how many PSers graduated from an Ivy League school?

[MissStepcut]

Natascha, I won't get into the politics of who I do think should pay for higher ed, but I will just say: it's not hard to pass at an Ivy League school! What you describe is much more rigorous than how things work here.

 

[natascha]

Natascha, I won't get into the politics of who I do think should pay for higher ed, but I will just say: it's not hard to pass at an Ivy League school! What you describe is much more rigorous than how things work here.

Whoops sorry, did not mean to get into politics.

Sounds strange for it not to be hard to pass at an Ivy League school. Although I will say that not all of our courses are that hard to pass. Management courses are usually pretty easy as long as you have studied the material rigorously. Getting good grades is of course a different story.

 

[MissStepcut]

Natascha, I won't get into the politics of who I do think should pay for higher ed, but I will just say: it's not hard to pass at an Ivy League school! What you describe is much more rigorous than how things work here.

Whoops sorry, did not mean to get into politics.

Sounds strange for it not to be hard to pass at an Ivy League school. Although I will say that not all of our courses are that hard to pass. Management courses are usually pretty easy as long as you have studied the material rigorously. Getting good grades is of course a different story.

There is a lot of grade inflation in the U.S. Also, I think people paying $200k for a 4 year degree for their child would not be very tolerant of their child being flunked out when they're working hard, so a strict curve would not go over very well.

 

[LittleRiver]

This thread has veered in a different direction, but yes, FI and I both graduated from Ivy League schools.

 

[Missy]

Natascha, I won't get into the politics of who I do think should pay for higher ed, but I will just say: it's not hard to pass at an Ivy League school! What you describe is much more rigorous than how things work here.

Whoops sorry, did not mean to get into politics.

Sounds strange for it not to be hard to pass at an Ivy League school. Although I will say that not all of our courses are that hard to pass. Management courses are usually pretty easy as long as you have studied the material rigorously. Getting good grades is of course a different story.

There is a lot of grade inflation in the U.S. Also, I think people paying $200k for a 4 year degree for their child would not be very tolerant of their child being flunked out when they're working hard, so a strict curve would not go over very well.

Wow, MissStepCut it sounds like you have some sort of chip on your shoulder. I disagree with you and I am speaking from personal experience. School was very rigorous indeed and I received a top notch education as did my sister. And it had nothing to do with the money it cost. LOL I could just see what would happen if a parent of one of the ivy league students called one of the professors to complain about a grade. We were graded on a strict curve fyi and only a few people in each course received A's etc. Expressing your opinion is one thing but making up inaccurate info is quite another.

 

[slg47]

not hard to pass...which Ivy League school did you go to? also I think it really differs by school and by major...

 

[MissStepcut]

Missy I have no chip on my shoulder, I have just seen the grade inflation reports for the Ivies. It's nothing to take personally and I certainly intend no offense. As for parental involvement, that's just speculation, and I don't mean at a student-specific level, and the upwards pressure must be coming from somewhere.

 

[Missy]

No offense MissStepCut. I just felt you were throwing about some incredulous statements repeatedly so I wanted to step in and share my thoughts on the topic.

I'll share with you what I loved about my undergrad education. My professors included Nobel prize winners and people at the top of their fields who were passionate about what they did. My class size was (for the most part) small and very individual oriented. We each had a personal adviser and the student to faculty ratio was small so there was no escaping (good or bad) scrutiny. I worked hard the whole time there and each grade was well deserved. I wouldn't want to change a thing. And the great majority of the classes I took were graded on a curve so you can bet I worked my a** off to get my A's. I majored in Biology but since it was a liberal arts college I was exposed to many many interesting subjects.

I think you can get a great education at most colleges. It really depends on you and what you put into it. I think you need to pick the school that suits you best. I researched before I applied and wanted a small school that gave individual attention. That is the atmosphere I felt was best suited to my needs at that time. It was a difficult adjustment because I came from a public HS and though I was at the top of my class I felt I was not best prepared for my undergrad experience at first. It took a lot of hard work and time and blood sweat and tears on my part and it was all worth it (to me).

My dh did not go to an Ivy league college and he also worked hard and did well and he is very successful in his career. More so than me truthfully if you are judging success by how much you earn. Which I (and my dh) certainly do not do. I feel successful because I always did (and still do) the best I could and feel thankful I can make a difference in my profession serving the under-served population.
He chose the college he went to for its programs and location. So he picked the school he felt best suited to his needs.

