How'd I do? Round 1.5ct for ~$10k

[throwin_stones]

Hey there, I'm in the market for a round 1.5ct around $10k for an engagement ring. I read up on diamond education and visited a few stores, but I ultimately took my search online because of the large inventories. My girlfriend would like the stone set in a platinum pave band, so I was looking for H+ color.

Yesterday I purchased this James Allen 1.51ct H VS1 for $10,770 before $260 in discounts.
- GIA; Excellent Cut; Faint Fluorescence; 7.27 - 7.33 x 4.55mm; T 57%; D 62.4%; CA: 36; PA: 40.8; G Med - S. Thick

How did I do? It does have the black crystal inclusion, but at VS1 I assume it's eye-clean. It also seems a little steep and only scores a 3.7 on the HCA with crown/pavilion angles (VG Fire/Spread; G Light Return / Scintillation). With c/p percentages it's 2.5 (VG across the board). Unfortunately I only learned about HCA after purchasing...

I have 30 days to return and did see this Blue Nile 1.51ct H VS1 for $10,893 before $183 in discounts.
- GIA; Excellent Cut; Faint Fluorescence; 7.48 - 7.51 x 4.46mm; T 59%; D 59.4%; CA: 32; PA: 41; G Med
- HCA (angles): 1.1 (EX Light Return / Fire / Spread; VG Scintillation); HCA (%): 1.3 (EX F/Sc/Sp; VG LR)

Do you think it's worth returning the James Allen to get the Blue Nile? What should I look for in person when I receive the James Allen this week? Other stone options / advice / opinions welcome!

 

[tkyasx78]

It is hard guess if that black inclusion on the table is going to be visible up close. I learned the hard (expensive) way for me years ago never to get a stone with a black spot on the surface . Even with ideal cutting I can see them when i hold it up close without a loupeand at first i try to convince myself that dont mind and then 6 months down the road i can see it every time i look at the ring.
For me, inclusions are ok, just not dark ones on the table. No one can see them a foot away but i look at my rings up close i dont hold them an arms distance away.
So anyway that is what i would check for- if the inclusion can be seen 3-4 inches away without a loupe. With it being on the surface i would be surprised if it is eye clean when you look at it upclose without a loupe.

 

[throwin_stones]

It is hard guess if that black inclusion on the table is going to be visible up close. I learned the hard (expensive) way for me years ago never to get a stone with a black spot on the surface . Even with ideal cutting I can see them when i hold it up close without a loupeand at first i try to convince myself that dont mind and then 6 months down the road i can see it every time i look at the ring.
For me, inclusions are ok, just not dark ones on the table. No one can see them a foot away but i look at my rings up close i dont hold them an arms distance away.
So anyway that is what i would check for- if the inclusion can be seen 3-4 inches away without a loupe. With it being on the surface i would be surprised if it is eye clean when you look at it upclose without a loupe.

Thank you for the reply! I'll definitely check if it's eye-clean up close without a loupe. If not then I'm inclined to return it. I'm probably just naive but I'm hoping VS1 may indicate it's eye-clean

The link for the alternative Blue Nile 1.51ct H VS1 didn't seem to work above -- trying again here. I'll mention another BN alternative: Blue Nile 1.51ct H SI1 -- its dimensions/proportions are very similar to the James Allen in original post, but this BN scores better on HCA (2.4 VG across board) vs. the JA (3.7) and it seems like an eye-clean SI1 without dark inclusions.

 

[rockysalamander]

I really don't like the angles on the James Allen 1.51ct H VS1. Way too deep and steep and you are losing spread for that weight and price.

This is a much better cut stone from JA, just ask for an Idealscope (IS).
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-1998196 {its only 0.04 mm less in spread due to the better proportions and lesser depth}

https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3544541 {need an IS}

If you want a shortcut, these are both super-ideal and have great numbers and light return. You get 100% of the cost of the diamond toward a future upgrade.

