- Joined
- Jul 12, 2004
- Messages
- 4,060
Top ideal H&A G/H VS2 stone with a small table + a high crown. If I had a lot of $$$ I'd go F VS1.
What is happening with your new Octavia?
How much are you willing to compromise for a bargain?
- Thread starter JPie
- Start date
What is happening with your new Octavia?
LBeezy34
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2018
- Messages
- 58
If there's one C to NEVER compromise on is Cut. Triple EX cut will make rock size bigger, make yellower colours look whiter and of course the bling bling! Cut can improve other C's.
I bought a 0.83 carat (luckily she knows 0.8 carats is her max size) colour H.
I was able to drop the colour and carat (had to buy VVS2 as gf is eye and mind clean).
Guess what? It looks the same size as her friend's 1 carat (deep & steep) poor cut while also looking clearer than the milky larger one!
Note: ignore my ugly man finger. I'm still yet to propose...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 56,298
I am not reading the other replies until I reply so I am not influenced in any way. It depends on the specific stone we are talking about because old cuts are different than modern cuts or newly cut stones made to look like old cuts. Old cuts are their own genre IMO and I do not consider it a sacrifice in any way not to have an ideally cut (as measured by today's cut stones) true old cut stone. I adore their special wonkiness and everything about them. My personal preference is very different than someone else's personal preference and with old cuts there simply (IMO) is no right or wrong. You love and adore what you love and adore.
The perfect marriage of old cut beauty is chunky facets with even light play and a bright beautiful (however one defines it) stone. The color play, the light play and the symmetrical facets all are important and to me one thing I learned is J (and K and L) with VS clarity is my general sweet spot for old cuts (though there are definitely some exceptions!) and the numbers don't matter to me with old cuts. It is what my eye sees over all else. Over the ASET, over the cert, etc. How the stone performs in all different environments indoors and out. This is what matters to me. And at J the tint all but disappears to my eye and that works for me. And the bigger OECs allow me to see those delicious facets up close without the need for glasses. And that makes me happy too.
And part of this decision is a journey as we get to know what we love and adore as it is fluid and changing as we learn more. At each stage I got what I loved at the time (and could afford) and it brought me to what I know is my final diamond for my ER.
With modern cut stones CUT is king and queen and all in between and color is high on the list right after that. G is my sweet spot for MRB (and VS clarity). Higher color in MRBs work for me too though but nothing lower than G for me for MRB.
One of my favorite sayings is "A deal is only a deal if you are getting exactly what you want"
and also:
Off to read the replies now.
The perfect marriage of old cut beauty is chunky facets with even light play and a bright beautiful (however one defines it) stone. The color play, the light play and the symmetrical facets all are important and to me one thing I learned is J (and K and L) with VS clarity is my general sweet spot for old cuts (though there are definitely some exceptions!) and the numbers don't matter to me with old cuts. It is what my eye sees over all else. Over the ASET, over the cert, etc. How the stone performs in all different environments indoors and out. This is what matters to me. And at J the tint all but disappears to my eye and that works for me. And the bigger OECs allow me to see those delicious facets up close without the need for glasses. And that makes me happy too.
And part of this decision is a journey as we get to know what we love and adore as it is fluid and changing as we learn more. At each stage I got what I loved at the time (and could afford) and it brought me to what I know is my final diamond for my ER.
With modern cut stones CUT is king and queen and all in between and color is high on the list right after that. G is my sweet spot for MRB (and VS clarity). Higher color in MRBs work for me too though but nothing lower than G for me for MRB.
One of my favorite sayings is "A deal is only a deal if you are getting exactly what you want"
and also:
Off to read the replies now.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
- Messages
- 5,847
If I'm buying for my girl....
F+ , VS2+, AGS000, true H&A symmetry and would not be concerned over insignificant size differences at all. Next stone I will likely be very picky as I've come to love 54-55 tables, 34.5 crown and 40.7-40.8 pavilion. Her color sensitivity may push color higher than my own preference.