I think you need to be careful about gross generalizations because when it comes to this topic (as most) gross generalizations often prove incorrect.

 

[MissStepcut]

I am not offended, but I am very interested in this particular topic, because I think some attitudes about American ed are problematic. I vehemently disagree that people should go to the school that suits them best... if that person is in the U.S. and doesn't have someone else footing the bill or a large scholarship. Kids are getting indebted to the hilt for school and I think six figure debt doesn't suit anyone particularly well.

 

[mrs taylor]

Agree. I wish I could have gone to my top choice, but graduating with $150k+ in debt was not the plan. I'm glad I went with the 3rd choice which left me with less than $5k in debt and was a good, private education. Not that public educations can't be awesome, but the point is I was able to go private with almost no debt. That was the a winning opportunity for me.

 

[Missy]

I am not offended, but I am very interested in this particular topic, because I think some attitudes about American ed are problematic. I vehemently disagree that people should go to the school that suits them best... if that person is in the U.S. and doesn't have someone else footing the bill or a large scholarship. Kids are getting indebted to the hilt for school and I think six figure debt doesn't suit anyone particularly well.

But that is all a part of deciding which school suits you best. I agree that you should not graduate with a huge sum of debt for your education. At least not more than you can practically handle. That is all part of deciding which is the right school for you. That includes how much money you can and want to spend.

 

[Missy]

Agree. I wish I could have gone to my top choice, but graduating with $150k+ in debt was not the plan. I'm glad I went with the 3rd choice which left me with less than $5k in debt and was a good, private education. Not that public educations can't be awesome, but the point is I was able to go private with almost no debt. That was the a winning opportunity for me.

And you chose the school that suited you best for all the above reasons. Well done!

 

[Black Jade]

Natascha, I won't get into the politics of who I do think should pay for higher ed, but I will just say: it's not hard to pass at an Ivy League school! What you describe is much more rigorous than how things work here.

This is serious misinformation.
While it is true that the Ivies are an athletic conference (which I put in my post way above) and that there are other schools that are better than some of the lower Ivies, education in the top Ivies is extremely rigorous.

I just finished my yearly interviews of high school students for my alma mater. Its always sad to have to tell the amazing kids applying that they have a less than 7% chance of getting in. This year I interviewed, as usual, 18 years who all have straight A's, all have the top 1% of SATS, all play sports and do music on a very high level and PLUS have internships where they are doing real scientific research (one girl was studying the cells that make mouse embryo digits work); have founded their own non-profit companies that are successful (I am not kidding); have organized major community projects all by themselves and similar amazing things. As I stated before, all the applicants are like this and thus most won't get in, whch is very sad, it upsets me every year. But I am sure that kids so talented will go on and have a good life.

As for easy graduations--to be a history major, as I was, if a person was studying the history of any country, they had to know how to read the language of the country as prerequisite, so that they could do original research. to study China I had to learn classical Chinese as well as Mandarin Chinese. Classical Chinese is what Confucius wrote 2,500 years ago. It is as similar to modern Chinese as classical Latin is to modern Italian. When I went to China last summer our native Chinese guides couldn't even read it and were messing up their translations of inscriptions at historical landmarks constantly. (To be fair, though, people in Taiwan are often literate in this and not, like the Chinese, completely clueless about their own history and culture). Yes, there was a curve. On every test, everyone in the class would get over 90%. the professor would curve so that there were still C's in the class. So, you could get 93% on a test and STILL get a C, because of the curve. To get an A, you not only had to have a high grade, but highER than other people inthe class.
It was a real pressure cooker and there were major issues such as eating disorders, nervous breakdowns and other things due to stress--you could definitely say that the system had problems, but NOT that the classes were easy. This was in the 1970's but I am still very involved with my school, not only with the interviews but with going there and meeting current undergraduates through the alumni association. the standards have not fallen. the selection process has actually gotten more rigorous (there are so many more kids applying) and as I said above, stellar students still don't get in.
There are some students from wealthy families at my alma mater but they are a minority--and those kids are STILL smart. (The idea that people with inherited wealth are necessarily dumber and/or lazier than everyone else is the same kind of myth as the idea that people who are considered more attractive are dumber. It's a comforting rationalization. I have not found it to be true--definitely not of the children of wealth who were at my school. Sorry.) The Ivies don't give scholarships because they know that anyone who gets in deserves one. Therefore, the financial aid is need based. that said, the tuition is crazy expensive even with aid and I think a solution needs to be found.
Especially with jobs nowadays so hard to get.
But don't run down things that you don't have the information about, please.