I need to feed my hungry boys, but I'll take a look at the BN options next. Maybe someone will beat me to it

 

[ratatat]

OP how good is your eyesight? Only to comment on the clarity not the cut, I would be very very very surprised if you could see that tiny spot in real life.
I had a VS1 with a small black mark under the table and I could never see it, and I am very short sighted. Granted it was smaller than yours...

 

[rockysalamander]

This is an interesting stone you found Blue Nile 1.51ct H VS1. Its a 60/60 stone with a low crown angle. So, it will really favor white light over fire, but will be spready for its weight. The stone will have a flat appearance from that side that rather polarizing.

All these need an ASET (or IS) to check performance.
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09213425 {This has a tiny table at 55% that together with the other angles will make this a more fiery diamond.}
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09212761

But, I these two are my favs from BN.
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09442781
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD03885026

You can take a short-cut in the diamond hunt, by going super ideal (plus get the best performance, you trade some size to stay in budget).
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3692937.htm

This is just to show the comparison of the diamond profiles. You can see the crown angle goes from very low on the left making the diamond flat and getting steeper to the right. The one on the far right is the kind of diamond more commonly recommended here on PS.

The color difference you see if a function of the lighting difference between JA and BN.

Any of these you want to pursue, you need to put on hold and the request an ASET (WF option aside). From JA, you can request 3 IS/email. I'm not sure about BN, but they've been a bit less generous of late.

 

[throwin_stones]

Any of these you want to pursue, you need to put on hold and the request an ASET (WF option aside). From JA, you can request 3 IS/email. I'm not sure about BN, but they've been a bit less generous of late.

Thank you for your time and recommendations! Of those you mentioned I'm most intrigued by this BN 1.51ct H VS2 (https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09213425). What do you think of this BN 1.51ct H SI1 (https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09471312)?

About holds / requesting ASET/IS from JA/BN: Should I call/email/chat or any will do? How quickly can they turn around an ASET/IS? And how many stones / how long will they hold? Thank you again!

 

[rockysalamander]

JA will let you hold 3 at a time. Just put them on hold (no cost) and ask the online person to request IS for each. If we are lucky, you'll get all the ones of interest.

BN - I'm not as familiar with their policy. So, why don't you just chat with the online chat person and then you can teach us? They have been less forthcoming with some, but I think that may have to do with where the stone is located.

BN 1.51ct H SI1 (https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09471312)? Too deep being over 62.3 and with a 35 crown angle, I'd like to see a 40.6 pavilion angle.

But, why did you like it? Spread in mm?

Here's a cheat sheet to keep you in "ideal" range.
table: 54-58
depth: 60-62.3
crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)
pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

Then, run those four numbers through the HCA tool and reject anything greater than 2.0 (1.0 not better than 1.9, this is used to simply reject stones). But, if you like 60/60 stones, this toll has some limitations, its requires more of an visual assessment and the IS/ASET.

Anything left, that meets your clarity and color needs is worthy of requesting images IS/ASET. But, if you look at super-ideal stones (WF ACA, Brian Gavin Select, GoodOldGold, HighPerformanceDiamonds, etc.), just look at the images and ignore the above process.

 

[throwin_stones]

I'll report back if I learn more about BN hold/ASET/IS process! I did like the spread of that BN 1.51 H SI1, but I forgot for a moment that it scored over 2 on HCA. You found what seems like a better option with that BN 1.51 H VS2 - I'll look into it!

I've been thinking H color since it'll be set with pave band. I have no/faint fluorescence in mind, just personal preference. Will vary carat for excellent cut, but if I can say I hit 1.5ct that'll make my girlfriend happy For clarity, eye-clean inclusions are fine if not likely to negatively affect brilliance, etc. Is there any downside to smaller table like the 55% mentioned? Thanks again for your help as I evaluate options

 

[rockysalamander]

I'll report back if I learn more about BN hold/ASET/IS process! I did like the spread of that BN 1.51 H SI1, but I forgot for a moment that it scored over 2 on HCA. You found what seems like a better option with that BN 1.51 H VS2 - I'll look into it!