When recommending to others it depends on their budget and sensitivities and preferences. As a general rule I am always trying to maximize cut, color, clarity and size within their specific parameters. I enjoy finding max value so many times a G/H and very eye clean and mind clean SI1 is what I target.
I think you see many people going down on color and clarity on this forum because so much emphasis is put on cut. A well cut stone appears more white than average stones so you can drop color and increase another area. Also inclusions are looked at more critically in regards to color, location and if they affect light performance. When buying a super ideal, this vetting is already done for you to a large degree so it makes it easier to get warm and fuzzy and downgrading characteristics that are sometimes emphasized on the open market.
But we need to understand why. IMO, the simple answer is (many) consumers just aren't educated well enough to make a good decision so they are increasing the various C's in an attempt to get a great stone. They lack the ability to articulate and determine a great cut stone so increasing the other C's are a security blanket of sorts.
F+ , VS2+, AGS000, true H&A symmetry and would not be concerned over insignificant size differences at all. Next stone I will likely be very picky as I've come to love 54-55 tables, 34.5 crown and 40.7-40.8 pavilion. Her color sensitivity may push color higher than my own preference.
When recommending to others it depends on their budget and sensitivities and preferences. As a general rule I am always trying to maximize cut, color, clarity and size within their specific parameters. I enjoy finding max value so many times a G/H and very eye clean and mind clean SI1 is what I target.
I think you see many people going down on color and clarity on this forum because so much emphasis is put on cut. A well cut stone appears more white than average stones so you can drop color and increase another area. Also inclusions are looked at more critically in regards to color, location and if they affect light performance. When buying a super ideal, this vetting is already done for you to a large degree so it makes it easier to get warm and fuzzy and downgrading characteristics that are sometimes emphasized on the open market.
But we need to understand why. IMO, the simple answer is (many) consumers just aren't educated well enough to make a good decision so they are increasing the various C's in an attempt to get a great stone. They lack the ability to articulate and determine a great cut stone so increasing the other C's are a security blanket of sorts.
LBeezy34
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2018
- Messages
- 58
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2018
- Messages
- 713
I compromised on color with Eleanor. But aside from being a J, she was everything I wanted in a stone and setting. If I could have designed her myself, I would have gone higher in color (F/G) as the tint bugs me at times. And then other times, so is clear as can be with not a hint of color. So I guess color has been my biggest compromise recently.
In the past, before I knew anything about diamonds, I was all about the size. My MRB from my late husband is a 0.72 ct I "good" cut. I wanted as close to a carat as I could get. And that stone, while incredibly sentimental, is UGLY. It is very "dead". But at the time I got it, I didn't know what a well cut diamond could do. So I sacrificed everything for size (like a lot of uneducated buyers). This is the one stone I would love to have recut (to maximize its undiscovered beauty) and our daughter has requested that it be set into a pendant (which will go to here once she is an adult).
In the past, before I knew anything about diamonds, I was all about the size. My MRB from my late husband is a 0.72 ct I "good" cut. I wanted as close to a carat as I could get. And that stone, while incredibly sentimental, is UGLY. It is very "dead". But at the time I got it, I didn't know what a well cut diamond could do. So I sacrificed everything for size (like a lot of uneducated buyers). This is the one stone I would love to have recut (to maximize its undiscovered beauty) and our daughter has requested that it be set into a pendant (which will go to here once she is an adult).
- Joined
- May 20, 2016
- Messages
- 5,105
I'm very similar to @missy. But, I love all the old cuts and their wonkiness and really don't mind a lot of visible color. I'm pretty forgiving of clarity and damage in old cuts. Its part of their charm and really what I grew up falling in love with. I have sent a small stone to be repaired due to a chip to make it safer for the stone. So, I'd say the compromises come between what I like (which is a lot of things) and what I'm willing to pay.
In modern cuts, I find certain GIA colors wishy washy and will personally avoid them. Either its "white" to most observers or "not white." I love the unusual, so often go for brown and grey body colors. I'd love more colored diamonds (DBL had the most gorgeous green diamond a while back), but budget precludes anything of the size I lust after. The precision and quality of the cut matters a lot to me in moderns (and modern cut antiques). The facet structure really falls apart and looks chaotic and meh when the angles are not right. My wedding band was made when we had little money and I have wishes to replace my well-cut melee with some super-ideal melee. So, compromise for me is usually on clarity. If I can't get what I want in size, I'll just wait.