 

[sillyberry]

I honestly didn't realize that the fact of rampant grade inflation in higher education was even in dispute anymore.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/the-history-of-college-grade-inflation/

 

[MissStepcut]

I honestly didn't realize that the fact of rampant grade inflation in higher education was even in dispute anymore.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/the-history-of-college-grade-inflation/

I think the term "hard to pass" might be a loaded one. You and I have been on harsh forced curves and I went through the same in western Europe, so maybe people who haven't aren't putting it in that context. If everyone can pass just by grinding, it's not "hard to pass," IMO. I would also say it is not "hard to pass" at my law school.

 

[MissStepcut]

Natascha, I won't get into the politics of who I do think should pay for higher ed, but I will just say: it's not hard to pass at an Ivy League school! What you describe is much more rigorous than how things work here.

This is serious misinformation.
While it is true that the Ivies are an athletic conference (which I put in my post way above) and that there are other schools that are better than some of the lower Ivies, education in the top Ivies is extremely rigorous.

I just finished my yearly interviews of high school students for my alma mater. Its always sad to have to tell the amazing kids applying that they have a less than 7% chance of getting in. This year I interviewed, as usual, 18 years who all have straight A's, all have the top 1% of SATS, all play sports and do music on a very high level and PLUS have internships where they are doing real scientific research (one girl was studying the cells that make mouse embryo digits work); have founded their own non-profit companies that are successful (I am not kidding); have organized major community projects all by themselves and similar amazing things. As I stated before, all the applicants are like this and thus most won't get in, whch is very sad, it upsets me every year. But I am sure that kids so talented will go on and have a good life.

As for easy graduations--to be a history major, as I was, if a person was studying the history of any country, they had to know how to read the language of the country as prerequisite, so that they could do original research. to study China I had to learn classical Chinese as well as Mandarin Chinese. Classical Chinese is what Confucius wrote 2,500 years ago. It is as similar to modern Chinese as classical Latin is to modern Italian. When I went to China last summer our native Chinese guides couldn't even read it and were messing up their translations of inscriptions at historical landmarks constantly. (To be fair, though, people in Taiwan are often literate in this and not, like the Chinese, completely clueless about their own history and culture). Yes, there was a curve. On every test, everyone in the class would get over 90%. the professor would curve so that there were still C's in the class. So, you could get 93% on a test and STILL get a C, because of the curve. To get an A, you not only had to have a high grade, but highER than other people inthe class.
It was a real pressure cooker and there were major issues such as eating disorders, nervous breakdowns and other things due to stress--you could definitely say that the system had problems, but NOT that the classes were easy. This was in the 1970's but I am still very involved with my school, not only with the interviews but with going there and meeting current undergraduates through the alumni association. the standards have not fallen. the selection process has actually gotten more rigorous (there are so many more kids applying) and as I said above, stellar students still don't get in.
There are some students from wealthy families at my alma mater but they are a minority--and those kids are STILL smart. (The idea that people with inherited wealth are necessarily dumber and/or lazier than everyone else is the same kind of myth as the idea that people who are considered more attractive are dumber. It's a comforting rationalization. I have not found it to be true--definitely not of the children of wealth who were at my school. Sorry.) The Ivies don't give scholarships because they know that anyone who gets in deserves one. Therefore, the financial aid is need based. that said, the tuition is crazy expensive even with aid and I think a solution needs to be found.
Especially with jobs nowadays so hard to get.
But don't run down things that you don't have the information about, please.

Nothing I said contradicted anything you've said. The selection process is crazy -- and arbitrary. And favors certain high schools heavily. Being graded on a curve doesn't make it hard to pass -- though the grade inflation stats make it pretty clear it's not that hard to dodge a C either.

I never said rich kids are dumb! Absurd. I was comparing western Europe selection, which is PURE MERIT, to American selection, which takes in much more into account, including ability to pay for many people. It also does things like disfavor rural American extracurriculars like FFA, 4-H and ROTC.

Please, please don't accuse people of not being informed just because you think they're wrong. You seem to be missing information yourself.

 

[Circe]

This thread turned out to be a lot more interesting than the self-selected back-pat-athon I was expecting! I don't know why I'm surprised, it's what I love about PS.

