strict penalties.

I would love to see the laws on predatory pricing enforced so that large companies could no longer sell at or below cost to drive competitors out of business and then raise prices as much as they want.

I would love to see the people who sold gold chains at 70% off at the mall for five years prosecuted and punished for the BS. The chains at 70% off were at more than double the prevailing retail in the area, but a lot of the uneducated bought them as they "thought" they were getting a deal.

(I used quotes, because obviously the did not really think, not even a little.)

Wink
 

zip99

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swingirl|1305570218|2923203 said:
zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Three years is quite excessive! Has the lead actually injured anyone? I doubt it. Was anyone financially damaged other than, perhaps, the brands the married couple was knocking off? My guess is that this was a business that sold fakes to people who know they were fakes. They should have to pay for the harm they caused, not rot away in a prison cell. I feel very sorry for them.
If you break the law, you get punished. There is punishment for "conspiracy" and "illegally importing" goods. I, as a tax-payer, was damaged by illegal activity.
How were you damaged? In fact, their imprisonment will likely cost you more money.
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
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zip99|1305576114|2923301 said:
swingirl|1305570218|2923203 said:
zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Three years is quite excessive! Has the lead actually injured anyone? I doubt it. Was anyone financially damaged other than, perhaps, the brands the married couple was knocking off? My guess is that this was a business that sold fakes to people who know they were fakes. They should have to pay for the harm they caused, not rot away in a prison cell. I feel very sorry for them.
If you break the law, you get punished. There is punishment for "conspiracy" and "illegally importing" goods. I, as a tax-payer, was damaged by illegal activity.
How were you damaged?
I am going to let Swing Girl answer that for herself, but I can think of many ways that I and other legitimate jewelers were damaged by such actions. One of the principle ways is damage to the health of any child wearing that toxic garbage. There are a host of health problems caused by lead, especially to children. The damage to children's health would quickly lead to loss of confidence in the industry that I love, which would result in loss of sales. Add to that the damage to the branded lines that were counterfeited and just on the commercial level this leads to millions of lost dollars on which taxes were not collected. With a little thought I could come up with another dozen or so examples of how the industry has been damaged.

I will be interested to see Swing Girl's reasons that she has been damaged as a taxpayer, but I can imagine many. I guess my question to you would be why you do not see any damage here?

Wink
 

emeralddreams

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I, as a parent, would be concerned. Having two young daughters that love to wear "Mommy's jewelry" who also do not quite understand that it is not sanitary to suck on pendants, I am appalled. My two year old will put stuff in her mouth to hide it if she knows I'm going to take it from her. There is a reason that they created a legal level for lead in products. From my understanding, the effects may not neccessarily be immediate, but I could be wrong on that. Either way, if they were aware of this, then yes they should be punished. They had a total disregard for the health of those they were selling to.
 

zip99

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The couple should of course have to pay damages for any child that was hurt as a result of the lead. That's obviously not up for debate. And I can certainly understand the reaction of people who say that dealers who sell products that injure children should be sent to jail, and in some cases I agree. Although, here such claims are purely speculative. The article would probably have referenced any relevant instances of lead poisoning had they been reported.

You raise a good point regarding indirect harm to the the jewelry industry as a whole. But this issue can be better resolved without government regulations on lead content and knock off patrol, and certainly without prison sentences. If anything, the government as a watch dog gives the public a false sense of security that potentially dangerous or fake jewelry is ok to purchase and wear. Without that false security blanket honest jewelers would be benefited as a market arose for private watch dog agencies that gave honest jewelers a stamp of approval. The GIA is a wonderful example of a trusted private organization that monitors the jewelry industry. It would be great if we could see more of them.

Finally, I am highly skeptical of any claim that the imprisoned couple harmed everyone in the country who is a tax payer. As I mentioned above, the costs associated with our prison system relating to "illegal contraband" and law enforcement are far far greater to tax payers.
 

emeralddreams

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Also, 30 months is not rotting away in prison. If it had only been a fine or 3 months or something, then it is likely they would have done it again. 2 1/2 years really is not long, especially when most people get out early for overcrowding or good behavior. I can't imagine the people who have bought lead items from them and don't realize it. Or those who have bought them as gifts for others. The repercussions of their actions could go on for years.