I've been thinking H color since it'll be set with pave band. I have no/faint fluorescence in mind, just personal preference. Will vary carat for excellent cut, but if I can say I hit 1.5ct that'll make my girlfriend happy For clarity, eye-clean inclusions are fine if not likely to negatively affect brilliance, etc. Is there any downside to smaller table like the 55% mentioned? Thanks again for your help as I evaluate options

Good math to keep in mind....1.45, 1.46, 1.47, 1.48, 1.49 all round to 1.5

Tables between 52 and 58 can earn an GIA Ideal and even AGS0 (which is stricter). The table size with correct angles, affects the light return of the diamond. Smaller tables tend to have more fire and wide tables have more white light. So, there is a gradation between these. But, many PS member have a strong preference for fire over white light so will favor small tables.

Do you have an inspiration picture for the setting she liked and your budget for the setting?

 

[throwin_stones]

Good math to keep in mind....1.45, 1.46, 1.47, 1.48, 1.49 all round to 1.5
...
Do you have an inspiration picture for the setting she liked and your budget for the setting?

True - I'm definitely open to rounding up My setting budget is ~$3k. She liked #1 below in a local store. It's 22/.30ct (H/VS) priced at $2260 plus ~$300 for platinum. She also liked the "open cathedral" look of #2 with arches that flare up/out but do not connect to center (not sure how else to describe it). #2 is a thinner band (30/.17ct.) so if I go with that design and 22/.30 it may be somewhat customized. I'm open to buying online but haven't seen the particular look of #2.

#1
#2

 

[rockysalamander]

While we wait on diamond images...JA has better setting options for this style than BN, so let's hope some of the JA stones work as that will be easier if you like these settings.

Good match to #2. https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...ite-pave-cathedral-engagement-ring-item-50083

6-prong head with more detail. https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...ench-cut-six-prong-engagement-ring-item-49518

Good match to #1 with some added diamonds on the head. https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...pave-crown-diamond-engagement-ring-item-53057

Alternative to #1 (which I prefer the construction of). https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...gold-pave-countour-engagement-ring-item-58996

 

[throwin_stones]

@rockysalamander thank you for looking for similar settings!

I cancelled the James Allen order from my first post. Blue Nile seems to have better selection/prices, so I placed three stones on hold earlier this week. I followed up today and unfortunately it sounds like none of the suppliers can provide ASET/IS. The BN diamond expert relayed that the suppliers "do not have the equipment". My hold on #1/3/4 expires Saturday morning. I was offered #2 at a local jeweler. What does PriceScope think of my options? Any feedback/advice is appreciated!

#1 - 1.45ct H SI1 - $9,349 - https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09066399
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: Faint; Girdle: Thin-Med (2.5%)
Depth: 59.7%; Table: 59%; Crown: 34°; Pavilion: 40.8°; HCA: 1.3 (Ex-Ex-VG-Ex)
7.39 x 7.36 x 4.40mm; SI1 but seems to be eye-clean(?); Supplier in Israel

#2 - 1.40ct H SI1 - $9,646 (after discount & tax) - Local Jeweler: http://bit.ly/2gTVHpk
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: None; Girdle: Slightly Thick (4.0%)
Depth: 60.6%; Table: 58%; Crown: 33°; Pavilion: 40.8°; HCA: 0.9 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.24 x 7.21 x 4.38mm; SI1 but seems to be eye-clean; I saw this in person but expanded search hoping to get closer to 1.5ct

#3 - 1.51ct H VS2 - $10,352 - https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09213425
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: None; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (4.0%)
Depth: 62.2%; Table: 55%; Crown: 35°; Pavilion: 40.6°; HCA: 0.9 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.35 x 7.31 x 4.56mm; Supplier in Belgium

#4 - 1.50ct H VS1 - $10,885 - https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD08757645
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: Faint; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (4.0%)
Depth: 62.5%; Table: 56%; Crown: 35.5°; Pavilion: 40.6°; HCA: 1.4 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.31 x 7.27 x 4.56mm; Supplier in United States (NYC)

#1 #2
#3 #4

 

[throwin_stones]

What does PriceScope think of my options? Any feedback/advice is appreciated!