In modern cuts, I find certain GIA colors wishy washy and will personally avoid them. Either its "white" to most observers or "not white." I love the unusual, so often go for brown and grey body colors. I'd love more colored diamonds (DBL had the most gorgeous green diamond a while back), but budget precludes anything of the size I lust after. The precision and quality of the cut matters a lot to me in moderns (and modern cut antiques). The facet structure really falls apart and looks chaotic and meh when the angles are not right. My wedding band was made when we had little money and I have wishes to replace my well-cut melee with some super-ideal melee. So, compromise for me is usually on clarity. If I can't get what I want in size, I'll just wait.
. She saw a GIA D IF in-store and said she saw color in that.
Honestly, the more I've dealt with it, the more I'm sick about it. If I had a re-do button I'd just buy a damn D/E and be done with it. Yes, it's becoming a sore spot.
Maybe she mistakes colour flashes or reflected light colour for tint? That said, I’m very colour sensitive and with my very cool colouring I don’t suit warm white. I struggle with anything lower than a G. I have found that I’m better sacrificing size to keep colour, cut, and reasonable clarity (I’m ok with eye clean, which to me is usually SI1 in small stones and sadly much more stringent in larger stones). I would not personally be happy dropping to a lower colour or clarity for the sake of size. I’m like this with other things too. I’d rather have smaller, but better quality, regardless of it being a cs, a diamond, or pearls.
- Joined
- May 20, 2016
- Messages
- 5,105
I think a lot of color sensitive folks would agree with your post.
The context of this conversation which is really asking us about how we, individual, assess value in the context balancing the 4 Cs, this statement is fine.
As an aside, I find the word "quality" stated in this way for a more general context really annoying. The world quality is inherently a value judgment by the person stating it. An E and F diamond has no inherent "quality" over a J or K or Z color diamond. People decide on quality filtered through our own experiences, judgment, cultural context, and bias. We often speak as if quality is fixed, but it is not. Think of cars. Imagine you have a Ferrari and a Honda Civic. Most would say the Ferrari is a higher quality car. But, if you value reliability and low mechanical costs, the Honda Civic has much more value and thus quality. Ok...detour over.
The context of this conversation which is really asking us about how we, individual, assess value in the context balancing the 4 Cs, this statement is fine.
As an aside, I find the word "quality" stated in this way for a more general context really annoying. The world quality is inherently a value judgment by the person stating it. An E and F diamond has no inherent "quality" over a J or K or Z color diamond. People decide on quality filtered through our own experiences, judgment, cultural context, and bias. We often speak as if quality is fixed, but it is not. Think of cars. Imagine you have a Ferrari and a Honda Civic. Most would say the Ferrari is a higher quality car. But, if you value reliability and low mechanical costs, the Honda Civic has much more value and thus quality. Ok...detour over.
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2004
- Messages
- 4,060
Speaking of color sensitivity, you can test your eyes with this:
http://www.colormunki.com/game/huetest_kiosk
http://www.colormunki.com/game/huetest_kiosk
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2018
- Messages
- 4,185
Hurry up so we can see pics of it on her hand!
I'm still yet to propose...
Well stated!
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 33,852
Yoram have no luck finding a rough yet.
He said it is hard to out bid the big boys b/c they can buy 20 big carat roughs at a time. They can also yield more weight from the same rough by cutting MRBs, hoping to hear some good news soon. When we are limiting our discussions to jewelry, the decision point is typically between size and other factors that are generally accepted markers of perceived quality (in other words, aspects of the item that the general public and hence the various grading systems have decided are important markers of perceived quality - which is why they determine perceived value and price). For diamonds this is cut, clarity, and colour. This is about the same for CS, with various other treatments also coming into play, depending on the type of stone. For pearls, things like surface quality, luster, body colour/overtone, and shape come into play. For gold, this is purity and (sometimes) quality of workmanship. So you may find the word quality annoying, but that doesn’t change the fact that as a global market, there are certain aspects of stones or jewels that are prized above others, which then determines the perceived quality, value, and price of an item on the open market.