Me, I have a checkered educational past: I attended a city college on my parent's dime because I was petrified of debt, graduated valedictorian, and went on to fully funded graduate programs at two Ivy's (terminal MA in case anything went wrong along the way so I could teach at a higher pay grade, and then a separate Ph.D.) before going out to Cali to teach in one of the poorest and most overcrowded branches of the California university system, and then returning to the East Coast to teach at a small private college. Basically, I've seen it all.

So, from personal experience? You can get an awesome education at a cheap college: you'll still have access to superb teachers, because the competition for jobs is so stiff that you're going to find Nobel winners left, right, and center. But you'll miss out on some things, too - no greensward, too much fluorescent lighting. I was honestly a little surprised when I stepped into my first Ivy classroom and realized ... nope, they hadn't been withholding any information. But I was also a little shocked at how the other half lived. You pay for three things going to a more prestigious school: name recognition, ambiance, and the company of like-minded others. Truth be told, I am a little sad to have missed out on that for this first 4 years ... but not 200K sad.

I just had my first kid, and I'm already saving for his college education ... but I'm also quite grateful that he has dual citizenship in a nation with a better attitude towards education. When he hits 16, I'm going to let him know that he has a large sum of cash in holding, and give him the choice: go to college in Sweden and get a graduation present that will work as a downpayment on his first house, business, or really awesome Grand Tour, or pay out of pocket for a US school (or win scholarships, which, hey, kid, go for it!). Will be curious to see what he decides ....

P.S. - As you might guess from my general political stance, I SO believe education should be government subsidized, because a well-educated and competitive population is the best investment any nation can make. I also realize I'm in a marked minority when it comes to that belief.

 

[iheartscience]

This thread turned out to be a lot more interesting than the self-selected back-pat-athon I was expecting! I don't know why I'm surprised, it's what I love about PS.

Me, I have a checkered educational past: I attended a city college on my parent's dime because I was petrified of debt, graduated valedictorian, and went on to fully funded graduate programs at two Ivy's (terminal MA in case anything went wrong along the way so I could teach at a higher pay grade, and then a separate Ph.D.) before going out to Cali to teach in one of the poorest and most overcrowded branches of the California university system, and then returning to the East Coast to teach at a small private college. Basically, I've seen it all.

So, from personal experience? You can get an awesome education at a cheap college: you'll still have access to superb teachers, because the competition for jobs is so stiff that you're going to find Nobel winners left, right, and center. But you'll miss out on some things, too - no greensward, too much fluorescent lighting. I was honestly a little surprised when I stepped into my first Ivy classroom and realized ... nope, they hadn't been withholding any information. But I was also a little shocked at how the other half lived. You pay for three things going to a more prestigious school: name recognition, ambiance, and the company of like-minded others. Truth be told, I am a little sad to have missed out on that for this first 4 years ... but not 200K sad.

I just had my first kid, and I'm already saving for his college education ... but I'm also quite grateful that he has dual citizenship in a nation with a better attitude towards education. When he hits 16, I'm going to let him know that he has a large sum of cash in holding, and give him the choice: go to college in Sweden and get a graduation present that will work as a downpayment on his first house, business, or really awesome Grand Tour, or pay out of pocket for a US school (or win scholarships, which, hey, kid, go for it!). Will be curious to see what he decides ....

P.S. - As you might guess from my general political stance, I SO believe education should be government subsidized, because a well-educated and competitive population is the best investment any nation can make. I also realize I'm in a marked minority when it comes to that belief.

My nieces and nephews also have dual citizenship to Sweden (they currently live there), and my brother is already telling them that they should go to school in Sweden! My niece misses us in the US and wants to come back, though, so I'm not sure he'll win that battle.

And ditto on the bolded!

 

[natascha]

So, from personal experience? You can get an awesome education at a cheap college: you'll still have access to superb teachers, because the competition for jobs is so stiff that you're going to find Nobel winners left, right, and center. But you'll miss out on some things, too - no greensward, too much fluorescent lighting. I was honestly a little surprised when I stepped into my first Ivy classroom and realized ... nope, they hadn't been withholding any information. But I was also a little shocked at how the other half lived. You pay for three things going to a more prestigious school: name recognition, ambiance, and the company of like-minded others. Truth be told, I am a little sad to have missed out on that for this first 4 years ... but not 200K sad.

