How many H,I,J,K diamonds are brown, and do you care?

[0-0-0]

The new site is awesome! I'm not a fan of brown tint in the near colorless range as I find it more noticeable than yellow.

In the light to fancy light range, I prefer brown over yellow, but prefer yellow again in the fancy to fancy intense range.

 

[Rosebloom]

The videos (love that new feature - thank you!) look pinkish to me. Is that just my monitor or do they have a pink hue in there somewhere? I'm loving it!

 

[0-0-0]

This is really curious. I searched for all H and I color rounds with True Hearts and Ideal cut and sorted by carat. Very few of the biggest stones display a brown tint, yet roughly half of the smallest stones display a brown tint. Any ideas as to why that is the case?

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-...1|advancedParameter:Color|showAdvanced:|ps:15

 

[diagem]

Personally, I'm not a fan of brown diamonds (although I find the pear shape fascinating and have nicknamed it 'The Zebra'), but what do consumers think? According to an online article from JCK Nov 2012, there is at least one person in the trade calling for GIA to grade tint on the reports:

http://www.jckonline.com/blogs/cutting-remarks/2012/11/28/should-diamond-grading-reports-include-tint

Thoughts?

Interesting topic..., and I also believe the timing is not by fluke.
If any professionals noticed..., Rapaport added caution warning words (not only for brown tints) to their weekly price-lists since Mr. Alex Waldman called for the calling, but this week for some reason Rapaport did not. And I am happy he decided to delete these warnings. I thought they were inappropriate to begin with.

In any case, brown (et-al) tinted Diamonds in the colorless range always existed and were usually slightly discounted in lots (bulk of Diamonds), Historicaly slightly tinted brown Diamonds were & are still valued on a stone by stone basis. I myself usually  prefer the face-up appearance of brownish IJK's. I think when cut correctly brownish tints add value as they do appear whiter in natural day light vs their yellow counterparts. (but again..., it should be noted that it depends on the Diamond itself and the lighting environment displayed.)

Back to the timing, I believe Mr. Waldman's call for identifying hues on grading reports was/is timely as the industry is experiencing new & large quantities" of polished originating from the Zimbabwean Diamond mines. It's no secret today that "quite a lot of colorless" Diamonds originating from Zimbabwe have slight tints of yellow, brown, green & grey, a lot of times a few of the colors are mixed and will appear kind of oily in color. These colors are less attractive to the eye and there for the call for the add-on grade. 

We are all living in a new virtual Era where huge Diamond quantities are sold sight unseen while their values are determined on Lab grading reports (amongst other factors), I as well believe there is room for the calling of the tint if applicable. Elementary no? 
It wouldn't hurt if vendors also identify and educate more on the subject..., after all, I truly believe there is an added value element in these tints...., yellow does not need to be the "norm".

A question for Paul S.  if you are reading..., you mentioned HRD identifies brownish equivalents on their reports. I was wondering (as I never encountered myself, I believe) if HRD also points out other shades as well?

 

[MissGotRocks]

I definitely love the new videos of the stones - you can see inclusions, color, etc. and make a much better decision about asking to have a stone sent out. Some of those things jump at you and you just know that stone would not be for you. Seems like it would save so much time and money on the part of the vendor and consumer. Great, great feature!!

I too would prefer the brown tint over yellow - guess I was just always schooled to absolutely reject yellow in a stone that was supposed to be a white diamond. The brown is much more appealing to my eye but I have to admit that for a center stone, I doubt that I would choose one of those stones. It's an interesting thing though and again, so good to be able to know this before a stone is shipped to you.

I have to agree with Yssie though on the color grading issue - since it is still rather subjective, I think that adding in an undertone category would just further muddy the waters. This would be particularly true if the two major labs were not in agreement. Pricing would be subject to this subset of color grading too and could be very confusing to the consumer as well as potentially unfair to the vendor.

 

[alma123]

The new website is wonderful! And like many others, I do not like the brown tint when shopping for a colorless diamond (which most consumers who use your site do). The brown tint should almost have a category of its own.

