how many PSers graduated from an Ivy League school?

[amc80]

No Ivy League school for me. I grew up in California, so I had the advantage of having the UC system available to me, at resident rates. It's hard to rationalize paying for a private school when several of the UCs are so highly ranked.

I did end up scoring high enough on my GREs to where I could have gotten in to just about any graduate economics program I wanted. I ended up staying at my school and getting my Masters...for a total of about $5k.

 

[Haven]

A word on grade inflation: the thing that stands out is that fewer kids flunk out of prestigious schools. Is that because of grade inflation, or because they tend to be high achievers in the first place? Nobody knows. But it does tend to be a slightly different demographic than the one you imagine when you think "Ivy" - not the A students, but the C students.

I wonder this, myself.

I teach in a community college, and our students come in with a really wide variety of skills and abilities. The most striking thing about our traditional student population, however, is that they typically lack in the area of student skills. For example, many of them do not have study habits, nor do they know how to begin developing them. My guess is that the majority of students who attend prestigious schools with rigorous entrance requirements also happen to be sophisticated students who possess the student skills and habits they need to do well in a rigorous academic environment.

 

[natascha]

The non-benefit is that with the state taking up all educational costs, someone is still paying for it somewhere,somehow. Bankrupt, anyone? Default? We are getting there--but Europe is getting there way faster. Because of the idea that the state needs to pay for every single for everybody to make things 'fair'--and no idea that money does not come out of thin air and that you pay the paper eventually.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, which I have always felt were thoughtful and intelligent. I was therefore surprised to read this. Do you honestly believe what you are saying here?

Yes, there are several European countries rapidly approaching financial meltdown. To draw the conclusion that this is due to social security systems and free education is controversial to say the least. A big problem in this crisis has been the lack of forethought over where the money is going to come from in the future. The consumption levels during the last decade were just not feasible under the existing conditions. The problem was not that European states spending to much on public welfare. The problem is that many states and people were spending money under ridiculously optimistic hopes about the future, subprime anyone? If the problem was the idea that the state should pay for education, healthcare, etc then Sweden would be one of the countries fastest approaching meltdown. Reality is a bit different though. Sweden currently has a lot higher GDP growth rate than the US, oh and we also have lower unemployment which is quite telling since in normal situations it is the other way around.

 

[MsP]

(removed)

 

[sillyberry]

::snip:: You are misinformed and you do not know what evidence is--or how to properly process information.

The selection process at my Ivy League college is crazy--because so many super well qualified students apply that they must end up failing to select many who would do very well there. It is arbitrary in the sense that they must decide how to pick the cream of the cream, not arbitrary in the sense that they are just randomly choosing anyone on the basis of no merit.
If you get in, you will get need-based aid.

Once these excellent students arrive, they must grade on a curve so that they do not all get A's. A person who gets a C in most of the class would be off the charts at most other places.(Though not all--there are excellent US schools that are not in the Ivy League).

I say you do not know what evidence is because you are presenting as proof of your thesis ONE article from the NYTimes, from ONE book which studied 200 colleges--not only the Ivy League--and did not take into account such factors as the growing number of students applying to the IVY which makes them more and more selective as they have a much larger pool of extremely well qualified applicants to select from than they did in 1940. As the people who enter get more and more qualified, yes, a larger number of them will get A's, that are well deserved. The same factors are not taking place at all other private colleges--there are some that you just get into because your parents can pay, and others that you get into because of your athletic ability because they are sports schools, etc. etc. The people who wrote the book (at least as it is described in the article) are lumping together a lot of unlike schools to make their point. And you are using this article, which is not specifically about the Ivy League and does not address their particular situation, to say that the Ivies have grade inflation, something that you clearly know nothing about.

This is not properly processing information. :: snip::

Please forgive me for cutting down the length of your post; I'm just quoting what I'm responding to.

BlackJade, this is an internet forum. I am fully aware of what "evidence" is -- posting an article was not supposed to be the end-all-be-all of an argument, but demonstrative of some expansive research done on the topic. If you look below, I've linked to individual grade data from each of the eight Ivy League schools. I'm not saying they are a perfect study, but they're illuminating.

However, I am not sure where you are getting your information. First, it appears to be entirely anecdotal to your experience that school was really hard when you attended and still is really hard and full of super smart people. I'm not disputing either of those things. Second, it's flat out wrong to say that all Ivy League classes grade on a strict curve. I would love to see your evidence for this as you have not posted any evidence whatsoever. Probably some classes and professors at some institutions grade on a strict curve, but at a minimum your statement is overbroad. Regardless, it is contradictory to say that a larger number of student will get As because they deserve them while in the same breath saying there is a strict curve.