Sorry. Didn't mean to do two posts! Kinda new at this!
 

zip99

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emeralddreams|1305582512|2923425 said:
Also, 30 months is not rotting away in prison. If it had only been a fine or 3 months or something, then it is likely they would have done it again. 2 1/2 years really is not long, especially when most people get out early for overcrowding or good behavior. I can't imagine the people who have bought lead items from them and don't realize it. Or those who have bought them as gifts for others. The repercussions of their actions could go on for years.

Sorry. Didn't mean to do two posts! Kinda new at this!
I think we can agree that too little was done too late!
 

100

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Dec 26, 2009
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Some of you mentioned that the brands that got copied somehow indirectly damaged from the replica sales... No they don't.

You simply forgot one fact. That people that buy the counterfeit, replica, etc. will never buy the genuine item. That could be either: Cannot afford it, or simple seeing the over inflated prices on the luxury goods. The luxury brands cater to very small populations. It is not meant for everyone. The luxury brands know that, and they accepted that because they ridiculously marked up, hired actor/actress, supermodel, etc to promote the brand. So naturally the cost of the items included the cost of advertisement itself. Average consumers, or people that buy fakes will never able to afford it. So that's why there is a whole industry of fakes out there. It's just simply supply and demand.

As a consumer myself. If I am going to pay a $50 for an item that should cost $5,000.00. I should know and accept the simple fact of life, you get what you paid for.
 

zip99

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Another important point: if knock-off dealers didn't need to operate in the shadows, their products could be much more easily regulated for dangerous substances like lead.
 

Imdanny

Ideal_Rock
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swingirl|1305570218|2923203 said:
zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Three years is quite excessive! Has the lead actually injured anyone? I doubt it. Was anyone financially damaged other than, perhaps, the brands the married couple was knocking off? My guess is that this was a business that sold fakes to people who know they were fakes. They should have to pay for the harm they caused, not rot away in a prison cell. I feel very sorry for them.
If you break the law, you get punished. There is punishment for "conspiracy" and "illegally importing" goods. I, as a tax-payer, was damaged by illegal activity.
:confused:
 

MichelleCarmen

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zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Three years is quite excessive! Has the lead actually injured anyone? I doubt it. Was anyone financially damaged other than, perhaps, the brands the married couple was knocking off? My guess is that this was a business that sold fakes to people who know they were fakes. They should have to pay for the harm they caused, not rot away in a prison cell. I feel very sorry for them.
Three years is a long time, but they did committe fraud. They lied and the amount of money involved is quite a bit. But, as was said, it's doubtful they'll be in there for the entire sentence.

Re: lead. EVERYTHING is made in China these days. I bought my kids some fruit cups that were labeled as containing no sugar. Just fruit in little cups with fruit concentrate. I turned the package over and it was from China! FOOD! Same thing with a package of Thai noodles/sauce. If anyone is concerned about their kids' healthy, they should look everything over. Turn your keyboard over and see where it is made! China? You're probably typing away on lead right now.
 

Karl_K

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zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Three years is quite excessive!
Have you ever seen a 6 year old that is suffering from lead poisoning?
I have, he was poisoned by lead paint in a house his parents were rebuilding and flipping at 3 years old.
He will never live a normal life.
3 years in my opinion is on the low side.

SYMPTOMS OF LEAD POISONING

Headaches
Irritability
Abdominal Pain
Vomiting
Anemia
Weight Loss
Poor Attention Span
Noticeable Learning Difficulty
Slowed Speech Development
Hyperactivity

EFFECTS OF LEAD POISONING

Reading and Learning Disabilities
Speech and Language Handicaps
Lowered I.Q.
Neurological Deficits
Behavior Problems
Mental Retardation
Kidney Disease
Heart Disease
Stroke
Death
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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MC|1331658125|3147692 said:
zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Re: lead. EVERYTHING is made in China these days. I bought my kids some fruit cups that were labeled as containing no sugar. Just fruit in little cups with fruit concentrate. I turned the package over and it was from China! FOOD! Same thing with a package of Thai noodles/sauce. If anyone is concerned about their kids' healthy, they should look everything over. Turn your keyboard over and see where it is made! China? You're probably typing away on lead right now.
I check all my food before I buy it and if it says China it goes back on the shelf.
 

jaebond

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Karl_K|1331658946|3147706 said:
zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Three years is quite excessive!
Have you ever seen a 6 year old that is suffering from lead poisoning?
I have, he was poisoned by lead paint in a house his parents were rebuilding and flipping at 3 years old.
He will never live a normal life.
3 years in my opinion is on the low side.