The faint brown H could easily show more color than a K diamond, yet there is a premium simply because the GIA cert says "H" (and the cert makes no mention of the brown not yellow tint!). And had I been shopping on any other website, I would not have known this.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Yoram,

as to your question, I think that HRD identifies every non-yellowish tint as 'eq' (equivalent). Most of those will probably be brownish, but I can imagine the same notation for other tints.

Live long,

 

[justginger]

I actually quite like the brown tint, but I also like yellow tints. I am an equal-opportunity diamond lover, it turns out.

 

[princesss]

I far, far prefer a slight brown tint over a slight yellow tint. When people talk about the "romance" of lower-colored diamonds, I can see that with faint brown (sort of an ivory, aged, parchment color), but faint yellow tint just looks, well, yellowish to me. There's such a stigma attached to the yellow tint, maybe?

Yeah, but with a yellow tint you get that buttery, creamy colour that is just gorgeous!

I think to decide what I prefered I would have to see both on my hand to see which looked better on me - I can say that from the videos I am not a real fan of the brown tint, but that's against a white background and it could totally change how I feel about the stone if I saw it against my skin tone.

(But I'm also a warmer stone/old cut lover, so I think that may have gone out the window if I were looking for a higher colour MRB or fancy with smaller facets.)

 

[diagem]

Yoram,

as to your question, I think that HRD identifies every non-yellowish tint as 'eq' (equivalent). Most of those will probably be brownish, but I can imagine the same notation for other tints.

Live long,

Thats was my enquiry as I have seen plenty 'eq' brown HRD's but cant recall ever seeing a different color 'eq' grade.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi All!
Jim- best of luck, and congrats on the new site- it's amazing!
I'm a lover of brown ( and pretty much every other color) in diamonds.
Here's how GIA categorizes stones that have a bit more of the tint

 

[ericad]

What an interesting and enlightening thread this is! I confess, when we're buying old cuts, we tend to avoid, or alternately discount, any "brownies" because our experience has been that consumers view brown tones as undesirable. But I'm happy to see that several people like the rosy tone that these stones have, because they are truly beautiful in their own right. Perhaps we will look at them in a new light going forward. At a minimum, beyond the cert, we see that there's value in adding a color tone as part of our description - this is something we'll work on since it would seem that consumers will find it helpful. It has rarely come up in the past, but we'll definitely include it in our descriptions going forward.

Very interesting indeed.

 

[diagem]

What an interesting and enlightening thread this is! I confess, when we're buying old cuts, we tend to avoid, or alternately discount, any "brownies" because our experience has been that consumers view brown tones as undesirable. But I'm happy to see that several people like the rosy tone that these stones have, because they are truly beautiful in their own right. Perhaps we will look at them in a new light going forward. At a minimum, beyond the cert, we see that there's value in adding a color tone as part of our description - this is something we'll work on since it would seem that consumers will find it helpful. It has rarely come up in the past, but we'll definitely include it in our descriptions going forward.

Very interesting indeed.

Especially on old cuts, the added value is really hidden in TLB's, when you find old cuts with those large chunky white flashes..., they seem to flash brighter with the brown undertones vs their yellow counterparts.
Actualy describing this phoenamena is quite easy if you have both to compare and given the fact that they are slighlty discounted its a win-win sittuation for all.

 

[Karl_K]

What an interesting and enlightening thread this is! I confess, when we're buying old cuts, we tend to avoid, or alternately discount, any "brownies" because our experience has been that consumers view brown tones as undesirable. But I'm happy to see that several people like the rosy tone that these stones have, because they are truly beautiful in their own right. Perhaps we will look at them in a new light going forward. At a minimum, beyond the cert, we see that there's value in adding a color tone as part of our description - this is something we'll work on since it would seem that consumers will find it helpful. It has rarely come up in the past, but we'll definitely include it in our descriptions going forward.

Very interesting indeed.