I'm leaning towards this one - it hits the 1.5ct I was hoping for and seems to have good specs:

#3 - 1.51ct H VS2 - $10,352 - https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09213425
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: None; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (4.0%)
Depth: 62.2%; Table: 55%; Crown: 35°; Pavilion: 40.6°; HCA: 0.9 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.35 x 7.31 x 4.56mm; Supplier in Belgium

 

[rockysalamander]

I'm leaning towards this one - it hits the 1.5ct I was hoping for and seems to have good specs:

#3 - 1.51ct H VS2 - $10,352 - https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09213425
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: None; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (4.0%)
Depth: 62.2%; Table: 55%; Crown: 35°; Pavilion: 40.6°; HCA: 0.9 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.35 x 7.31 x 4.56mm; Supplier in Belgium

I"m at work, so I can't look at the diamonds online (BN and my phone don't play well). By the numbers, I like #3 the best. But, the numbers are not so "safe" that I'd hand over the money without an IS/ASET -- especially for a GIA stone. Before you commit, I would discuss with BN. With JA, I know they will have you pay for the diamond, it gets delivered to them, then they will shoot an IS before they set the stone. If you like it, they set it. If not, they let you switch it within their stock. But, no full refunds. If BN has the same deal, maybe worth considering. But, you do get "committed" to them as your vendor. I find their stones tend toward more 60/60 style than PS-ideal preference.

These are all in the budget and would meet your 1.5 mark (with images on line to assure you that they are a good choice). If you have to commit to a vendor without seeing the performance of the diamond, I personally have more confidence with finding something at WF than BN. But, you have to make your own choice.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3202009.htm, 1.51 H SI1
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3770029.htm, 1.477 I SI1

 

[throwin_stones]

By the numbers, I like #3 the best. But, the numbers are not so "safe" that I'd hand over the money without an IS/ASET -- especially for a GIA stone.

Thanks for your continued help and advice! From your comment, I assume it's fairly common for stones with good numbers and sub-2.0 HCA to perform relatively poorly on light reports - enough to advise against buying. I managed to extend the BN hold till tomorrow Monday 10/23, but because they can't provide light reports I put three James Allen stones on hold:

#5 - 1.50ct H SI1 - $10,310 - https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3397775; GIA Report: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=7258232396
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: None; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (4.0%)
Depth: 62.5%; Table: 56%; Crown: 35.5°; Pavilion: 40.6°; HCA: 1.4 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.31 x 7.26 x 4.56mm; SI1 but seems eye-clean(?)
Supplier outside US; JA will check if light report can be provided

#6 - 1.50ct H SI1 - $10,610 - https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3377259; GIA Report: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=5253373873
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: Faint; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (3.5%)
Depth: 62.0%; Table: 56%; Crown: 35.5°; Pavilion: 40.6°; HCA: 1.3 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.34 x 7.31 x 4.54mm; SI1 but seems eye-clean(?)
Supplier in US; Light report can be provided

#7 - 1.50ct H SI1 - $10,610 - https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3377259; GIA Report: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6252657284
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: None; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (3.5%)
Depth: 60.4%; Table: 58%; Crown: 33.5°; Pavilion: 40.8°; HCA: 1.0 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.43 x 7.41 x 4.48mm; SI1 but seems eye-clean(?) - more table inclusions than others
Supplier in US; Light report can be provided

For now, do you see any red flags or favorites among them? Looking forward to light reports for #6/7 and hopefully #5 too!