SYMPTOMS OF LEAD POISONING

Headaches
Irritability
Abdominal Pain
Vomiting
Anemia
Weight Loss
Poor Attention Span
Noticeable Learning Difficulty
Slowed Speech Development
Hyperactivity

EFFECTS OF LEAD POISONING

Reading and Learning Disabilities
Speech and Language Handicaps
Lowered I.Q.
Neurological Deficits
Behavior Problems
Mental Retardation
Kidney Disease
Heart Disease
Stroke
Death
And that's not something that any kind of '"damages" are going to make up for.
 

ChrisES

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
220
I think that this case is probably a rare but delightful example of an effective deterrent.

This isn't a tort case where the family has been hurt and needs to be compensated.

This isn't a drug trafficking case where more jail time is just going to harden the perpetrators, because meanwhile drugs are still illegal and still addictive and still insanely profitable.

This is a commercial fraud case. Every day, we all buy numerous things on the assumption that the product we will receive is as advertised. Even when figuring out what we want and can afford, and while cognizant of the fact that you get what you pay for, we trust that retailers are fairly representing their products. In this case, the products were labeled lead-free but they were not lead-free. Given that the jewelry was knock-off anyway, and the abundance of non-lead alternatives, selling this jewelry saved the store and their suppliers a very small amount of money. Basically, they cut a corner. And they're going to spend significant time in prison as a result. Why? Because cutting corners when it comes to the honest representation of commercial goods is not OK. For anyone. Period.

It's easy to say that that's a lot of time for these people, or to say that jail time is a waste of tax dollars, or to say that they didn't hurt me, who can afford to spend more significant money on name-brand jewelry. But those reactions overlook the most important thing, which is the dutiful execution of the government's duty to protect the marketplace.

Edit: The article says this was actually charged as a hazardous substance case, but I am going to leave up my general defense of fraud prosecution anyway. Basically, all of the above plus dangerous substances!
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
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Wink|1305573707|2923265 said:
I would love to see the people who sold gold chains at 70% off at the mall for five years prosecuted and punished for the BS. The chains at 70% off were at more than double the prevailing retail in the area, but a lot of the uneducated bought them as they "thought" they were getting a deal.
THIS. I worked at a the mall a couple years ago during my junior year in college, and our storefront was within site of Zales and Gordon's Jewelers. Everything was always 50% off, with about a third of the store always 70% off - except from slightly before Thanksgiving until right after Valentine's Day, when the biggest discount advertised was 15%. Even at 70% off, things were still overpriced... I'm sure they then took it down for a total of 80% off. Which is INSANE. I find it hard to believe that people think they are getting a "deal" when it's clearly SO marked up. And I feel sorry for the poor suckers who buy during holiday proposal time, when the store probably doesn't discount the stuff as much as they do at other times.
 

Amys Bling

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emeralddreams said:
I, as a parent, would be concerned. Having two young daughters that love to wear "Mommy's jewelry" who also do not quite understand that it is not sanitary to suck on pendants, I am appalled. My two year old will put stuff in her mouth to hide it if she knows I'm going to take it from her. There is a reason that they created a legal level for lead in products. From my understanding, the effects may not neccessarily be immediate, but I could be wrong on that. Either way, if they were aware of this, then yes they should be punished. They had a total disregard for the health of those they were selling to.
agree. So dangerous. I don't know if I agree with the three year sentence but they definitely should be punished.
 

ChrisES

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
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distracts|1331665725|3147798 said:
Wink|1305573707|2923265 said:
I would love to see the people who sold gold chains at 70% off at the mall for five years prosecuted and punished for the BS. The chains at 70% off were at more than double the prevailing retail in the area, but a lot of the uneducated bought them as they "thought" they were getting a deal.
THIS. I worked at a the mall a couple years ago during my junior year in college, and our storefront was within site of Zales and Gordon's Jewelers. Everything was always 50% off, with about a third of the store always 70% off - except from slightly before Thanksgiving until right after Valentine's Day, when the biggest discount advertised was 15%. Even at 70% off, things were still overpriced... I'm sure they then took it down for a total of 80% off. Which is INSANE. I find it hard to believe that people think they are getting a "deal" when it's clearly SO marked up. And I feel sorry for the poor suckers who buy during holiday proposal time, when the store probably doesn't discount the stuff as much as they do at other times.
Going out of business "sales" are hugely profitable. Same thing, basically.
 

oldminer

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Those who sell bad products, those who sell misrepresented products, those who disregard the public safety, all of them decrease the reputation of those who are forced to compete with them who are honest merchants trying hard to serve their customers fairly and safely while competing with those who use unfair tactics.