I was hoping you would chime in.
I have seen a few old mine cuts that were browns that seemed to have a ball of color floating in them that looked kinda nasty. In other words they looked like a colorless diamond with a brown ball floating in them.
I don't recall ever seeing this with yellows or more modern cuts.
Have you ran into this? If you do in the future could you gather pics? :}

 

[ericad]

Do you mean it looked like an area of concentrated color? Were the stones you saw loose or mounted? If I come across this I'll certainly take pics - I'll be in Miami at the end of the month and will keep my iphone at the ready, on the lookout for this phenomenon!

 

[Karl_K]

Do you mean it looked like an area of concentrated color? Were the stones you saw loose or mounted? If I come across this I'll certainly take pics - I'll be in Miami at the end of the month and will keep my iphone at the ready, on the lookout for this phenomenon!

Yep, area of concentrated color. It almost looked like a basketball floating in the stone and moved as we moved the stone.
It was not explained by inclusions.
It was mounted when I first saw it but the jeweler unmounted and cleaned it and it was the same.
We then found another one in his collection that did the same.
They were all sent off to be recut so it is long gone :{ This was somewhere around 10 years ago when they were not as popular.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I hope you don't mind me tackling that one Karl!
In my experience the optical "mechanism" that makes a diamond looks brown is totally different than how a yellow diamond looks yellow.
Basically, brown stones can have "zones"
The cutter needs to orient this properly to get the color out of the top.
Looked at from the pavilion, the color disappears- yet from the top it's rich brown.
This is true with deeper colored browns, but less so with TLB's- although in a "chuncky" stone, my experience is that it is sometimes visible in a lighter brown.

 

[Karl_K]

I hope you don't mind me tackling that one Karl!
In my experience the optical "mechanism" that makes a diamond looks brown is totally different than how a yellow diamond looks yellow.
Basically, brown stones can have "zones"
The cutter needs to orient this properly to get the color out of the top.
Looked at from the pavilion, the color disappears- yet from the top it's rich brown.
This is true with deeper colored browns, but less so with TLB's- although in a "chuncky" stone, my experience is that it is sometimes visible in a lighter brown.

I don't mind at all, thanks!
Color zoning would explain it.

 

[ariel144]

Great thread! Bumping for educational purposes. FYI, now on James Allen when there is tint listed on the GIA report (usually brown) it will state "Intensity Faint" on the listing.
As in this L MRB. You can only see this on the main listing when you click on the quick info. tab.

1.51 Carat round diamond

This 1.51 carat round diamond L color si2 clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

 

[tyty333]

Great thread! Bumping for educational purposes. FYI, now on James Allen when there is tint listed on the GIA report (usually brown) it will state "Intensity Faint" on the listing.
As in this L MRB. You can only see this on the main listing when you click on the quick info. tab.

1.51 Carat round diamond

This 1.51 carat round diamond L color si2 clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

INteresting...how do we know what the color will be? Looks like we dont unless the SA can tell us? It would be nice if it said, Faint Brown,
Faint Grey, or Faint Yellow etc.

 

[ariel144]

INteresting...how do we know what the color will be? Looks like we dont unless the SA can tell us? It would be nice if it said, Faint Brown,
Faint Grey, or Faint Yellow etc.

The picture and video of the stone you can see the color of tint if one is sensitive to color. But on JA you now have to request to receive the cert. which is annoying. They send the cert to your email and it specifies the color of the tint. If the tint is yellow it will not specify any tint...only for brown that I've seen. There are different shades of brown in tint. It can be steely/gray brown, golden brown, orangey brown or pinkish brown. Personally I can tell from the picture which tone of brown the stone is showing.

 

[tyty333]

Look at this one @ariel144 ...looks brown/green but it does not say anything about Intensity.

0.94 Carat oval diamond

This oval cut 0.94 carat J color si1 clarity has a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

This DID get an Intensity of Faint

1.00 Carat oval diamond

This oval cut 1 carat K color si1 clarity has a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

Edit...does it have to be a K or lower to get a designated tint? Does anyone know?