It sounds great that you can get a great education at a cheap college. I am studying business and economics and in that area the education you get differs wildly depending on where you go. There is one school that is above the rest in terms of the quality of education that you get.

While I'm sure that the other schools have good professors and adjuncts too, the education ends up very different. I don't know how much more funding we receive ( it's private while the other schools are state financed) but we do have a lot more scheduled hours. However, the biggest difference is the level at which we are taught. More quantity and more complex material is gone through at a higher pace. The biggest reason why they an do this is that all of the students have a certain level, have studied higher maths, etc. Also while the rest of the schools receive funding for each student that they have enrolled, my school doesn't so I don't think they care as much if we don't pass and end up dropping out. As a first year student freaking out about statistics ( and I studied math E at HS with the highest grade, the minimum math required at HS was math A), I was talking to a third year student at another school and she did not even know what stochastic variables was, even though she said she had studied statistics.

So I very much agree that the company of like minded people does make a big difference.

 

[Circe]

I've gotten the feeling that one reason Sweden can have such a rigorously regimented university system is because elementary and middle school education is uniform in the extreme - same curriculum, same grading rubrics, nation-wide. I would LOVE to see the same thing in the US, but I suspect that it would be impossible because of sheer size - our population isn't homogenous enough (economically, socially, etc.) to make it doable. So instead, our universities try to create artificial schema like the SATs, and then all the instructors wind up "teaching to the test" which gives you a population that knows how to fill in bubble letters ... but not how to perform original research. The perfect training for a career of cubicle farming!

 

[Amys Bling]

My sister is an IVY league grade- and it was definitely not a cinch to pass. She did pass- and has moved onto her certificate and masters and now has exactly the job she wanted BUt let me tell you- she worked really hard to get through school- had a lot of stress- and busted her butt more than she expected to.

 

[Circe]

A word on grade inflation: the thing that stands out is that fewer kids flunk out of prestigious schools. Is that because of grade inflation, or because they tend to be high achievers in the first place? Nobody knows. But it does tend to be a slightly different demographic than the one you imagine when you think "Ivy" - not the A students, but the C students.

 

[madelise]

http://imgur.com/C56Qz

 

[natascha]

I've gotten the feeling that one reason Sweden can have such a rigorously regimented university system is because elementary and middle school education is uniform in the extreme - same curriculum, same grading rubrics, nation-wide. I would LOVE to see the same thing in the US, but I suspect that it would be impossible because of sheer size - our population isn't homogenous enough (economically, socially, etc.) to make it doable. So instead, our universities try to create artificial schema like the SATs, and then all the instructors wind up "teaching to the test" which gives you a population that knows how to fill in bubble letters ... but not how to perform original research. The perfect training for a career of cubicle farming!

Uniformity can be good but it also has it's downsides. Being smart over here before high school is awkward. I am sometimes grateful that I spent the majority of my education abroad, the education system in South Africa and Spain is pretty different and changing languages like that helped keep me on my toes.

Also we need people in cubicle farming! Someone has too do it and I am very thankful that I probably ( cross my fingers and hope I didn't jinx anything ) won't be one of them. So I will try not to moan to much next time we have deadlines and end up working 22 hours in one go after weeks of 12-14 hour days without any weekends. It is brilliant fun to be discussing how to interpret new IFRS standards with the actual people who are creating the rules. A bit scary though when you realize that there are no real answers, just interpretations. And the whole patotie of trying to merge with US GAAP, you guys are pretty stubborn. I much prefer being original then sitting in a cubicle doing the same thing all the time. However I do think that original research is pretty hard to do, at least on my pretty basic level. I have started to get those emails about publishing my thesis as a book but smells like vanity publishing to me. Especially since it is already publicly available.

I am kinda fascinated by the US. The apparent dichotomy between smart, world wise people coming from the same country as some very insular, dare I say ignorant people. People who seem to believe that the US is the center of the world. People like the person I was talking about in my first post which seems to have completely derailed this thread . I find Americans opinions regarding right and wrong, what society should look like very interesting. I have lived for several years in three very different countries and still found similarities in their hope for society that don't really seem to be shared by the US.

 

[lulu]

Natascha, you intrigue me. What, praytell, are these hopes for society that we in the US don't share? Is there something you'd like to say-just spit it out.

 

[Circe]

Natascha, you intrigue me. What, praytell, are these hopes for society that we in the US don't share? Is there something you'd like to say-just spit it out.

