How to find a non branded H&A? AGS vs GIA

[slycatty]

Does anyone have suggestions on how to find a GIA certified non branded Hearts and Arrows stone?

I know it won''t have perfect Hearts and Arrows like the ACA or BGD stones, but I''d be able to get a better color/clarity/size for the price.

Can you basically see and evaulate the arrows through an idealscope image?

I wanted GIA because I read that they are better for color and clarity grading and there seems to be a bigger selection.

But I''m curious, on the AGS reports, does the AGSL computer generated light performance map reflect the arrows of the stone? How perfect does that image need to be to be a Hearts and Arrows stone?

Thanks for your help

 

[stone-cold11]

You will not be able to judge if a stone has the optical symm of a H&A unless you also managed to get the vendor to take a hearts image using a H&A scope.

 

[Dreamer_D]

The H&A patterning is either perfect in which case it is an H&A, or it is not perfect, in which case it is not an H&A. If it does not matter to you to have a branded H&A, then why bother with H&A at all? You do not need it to have great optics. You can get an IS image and it will help you detemrine light return.

What is your budget and desired specs? We can help you.

 

[slycatty]

Hi Dreamer,
I like seeing the arrows in my stone and knowing it''s well cut. I saw some HOF stones and really liked the patterns. I would assume some of the stones available on pricescope eventhough they aren''t branded as H&A would have a nice H&A pattern?

Hmm my every changing budget and specs...
14-18k
2.0-2.4 carats
min color I
min clarity SI
GIA XXX

 

[tyty333]

You can use the Cut Quality Seach. Select the exclude H&A. This should show you the HCA scores of well cut stones that are not
H&A (I think

). Is that what you are asking for?

Oh forgot...here is the link to the Cut Quality Search...
http://www.pricescope.com/sift.aspx

EDIT - I could not find any with your specs when excluding H&A...
I did find this one for $17somethingK which is an H&A. Not sure if it is eye-clean though.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6399/

These are also H&A...(thats all I can find)...and close to $18k
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-1040399230059
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-1040446860001
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-1040399230013

Give me some time and I'll check James Allen for you...

EDIT AGAIN -
This one might have some light leakage...need to ask for idealscope image
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1272745.asp (non-h&A, GIA)

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/29/2010 1:03:28 PM
Author: slycatty
Hi Dreamer,
I like seeing the arrows in my stone and knowing it''s well cut. I saw some HOF stones and really liked the patterns. I would assume some of the stones available on pricescope eventhough they aren''t branded as H&A would have a nice H&A pattern?

Hmm my every changing budget and specs...
14-18k
2.0-2.4 carats
min color I
min clarity SI
GIA XXX

Diamonds with ideal angles will also show arrows clear as day! The term "H&A" is reserved for those diamonds that have perfect hearts and arrows. You do not need it to see the arrows and to enjoy very nice optical symmetry and patterning of the facets.

I''ll see what I can find for you in a bit!

 

[Mrs W]

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1294388.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1285631.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1286309.asp No sure why it photographed that way?

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-981003.asp this on has a H&A inscription, I would ask fo hearts image

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1186685.asp

ask for IS images for the ones you are intesrested in also sorry links aren''t clickable but idk how to do that on my phone.

 

[slycatty]

Thanks guys for the help. That''s exactly what I''m looking for, a super well cut stone that shows the arrows. I didn''t realize H&A only included perfectly formed hearts and arrows.

 

[Shadowplay]

Date: 5/29/2010 6:00:53 PM
Author: Mrs W
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1286309.asp No sure why it photographed that way?

Just a heads up on this one... I think they have the wrong cert for the diamond they''re showing. JA''s page shows 2.14ct and the cert shows 2.205ct.

 

[Mrs W]

Thanks, that sucks tho bc those numbers were pretty good. The image looks like there's not a lot of leakage so I'd ask JA where the cert to the diamond photographed is. Thanks again, I get so caught up looking at the numbers on the diagram that I forget to look at the other stuff.