#5
#6
#7

 

[throwin_stones]

I checked with BN rep but she hadn't heard of the arrangement to buy diamond, have ASET/IS done, then decide whether to keep it or use funds towards another stone. I hesitate with the WF options since I've read AGS can be less strict than GIA on Color/Clarity. Strangely the WF 1.51 only scores 3.3 on HCA but it's an Expert Selection so maybe that says more?

 

[rockysalamander]

I checked with BN rep but she hadn't heard of the arrangement to buy diamond, have ASET/IS done, then decide whether to keep it or use funds towards another stone. I hesitate with the WF options since I've read AGS can be less strict than GIA on Color/Clarity. Strangely the WF 1.51 only scores 3.3 on HCA but it's an Expert Selection so maybe that says more?

AGS is more strict on cut, while GIA is more strict on color. All else being equal on a diamond, I will personally choose AGS000 over GIAXXX. I have much more tolerance for color than poor cut.

The HCA tool is a coarse filter intended to narrow down, mostly, GIA XXX to those worth pursuing. Once you have a IS or ASET image, that trumps the HCA. HCA is predicting performance based on just 4 parameters (of many). IS or ASET is showing you actual performance.

I would not eliminate the WF stones, personally, both due to the greater performance that that both of these qualify for their tradeup policy.

#5 - The GIA reports lists additional clouds, which need to be evaluated by the gemologist. Clouds can make a stone cloudy (think of a drop of milk in water), but I think this will be eyeclean.

#6 - Same Comment as #1.

#7 - I think you put this one twice. Same diamond as #6.

#8 - https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2816420 {I like this one. Its bigger and has chubby arrows (better contrast=good). Medium flour can help lift color in uv light. Tiny inclusion under table, but since you gain so much size and has such nice arrows, I wanted to post.

I'd have all three stones (your two plus my one) put on hold and get the IS.

 

[throwin_stones]

#7 - I think you put this one twice. Same diamond as #6.

Sorry, I messed up the price and JA link for #7 above. Corrected below with IdealScope images for #6/7 - they requested IS for #5 and will let me know when they hear back! I kept it to 5/6/7 since I'd already put in the request. Not sure if I see much of a difference with my untrained eye - maybe #6 performs slightly better?

#6 - 1.50ct H SI1 - $10,610 - https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3377259; GIA Report: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=5253373873
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: Faint; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (3.5%)
Depth: 62.0%; Table: 56%; Crown: 35.5°; Pavilion: 40.6°; HCA: 1.3 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.34 x 7.31 x 4.54mm; SI1 but seems eye-clean(?); Supplier in US


#7 - 1.50ct H SI1 - $10,660 - https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3177368; GIA Report: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6252657284
Cut/Polish/Symmetry: Excellent; Fluorescence: None; Girdle: Med-S-Thick (3.5%)
Depth: 60.4%; Table: 58%; Crown: 33.5°; Pavilion: 40.8°; HCA: 1.0 (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG)
7.43 x 7.41 x 4.48mm; SI1 but seems eye-clean(?) - more table inclusions than others; Supplier in US

 

[shampoolady]

Just chiming in re: BN because last month I bought a stone through them.

They give you a 30 day evaluation period, and will pay return shipping if you don't want the stone. They shipped to me, and then I did the ASET/IS on my end (more accurately I then sent to GOG who did the images and handled the setting). BN also said I could ship the stone back to them for setting if I wanted one of their rings.

GOG was a dream to work with. They took ASET/IS of my stone as part of the appraisal fee, handled having the setting custom made by Vatche, and provided the most detailed appraisal I've even seen. They really deserve their stellar reputation.

 

[rockysalamander]

@gm89uk @diamondseeker2006 may see more. But I think they both pass and #6 may have an edge. I still like #8, maybe you have a friend who also needs a diamond and can request an aset from a different email account?