I'm not Natascha, but ... we're keeping company with Uganda and the Republic of the Congo when it comes to maternity leave - something like 37th in the world. We have better, but still shockingly low, statistics when it comes to things like infant mortality and incarceration. And when it comes to education, I'd actually hazard a guess that we might be the most severely divided nation in the world: our educational system reifies our class structure, and our class structure is exemplified by the 1%.

Most of the rest of the "civilized" world doesn't agree with the priorities those numbers represent: they tend towards a general concern for the members of their society.

 

[Maria D]

I've gotten the feeling that one reason Sweden can have such a rigorously regimented university system is because elementary and middle school education is uniform in the extreme - same curriculum, same grading rubrics, nation-wide. I would LOVE to see the same thing in the US, but I suspect that it would be impossible because of sheer size - our population isn't homogenous enough (economically, socially, etc.) to make it doable. So instead, our universities try to create artificial schema like the SATs, and then all the instructors wind up "teaching to the test" which gives you a population that knows how to fill in bubble letters ... but not how to perform original research. The perfect training for a career of cubicle farming!

Oh Circe, why must you slap me with the cold harsh truth so early this morning! And on my week off at that!

 

[yennyfire]

I did not go to an Ivy, but I did go to a top 20 school. I chose it for it's PhD program, which, at the tender age of 18, I thought I wanted to pursue. Fast forward 4 years and I ended up getting my MS in a similar field, but the original purpose of my selecting that university was null.

While I think having a degree from an Ivy can help a student get that first job, I don't know that it helps 10 years later. Once you've been out of school for a while and been successful in your career, that's what gets you that next job or the promotion, not your alma mater (unless you factor in the alumnae network, which may help in terms of connections, etc.).

 

[Pandora II]

Husband read Politics, Philosophy & Economics at Oxford.

To my father's sorrow I didn't follow in his footsteps and go to Cambridge, but I went to Art College instead...

Until this year, education was entirely free for all. Now it costs £9k GBP a year max - the government loans you the money up front and you start to pay it back once your salary gets about a certain amount. IIRC, if you earn £30k GBP a year then you pay back around £40 a month so it's really not very onerous.

I would hate to see university's here not be entrance on merit. Granted paying for private education helps, but that is more about aspirations, parental interest, small class numbers and frankly since many private schools are highly selective the students are significantly more intelligent as a cohort than the average school class and can therefore work at a hard and advanced pace.

Getting a place at them is almost worse than University - a friend's daughter just got one of 15 places at a great school here in London. There were 250 applicants who went through the selection process - she turns 3 next week and lucky thing doesn't have to sit the entrance exams at 7 or at 11.

Just out of interest, are there strict numbers for courses in the USA at university?

For example, we can apply to 5 universities - a report goes out listing all your info/school report/grade predictions and you wait for the interviews/offers to come in. They stipulate the grades you need to obtain in your A levels, so you might be offered A, A, B or B, C, C or whatever. Out of the 5 you then chose a firm offer and an insurance offer (lower grade requirement normally).

In the summer you get the exam results - if you have your offer or better then you automatically have a place. If you miss a grade or so then you phone the college and beg, plead, offer cake etc and hope they take pity.

There are very strict numbers for most courses.

I was amazed when I lived in Italy that if you pass the school certificate you can study what you like at University - an ex-bf said there were over 300 students in his Architecture degree on the first day of term. Here, a university might take 20 people in a year max.

 

[Black Jade]

[quote="MissStepcut|1329833537|.[/quote]
Nothing I said contradicted anything you've said. The selection process is crazy -- and arbitrary. And favors certain high schools heavily. Being graded on a curve doesn't make it hard to pass -- though the grade inflation stats make it pretty clear it's not that hard to dodge a C either.

I never said rich kids are dumb! Absurd. I was comparing western Europe selection, which is PURE MERIT, to American selection, which takes in much more into account, including ability to pay for many people. It also does things like disfavor rural American extracurriculars like FFA, 4-H and ROTC.

Please, please don't accuse people of not being informed just because you think they're wrong. You seem to be missing information yourself.[/quote]

You are misinformed and you do not know what evidence is--or how to properly process information.

The selection process at my Ivy League college is crazy--because so many super well qualified students apply that they must end up failing to select many who would do very well there. It is arbitrary in the sense that they must decide how to pick the cream of the cream, not arbitrary in the sense that they are just randomly choosing anyone on the basis of no merit.
If you get in, you will get need-based aid.