I personally would not want to wear heavily included, dog pee coloured, poorly cut stones of large size (which we have all seen sold in mall stores to people who value size over the attractiveness of the stone). I would also not want a heavily included CS with a large window and poor colour saturation, no matter how big it might be. Nor would I prioritize heavily blemished big honking pearls with poor luster over a more modestly sized strand that is of objectively better quality based on the determinants of said quality that most gem grading systems (and the public at large) have decided are important. At some point, things stop being worth much (or attractive IMO) when you go beyond a certain point for quantity over quality. Where that line is is clearly different for everybody. But I’m also not American, and norms/value systems where I live are quite different then the US when it comes to luxury goods. So for me personally, when we are talking about jewelry, if I compromise too much on quality, it doesn’t end up being a bargain because 1) I won’t value it or think highly of it, 2) I know others will be thinking the same thing (yes, jewelry judging is a thing) even though they’d be too polite to say anything to my face, 3) I’m unlikely to wear it much because it does not feel the same for me to wear something that I don’t love and value as much as a high quality piece, and 4) I’d eventually replace it anyway at a financial loss to have something that I value and love.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
- Messages
- 5,847
The above made me literally LOL.
I understand what you are saying, especially in regards to a more broad open market. However, with that said, we should all want GIA certified stones as that cert appeals the mass market as well and consequently would be easier to move as it's perceived as "higher quality".
I know this isn't true, and can tell you the reasons why AGS is better. But regardless, in an open broad market the perception is GIA is more valuable and trusted.
I think @rockysalamander's point was that quality is largely based on the individuals preference. Some people like and prefer "dog pee colored" stones as you referenced earlier. Therefore, in their value system, a higher D-F color may not be appealing to them in the least and not something they consider quality. Although probably at some point, most people realize that their preference may not be the most valuable in an open market, but is the most desirable to them.
I'm that way with cars -- black is my favorite color, so if I see a hot rod in black I am more prone to buy it than one in white for instance. To me, black is a more valuable vehicle if all other attributes are identical. However, I'm also strongly aware of my bias and I'm okay with it to be honest.
atp223
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2011
- Messages
- 290
While I prefer to shop from the "super ideal" vendors (both my original e-ring and replacement e-ring were from BGD), I have been willing to "compromise" by shopping with IDJ for smaller pieces (studs, eternity band, pendant) as long as Yekutiel does all the light performance tests and tells me the stones are beautiful.
I also always "compromise" on color to go bigger - I exclusively own I-colored AGS stones and J-colored GIA stones (and actually my 0.8 ctw BGD "starter" studs are Js) because they look perfectly white to me. Perhaps not "icy," but totally beautiful and absolutely white enough.
I also always "compromise" on color to go bigger - I exclusively own I-colored AGS stones and J-colored GIA stones (and actually my 0.8 ctw BGD "starter" studs are Js) because they look perfectly white to me. Perhaps not "icy," but totally beautiful and absolutely white enough.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2017
- Messages
- 3,078
I agree though that quality is subjective though to RS' point....there was a poster a while back whose wife specifically wanted a salt & pepper stone. She didn't value what most people consider the markers of quality in a diamond. Baroque and fireball pearls are considered desirable these days, they used to be considered garbage. These definitions are socially constructed and they change over time. At the end of the day, we're talking about rocks that we tie to our fingers and necks.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
- Messages
- 5,847
Interesting. I might be slightly sensitive.....scored an 8.
Apparently 0 is perfect, and 378079 is blind as a bat.
Screen cap of results:
Screen cap as early as I thought to capture a "starting point":
Screen cap when I was done:
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2010
- Messages
- 2,534
I agree though that quality is subjective though to RS' point....there was a poster a while back whose wife specifically wanted a salt & pepper stone. She didn't value what most people consider the markers of quality in a diamond. Baroque and fireball pearls are considered desirable these days, they used to be considered garbage. These definitions are socially constructed and they change over time. At the end of the day, we're talking about rocks that we tie to our fingers and necks.