I'm not knocking the Ivies. You can get a great education and have a great experience at any of the eight member schools. A high proportion of my colleagues attended Ivy League schools (either for undergrad or law school or both) and other amazing schools. I attended fairly prestigious (FWIW) institutions of higher learning for both undergrad and law school (Wellesley College and the University of Chicago, respectively) and both of them have grade inflation. Including the UofC Law School, which does grade on a curve and is particularly known for its "rigor" -- there is still grade creep. Even knowing this I still think I attended damn good schools -- I don't think grade inflation correlates to how good a school may be. But it doesn't help to just deny its existence. I've known some brilliant people to come out of Ivy League Universities, I've known some really smart people, some smart people, but I've also known some duds. I've also known some brilliant people who came out of large state schools, small private schools, and altogether crappy schools, and I've known duds from those places.

Grade Data For Ivy League Schools:
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Harvard
University of Pennsylanvia
Princeton
Yale

The Truth About Harvard, Ross Douthat (the part about Professor Mansfield is particularly relevant). Allow me to pull out a quote (referencing a Boston Globe article on Harvard grading): This was somewhat unfair—if only because, as the article made clear, Harvard was hardly alone. Still, its numbers were particularly staggering. More than 90 percent of the class of 2001 had earned grade-point averages of B-minus or higher. Half of all the grades given the year before were As or A-minuses; only six percent were C-pluses or lower. By way of comparison, in 1940 C-minus was the most common GPA at Harvard, and in 1955 just 15 percent of undergraduates had a GPA of B-plus or higher.

It's unclear to me why you're taking this so personally. I'm not criticizing the education you received or your level of intelligence. I would appreciate it if you would afford me the same courtesy.

 

[Black Jade]

I apologize for being rude. Very rude, in fact.
I am in fact taking this discussion too personally, so will drop out here and let those who are being civil continue.
I am under a certain amount of stress at the moment--not that that is an excuse for being rude and uncivil. Please excuse me.

 

[iugurl]

I apologize for being rude. Very rude, in fact.
I am in fact taking this discussion too personally, so will drop out here and let those who are being civil continue.
I am under a certain amount of stress at the moment--not that that is an excuse for being rude and uncivil. Please excuse me.

I find it quite rude that people have to barge into a nice, civil thread and start putting down Ivy League schools (that it is so easy to pass, especially if you are well off, among other things).

 

[Pandora II]

The non-benefit is that with the state taking up all educational costs, someone is still paying for it somewhere,somehow. Bankrupt, anyone? Default? We are getting there--but Europe is getting there way faster. Because of the idea that the state needs to pay for every single for everybody to make things 'fair'--and no idea that money does not come out of thin air and that you pay the paper eventually.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, which I have always felt were thoughtful and intelligent. I was therefore surprised to read this. Do you honestly believe what you are saying here?

Yes, there are several European countries rapidly approaching financial meltdown. To draw the conclusion that this is due to social security systems and free education is controversial to say the least. A big problem in this crisis has been the lack of forethought over where the money is going to come from in the future. The consumption levels during the last decade were just not feasible under the existing conditions. The problem was not that European states spending to much on public welfare. The problem is that many states and people were spending money under ridiculously optimistic hopes about the future, subprime anyone? If the problem was the idea that the state should pay for education, healthcare, etc then Sweden would be one of the countries fastest approaching meltdown. Reality is a bit different though. Sweden currently has a lot higher GDP growth rate than the US, oh and we also have lower unemployment which is quite telling since in normal situations it is the other way around.

Please don't think every country in Europe is Greece.

 

[susief]

I normally lurk rather than post, but had to chip in here.

I graduated from Oxford University. I avoid telling anyone this in real life. Why? Because a surprising number of people will immediately become defensive, and start running down Oxford/Cambridge, explaining why they didn't want to go there, telling me stories about acquaintances who bought there way in there, or so-and-so from their last job who went to Oxford and was completely useless. Just from the mere statement of fact of what my university was, before I've said another word.

My sister went to our local university (Newcastle) and will proudly wear her university sweatshirt out and about. I wouldn't dare.

I guess it's a similar situation for Ivy League in the US. I wish we could all just be proud of our own alma maters, and respect that other people are rightly proud of theirs.

 

[Pandora II]

I normally lurk rather than post, but had to chip in here.

I graduated from Oxford University. I avoid telling anyone this in real life. Why? Because a surprising number of people will immediately become defensive, and start running down Oxford/Cambridge, explaining why they didn't want to go there, telling me stories about acquaintances who bought there way in there, or so-and-so from their last job who went to Oxford and was completely useless. Just from the mere statement of fact of what my university was, before I've said another word.

My sister went to our local university (Newcastle) and will proudly wear her university sweatshirt out and about. I wouldn't dare.

I guess it's a similar situation for Ivy League in the US. I wish we could all just be proud of our own alma maters, and respect that other people are rightly proud of theirs.

You should go and work in politics in Westminster... no-one asks which university you went to, just which college - as in which Oxford college!