Once these excellent students arrive, they must grade on a curve so that they do not all get A's. A person who gets a C in most of the class would be off the charts at most other places.(Though not all--there are excellent US schools that are not in the Ivy League).

I say you do not know what evidence is because you are presenting as proof of your thesis ONE article from the NYTimes, from ONE book which studied 200 colleges--not only the Ivy League--and did not take into account such factors as the growing number of students applying to the IVY which makes them more and more selective as they have a much larger pool of extremely well qualified applicants to select from than they did in 1940. As the people who enter get more and more qualified, yes, a larger number of them will get A's, that are well deserved. The same factors are not taking place at all other private colleges--there are some that you just get into because your parents can pay, and others that you get into because of your athletic ability because they are sports schools, etc. etc. The people who wrote the book (at least as it is described in the article) are lumping together a lot of unlike schools to make their point. And you are using this article, which is not specifically about the Ivy League and does not address their particular situation, to say that the Ivies have grade inflation, something that you clearly know nothing about.

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You also seem to be comparing all US colleges to all Western European colleges unfavorable. I went to college in Europe also, for one year, as part of a junior year abroad. I went to school in Paris, so I will talk about France specifically--not about the whole of Europe.
France has very elite schools such as Normale Sup and Langues O and certain part of the Sorbonne--Paris IV for instrance. It also has some very sub-level schools. I went to part of the University of Paris (it will remain unnamed) where the standards were no way up to a good US State School such as U Maryland College Park (where you can get an excellent education) or a good city college such as Brooklyn College.in New York. The teachers were uninformed, the students not willing to work, and the whole thing extremely disorganized. I benefitted from it, because I was not only doing course work in a foreign language but getting to see a side of French life that few see-especially not all those who judge everything European to be superior (especially their social engineering) without any real knowledge of it. The benefit of the whole thing to (lower level) French students was that they got to get a piece of paper when they were finished, without having to pay a dime, at least directly--the state pays everybody's college education. Though people still do not get to any school they want. They still have the better students go to better schools--the education is not equal and cannot be, since people's abilities aren't equal. The non-benefit is that with the state taking up all educational costs, someone is still paying for it somewhere,somehow. Bankrupt, anyone? Default? We are getting there--but Europe is getting there way faster. Because of the idea that the state needs to pay for every single for everybody to make things 'fair'--and no idea that money does not come out of thin air and that you pay the paper eventually.

One thing I really hated about my French college was that it was 'Marxist' in orientation. I thought that Marxism was somewhat romantic and interesting (being a child of the late sixties and early seventies) until I saw it in action there. The classes didn't even start until over a month later because ALL the students in each class got to endless debate a) what time the class would be held b) what we were going to read and do--everyone had an equal say with the teacher. There were 20 people in the class. I'm amazed that the class ever started. But when it did, it was indoctrination not education. Everything we studied had to be fit into the ridiculous Marxist schema of history, whether it actually fit the facts or not. And you had to do it in certain language--using certain code words--'proleteriate' 'feudalism' etc. etc.. it was complete crap. But, as I said, it was not one of the better schools in Paris (where I had friends)--where they do NOT operate like this. So I am not making a sweeping judgment. I am saying that some education in France is as good as the best education in the US--and some isn't.

But you know what? They had all jolly well heard of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, U Chicago, Stamford, etc--and the BEST French students very often wanted to come here for graduate school. As I found when I lived in Asia too. And one of the benefits at grad school at my Ivy League (where I am on the Alumni Board of Governors and as I said before, very much in touch with what is currently going on--which is not the same as reading single NYT articles for information)--one of the benefits is the international body of students, undergraduate also, but definitely at the graduate--the best students not only in the US but the world.

No one could deny that our lower level education is a mess in most places (and I won't go into the reason for that in depth--but one problem is certainly that so much time is spent on propaganda and in having to follow not-very well thought out public policies with a political tinge, such as No Child Left Behind,that the students don't get enough of the 3 R's at most places). But the best of our higher level education is in the top tier in the world. It's not the only game in town--I wouldn't say that Princeton was better than Cambridge in England (my uncle went to Cambridge) or that Harvard was better than Normale Sup. in France, but the Ivy League gives a very very good education, thank you very much and what you are saying is what I said it is before--uninformed nonsense.