*Everything* is subjective. Quality is only an idea, as is value. Nothing in this world has inherent value. Every value judgement has been socially constructed. It's basic philosophy 101. But the original question wasn't asking for an existential philosophical debate on the nature of value (at least I don't think it was - maybe I missed something). The OP specifically asked: "to what extent in the past that you've compromised on the 4Cs in exchange for value, whether you have any regrets, and how you decide if something is enough of a bargain." I gave my opinion based on my personal experience. YMMV.
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2008
- Messages
- 13,352
I got a 2!Interesting. I might be slightly sensitive.....scored an 8.
Apparently 0 is perfect, and 378079 is blind as a bat.
Screen cap of results:
Screen cap as early as I thought to capture a "starting point":
Screen cap when I was done:
The above made me literally LOL.
I understand what you are saying, especially in regards to a more broad open market. However, with that said, we should all want GIA certified stones as that cert appeals the mass market as well and consequently would be easier to move as it's perceived as "higher quality".
I think you overestimate the knowledge base of the average consumer. I would bet most people wouldn't know the difference between GIA, AGS, EGL or a faked certificate from someone's home office printer. I think things get trickier here because people are a bit obsessed (not that there's anything wrong with that), have given things a LOT of consideration, and have weighed for themselves what they do and don't value. But knowing your market probably helps if you intend to sell your stone. Asian markets for sure would prefer the higher colour, higher clarity stones in comparison to the US where size tends to rule for most people. Even still, buying retail and selling used always nets a loss (unless you happen to be famous and can cash in on the collectible nature of the item).
holeydonut
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2018
- Messages
- 263
And if she isn't happy you aren't happy...
LBeezy34
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2018
- Messages
- 58
Hurry up so we can see pics of it on her hand!
Settle down mate got 1 shot at this...
Well stated!
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2018
- Messages
- 4,185
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2009
- Messages
- 13,280
Cut,size, color, clarity is usually how I rank things. In MRBs I like them white and I can regularly see tint in I colored stones but in OECs I actually love visible color and will happily stare at M and lower stones. I don’t mind eye clean SI1 or 2 as long as I can’t see anything with the naked eye. Also I m not going to wash my diamonds daily or every time dust lands on it and I don’t really have that “mind clean” requirement.
My dream “bargain” right now I an M or lower 8mm oec under 8k. A girl can dream right?
My dream “bargain” right now I an M or lower 8mm oec under 8k. A girl can dream right?
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2012
- Messages
- 12,692
And what an expensive lesson this is.
_dracarys_
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2017
- Messages
- 204
My sacrifices are color and carat. Color because I don't think I'm color sensitive; I wore a low colored diamond for years (it wasn't certified, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the I it was advertised as). Carat because I can't yet afford the giant rock I want 
I'm planning a small WF ACA here in the near future. My original diamond was purchased many years ago before I discovered PS and before I knew anything about diamonds. We went for size alone and I grew to dislike my stone very much because the cut is terrible and there was little, if any, sparkle. I still have it because it's sentimental to me, but I will be making a pendant out of it. I do have an heirloom ring from my grandmother, but it's a marquise and I really want a round for my wedding finger. I'm turning 40 in January - what better gift than a super ideal is there?!
I'm planning a small WF ACA here in the near future. My original diamond was purchased many years ago before I discovered PS and before I knew anything about diamonds. We went for size alone and I grew to dislike my stone very much because the cut is terrible and there was little, if any, sparkle. I still have it because it's sentimental to me, but I will be making a pendant out of it. I do have an heirloom ring from my grandmother, but it's a marquise and I really want a round for my wedding finger. I'm turning 40 in January - what better gift than a super ideal is there?!
Yup. Talk to me about my pearl collection....
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2012
- Messages
- 12,692
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings - 04/14
300x240.png)