 

[Hest88]

A few of the James Allen ones look good. You can also try Whiteflash''s Premium Select category. Or, once you''ve scoped out how much diamond you can get for what price, settle on one or two vendors whose reviews make you feel comfortable, and tell you exactly that you''ve told us: you have X to spend, you''d like to see if you can get X carat, between X-X in color, X and above in clarity, you don''t want to pay for a branded H&A, you don''t need a perfect H&A, and you just want a great performer for your price. Then see what they can get you.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 5/29/2010 1:03:28 PM
Author: slycatty
Hi Dreamer,
I like seeing the arrows in my stone and knowing it''s well cut. I saw some HOF stones and really liked the patterns. I would assume some of the stones available on pricescope eventhough they aren''t branded as H&A would have a nice H&A pattern?

This logic is reasonable to me.

Dreamer, where you say:

"The H&A patterning is either perfect in which case it is an H&A, or it is not perfect, in which case it is not an H&A. If it does not matter to you to have a branded H&A, then why bother with H&A at all? You do not need it to have great optics. You can get an IS image and it will help you determine light return."

I think you''re being a little hard assed on this.

Either you willing to say, go for H&A and be an idiot for paying for a non-functional attribute, or...if you''ll grant that it''s reasonable to include H&A in your shopping list, then I think the desire to only go for a "perfect" presentation is not reasonable. The primarily accepted argument for H&A being desirable has to do with it being attributable to performance. If we say it impacts performance, then witnessing it, even with a notable "hit" to it...to my mind...has value. This makes sense to me.

From this point if view, and as Stone has recently commented, I think, JA provides today documented H&A, which folks on Pricescope these days seem to want to say. In the old days, when I bought from JA, they only claimed to have H&A style patterning. Anyway...

If you only buy the religion...this may not do it. But, because they DO have the pictures, this may do it after all.

Too bad this one make it to 2.0.

Best,

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/29/2010 8:38:47 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 5/29/2010 1:03:28 PM
Author: slycatty
Hi Dreamer,
I like seeing the arrows in my stone and knowing it''s well cut. I saw some HOF stones and really liked the patterns. I would assume some of the stones available on pricescope eventhough they aren''t branded as H&A would have a nice H&A pattern?

''The H&A patterning is either perfect in which case it is an H&A, or it is not perfect, in which case it is not an H&A. If it does not matter to you to have a branded H&A, then why bother with H&A at all? You do not need it to have great optics. You can get an IS image and it will help you determine light return.''

I think you''re being a little hard assed on this.

Either you willing to say, go for H&A and be an idiot for paying for a non-functional attribute, or...if you''ll grant that it''s reasonable to include H&A in your shopping list, then I think the desire to only go for a ''perfect'' presentation is not reasonable. The primarily accepted argument for H&A being desirable has to do with it being attributable to performance. If we say it impacts performance, then witnessing it, even with a notable ''hit'' to it...to my mind...has value. This makes sense to me.

From this point if view, and as Stone has recently commented, I think, JA provides today documented H&A, which folks on Pricescope these days seem to want to say. In the old days, when I bought from JA, they only claimed to have H&A style patterning. Anyway...

If you only buy the religion...this may not do it. But, because they DO have the pictures, this may do it after all.

Too bad this one make it to 2.0.

Best,

Hmmmm. I am not really sure I follow you

.

My first point is that in my opinion a diamond is either an H&A or it is not, the label is supposed to mean something -- that a stone shows perfectly formed hearts and arrows, as evident in the images. Therefore, it is a dichotomous categorization, it either is or it is not. We pay a premium to buy diamonds that have the attributes of true H&A and therefore I think the label should be reserved for such diamonds. Therefore, I do not think it is sensible or clear to talk about wanting a "near H&A". It is semantics to me, but an important distinction in my mind. The perfection of a true H&A may or may not truly affect optics -- seems to be variation in opinions of this -- but many people seek such diamonds because it is mind clean, because they like the ultra symmetry, because they like the brands. And they are willing to pay for those attributes.

The second point I am making is that you can of course find a diamond that is beautiful, shows nice arrow patterning and has great symmetry, angles, and optics. We see them here all the time. I suppose in your vernacular, these would ne "near H&As". These are the types of stones the OP is looking for if I understand correctly. Maybe it makes sense to adopt that language "near H&A" for such stones, but I think it confuses the matter to say that. These diamonds are assessed typically using IS and we do not take hearts pictures of them. So where does the term "near hearts" come from?