That is so sad that people do that though. There is a big thing about deriding sucess in the UK - especially success of the intellectual/academic type. Fine to be good at football or singing or even embarrassing your self on Reality TV.

Personally I would have liked to have gone to Oxbridge - most of my family and DH's family were there. I got the grades, but my school didn't trust me enough to let me apply (my predications were 3 A's or 3 U's depending on how I felt on the morning...) and I had a place to do Archaeology at Newcastle (yay for your sister!) which I then transfered after a year to do Textiles down in Southampton.

Mind you, even though I got 3 top grades in academic subjects (Latin, Biology, Ancient History) and could have got into pretty much anywhere, the looks I get when I say I went to Art College are something else. I've spent many years feeling that I have to prove to many people that I'm not some kind of monkey that can hold a paintbrush.

When I was in Italy, they refused to accept that I had a degree at all - and therefore give me the right pay grade - and yet another girl who joined the company who had a degree in Business Administration from a 5th rate "university" was oohed and aahed over for her degree and given a higher position and pay-grade than I was (yes I eventually sued them...)

So, basically best to be totally average in all things - except kicking balls!

 

[Missy]

I normally lurk rather than post, but had to chip in here.

I graduated from Oxford University. I avoid telling anyone this in real life. Why? Because a surprising number of people will immediately become defensive, and start running down Oxford/Cambridge, explaining why they didn't want to go there, telling me stories about acquaintances who bought there way in there, or so-and-so from their last job who went to Oxford and was completely useless. Just from the mere statement of fact of what my university was, before I've said another word.

My sister went to our local university (Newcastle) and will proudly wear her university sweatshirt out and about. I wouldn't dare.

I guess it's a similar situation for Ivy League in the US. I wish we could all just be proud of our own alma maters, and respect that other people are rightly proud of theirs.

Thanks for taking the time to post this Susief. You are so correct. It is sad. I find that it is great to be "average" because then no one feels threatened but once people realize you (fill in the blank): went to a prestigious school or have a great job or own a great home or make a lot of money they may become defensive. In my experience those that do become defensive do so because of their own lack of self esteem/confidence/worth. They are projecting those insecurities onto you. People who possess a good self image and are happy with their lives do not tend to do this and do not feel uncomfortable when they find out any of the above.

 

[AGBF]

I apologize for being rude. Very rude, in fact.
I am in fact taking this discussion too personally, so will drop out here and let those who are being civil continue.
I am under a certain amount of stress at the moment--not that that is an excuse for being rude and uncivil. Please excuse me.

Black Jade-

This is a note to you personally, so I hope you lurk enough in this thread to see it.

I have been fascinated by this thread and so have been popping in and out to look at it.

I have not been following it closely enough to understand anyone's position, however!

I have just been reading to entertain myself, not with an eye to getting to the heart of any

educational question or to deciding who is right in a dispute with someone else.


That was just background.


You once called me a, "classy lady" in a thread eons ago.


I just wanted to return the compliment. It is heartfelt. Rarely have I seen anyone post more graciously than you did above.

Deb

 

[natascha]

I actually had to go back and reread the entire thread since I hadn't seen people putting down any school. I hope that what I wrote was not seen as a put down by anyone. Did it?

I personally thought that this had become a fun and interesting thread from where we all could learn something. Sad to see that not everyone shares my opinion. I guess that some would prefer for this to be just a list thread or maybe a discussion thread for certain alumnae only.

 

[natascha]

Natascha, you intrigue me. What, praytell, are these hopes for society that we in the US don't share? Is there something you'd like to say-just spit it out.

Sorry, I had missed this earlier.

Lulu there is no need too be sarcastic. I was definitively not being sarcastic nor ironic, I actually mean what I said, that I find the US interesting.

From your phrasing I am guessing that you are not actually interested in a discussion over national values and how societies differ, are you? It instead feels like you took offence at what I wrote which was not my intention.

I don't know what your background is but you have to admit that the US is a bit different from the majority of western countries.

I would actually love to have a discussion about this. When I wrote my other post I had just finished an analysis of how the different cultural values in two different companies, one with headquarters in the US and the other in Japan, had led to completely different outcomes of the implementation of a new SAP system in their respective European subsidiaries.

 

[lulu]

"I am kinda fascinated by the US. The apparent dichotomy between smart, world wise people coming from the same country as some very insular, dare I say ignorant people. People who seem to believe that the US is the center of the world. People like the person I was talking about in my first post which seems to have completely derailed this thread . I find Americans opinions regarding right and wrong, what society should look like very interesting. I have lived for several years in three very different countries and still found similarities in their hope for society that don't really seem to be shared by the US. "

Yes, Natascha, I did find this remark offensive. Hard to take it any other way. I doubt if you have any information regarding what I believe is right or wrong or what I think society should look like. I would never make those generalizations about people from another country.