We see this with those who would willingly sell us poisonous jewelry or radioactive blue topaz gemstones. We see the same thing with certain labs that ALWAYS grade diamonds with their own diamond grading scales that just happen to look identical to the GIA system, but are not close to being the same system. Who goes to jail, who gets their wrist slapped, who gets off for years with no punishment at all, seems to be just luck of the draw. The best way is to know that not everything is fair and to try your best to treat your own clients in a way that is just like you would wish to be treated yourself.

WHen you get caught the punishment often does not fit the crime, but that is the risk one takes when gooing down that wrong path. Three years is time to re-think one's choices. Likely, there may be civil suits for damages separate from the criminal conviction. It can go on for years. When you endanger the public safety and get sent to the pokey, so be it.
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
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Nice to see this being revisited.

I wonder if they are even still in jail?

Wink
 

Karl_K

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Wink|1331690931|3148133 said:
Nice to see this being revisited.

I wonder if they are even still in jail?

Wink
lol didn't notice the date.
She is still in jail:
JACQUELINE OH 55629-112 57-Asian-F 07-20-2014 VICTORVILLE MED II FCI

You can search here: http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/LocateInmate.jsp

No record for him so he was either released, in transit , died, in the hospital/nursing area or in supermax or who knows lol
 

asscherisme

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Karl_K|1331660179|3147722 said:
MC|1331658125|3147692 said:
zip99|1305569634|2923192 said:
Re: lead. EVERYTHING is made in China these days. I bought my kids some fruit cups that were labeled as containing no sugar. Just fruit in little cups with fruit concentrate. I turned the package over and it was from China! FOOD! Same thing with a package of Thai noodles/sauce. If anyone is concerned about their kids' healthy, they should look everything over. Turn your keyboard over and see where it is made! China? You're probably typing away on lead right now.
I check all my food before I buy it and if it says China it goes back on the shelf.
I bought some freeze dried apples from Costco. Thought it was a healthy snack. No added sugar, just pure apples. Half way through the box of 20 individual packages, I took a pouch for myself and before opening it noticed the tiny print: made in China. I complained to Costco and threw the rest of the box out. I won't feed my cats food from China after the big pet food fiasco a few years ago that killed many pets and sicked others. I won't feed my kids something I won't feed my cats.
 

ChrisES

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Oldminer|1331688166|3148104 said:
Those who sell bad products, those who sell misrepresented products, those who disregard the public safety, all of them decrease the reputation of those who are forced to compete with them who are honest merchants trying hard to serve their customers fairly and safely while competing with those who use unfair tactics.

We see this with those who would willingly sell us poisonous jewelry or radioactive blue topaz gemstones. We see the same thing with certain labs that ALWAYS grade diamonds with their own diamond grading scales that just happen to look identical to the GIA system, but are not close to being the same system. Who goes to jail, who gets their wrist slapped, who gets off for years with no punishment at all, seems to be just luck of the draw. The best way is to know that not everything is fair and to try your best to treat your own clients in a way that is just like you would wish to be treated yourself.

WHen you get caught the punishment often does not fit the crime, but that is the risk one takes when gooing down that wrong path. Three years is time to re-think one's choices. Likely, there may be civil suits for damages separate from the criminal conviction. It can go on for years. When you endanger the public safety and get sent to the pokey, so be it.
Curious about this...is there a particular story I should be aware of? (I love pale blue topaz.)
 

Sky56

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
1,037
I'm curious about the blue topaz story, too...and I wanted to add that poisoning from toxic metals is more common than you'd think.
I had a friend who almost died from mercury poisoning. He was an American who ate fish almost every day. A similar thing happened to actor Jeremy Piven.
 

Imdanny

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
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They labeled them "lead-free". It shows consciousness of guilt.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the point of view that says government should not regulate business.

Visions of libertarian utopia aside, I would not care if this woman did rot in jail.
 
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