The OP was using the term to refer to diamonds that show the arrow pattern and have great optics, and I was trying to remove the concept of H&A from his quest since it is not relevant unless he wants a true H&A for the reasons I listed above.

Clear as mud, eh?

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 5/29/2010 10:20:15 PM
Author: dreamer_d
The perfection of a true H&A may or may not truly affect optics -- seems to be variation in opinions of this -- but many people seek such diamonds because it is mind clean, because they like the ultra symmetry, because they like the brands.

Well, I think it makes sense to vote, rather than hedge your bets. And anyway, by my thinking, it even hardly matters, if you acknowledge the reasonableness of wanting H&A at all.

A trait without an associated characteristic doesn''t have much value, to my mind.

And, once you stipulate that it DOES have value, than it''s reasonable to say that having most of that value is affirmatively better than having none of it.

In this case, I would say that it IS like horseshoes, and being close counts.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Dreamer - I think you are clear and I have to say ditto to both posts. There was no confusion in my mind and I feel it is a good recommendation to the poster.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/29/2010 10:48:04 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 5/29/2010 10:20:15 PM
Author: dreamer_d
The perfection of a true H&A may or may not truly affect optics -- seems to be variation in opinions of this -- but many people seek such diamonds because it is mind clean, because they like the ultra symmetry, because they like the brands.

Well, I think it makes sense to vote, rather than hedge your bets. And anyway, by my thinking, it even hardly matters, if you acknowledge the reasonableness of wanting H&A at all.

A trait without an associated characteristic doesn''t have much value, to my mind.

And, once you stipulate that it DOES have value, than it''s reasonable to say that having most of that value is affirmatively better than having none of it.

In this case, I would say that it IS like horseshoes, and being close counts.

I think I listed a few characteristics that I think H&As undoubtedly have -- better symmetry, mind clean, distinctive facet patterning. Just because none of those has been proven definitively to affect light performance (though there are many on the boards who think they do, and facet patterning is certainly an aspect of optics) does not mean they are not valid associated characteristics

.

But I think we are arguing the same point. I think close counts in terms of functional aspects or practical aspects of buying a diamond for people who like the appearance of arrows and the facet pattern associated with H&A. I do not think close counts when it comes to the actual label "H&A", which should be reserved for diamonds that qualify. Elitist, maybe, but definitely clear for the consumer.

 

[Regular Guy]

Thanks, Dreamer, I think I agree with your last statement, but less with your first...

Date: 5/29/2010 12:38:52 PM
Author: dreamer_d
The H&A patterning is either perfect in which case it is an H&A, or it is not perfect, in which case it is not an H&A. If it does not matter to you to have a branded H&A, then why bother with H&A at all? You do not need it to have great optics. You can get an IS image and it will help you detemrine light return.

What is your budget and desired specs? We can help you.

I am aware that H&A is controversial.

But...I think the point is important...so long as we are actually talking about it. I don''t see diamond or affiicianodo types or engineering types proclaiming that H&A has a positive effect, but that it only actually works in any way if you get it just right, etc.

Frankly, the opposite...our engineering types (like Serg) and others have suggested we might pay too much attention to IS, which isn''t as good a predictor of performance as we might like to think.

So, to the extent that we have "incremental" evaluators, including IS & H&A....unless we wish to boycott the tools in favor of expert evaluators, like Brian & Jonathan, etc., then it is likely that Stone''s proposition that JA''s presentation can have a positive meaning for us, and we can trust ourselves...especially when money IS an object.

 

[Mrs W]

Date: 5/29/2010 7:17:50 PM
Author: Hest88
A few of the James Allen ones look good. You can also try Whiteflash''s Premium Select category. Or, once you''ve scoped out how much diamond you can get for what price, settle on one or two vendors whose reviews make you feel comfortable, and tell you exactly that you''ve told us: you have X to spend, you''d like to see if you can get X carat, between X-X in color, X and above in clarity, you don''t want to pay for a branded H&A, you don''t need a perfect H&A, and you just want a great performer for your price. Then see what they can get you.

Ditto on the WF Premeium select rcommendarion. Also, check out Brian Gavin select diamonds.