 

[bright&shiny]

So, this thread made me curious. I have an old (1990’s) tennis bracelet that has “champagne “ colored diamonds. I don’t wear it often, but after reading the thread, I took it and my loupe out. They are salt and pepper brownish diamonds. They get lighter outside in the sun light. I just checked and all but one have fluorescence. Is there an actual category for Champaign color? If yes, would the body color be yellow or brown? I am finding this topic fascinating!

 

[Polyhex]

Great thread! Bumping for educational purposes. FYI, now on James Allen when there is tint listed on the GIA report (usually brown) it will state "Intensity Faint" on the listing.
As in this L MRB. You can only see this on the main listing when you click on the quick info. tab.

1.51 Carat round diamond

This 1.51 carat round diamond L color si2 clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

Does James Allen have a search filter for these faint brown diamonds? There was a recent thread with a huge ideal cut K (brown) diamond that was out of this world beautiful.

 

[tyty333]

Does James Allen have a search filter for these faint brown diamonds? There was a recent thread with a huge ideal cut K (brown) diamond that was out of this world beautiful.

Unfortunately, no. The way I find them is to put the color range down to K-M and then look at the list of diamonds that pop up for ones that look
like they have a browner tint to them. If you hit the "..." posted on the bottom right-hand side of a diamond image it brings up some info on the
setting that will have OVERTONE and INTENSITY. The OVERTONE usually says the color of the stone with a comma like "M,". I think it is supposed to have the color listed after the comma but they dont have it working correctly at this point.

But no, no filter on the intensity or overtone.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

So, this thread made me curious. I have an old (1990’s) tennis bracelet that has “champagne “ colored diamonds. I don’t wear it often, but after reading the thread, I took it and my loupe out. They are salt and pepper brownish diamonds. They get lighter outside in the sun light. I just checked and all but one have fluorescence. Is there an actual category for Champaign color? If yes, would the body color be yellow or brown? I am finding this topic fascinating!

Almost all Argyle diamonds are brown (no yellows at all).
Almost all Argyle diamonds have Medium to Very strong Fluorescence.
Savvy )sneaky) jewellers selling a lot of TLB and TTLB use lights with a lot of UV in their windows upping the colour appearance.

New fun fact - A lot of Argyle diamonds come up as type II in at least Presidium and De Beers diamond testers. Seems to be more common in included diamonds (which is 995 of Argyle goods).
I know this from personal experience last week.

 

[bright&shiny]

@Garry H (Cut Nut)

I guess it’s a big Argyle diamond tennis bracelet then! All these years and I never bothered to check until this thread. Definitely inclusions but have great cuts. They are in a heavy gold s shaped setting. I wonder if something else would show them to better advantage.... now on to lean more about argyles.... Thank you, Gary

 

[Polyhex]

Unfortunately, no. The way I find them is to put the color range down to K-M and then look at the list of diamonds that pop up for ones that look
like they have a browner tint to them. If you hit the "..." posted on the bottom right-hand side of a diamond image it brings up some info on the
setting that will have OVERTONE and INTENSITY. The OVERTONE usually says the color of the stone with a comma like "M,". I think it is supposed to have the color listed after the comma but they dont have it working correctly at this point.

But no, no filter on the intensity or overtone.

Thanks so much for this, I will try it!

 

[Modified Brilliant]

This thread started in 2013. I was just about to add my thoughts when I realized that I "DID" add my thoughts.... 7 years ago. Seeing more of these now for sure. Lots of J-K-L, VS clarity diamonds buried in 18K yellow gold diamond cluster jewelry from the 80's making it a fun task for an appraiser.

 

[ariel144]

Look at this one @ariel144 ...looks brown/green but it does not say anything about Intensity.

0.94 Carat oval diamond

This oval cut 0.94 carat J color si1 clarity has a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

This DID get an Intensity of Faint

1.00 Carat oval diamond

This oval cut 1 carat K color si1 clarity has a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

Edit...does it have to be a K or lower to get a designated tint? Does anyone know?

Yes, K or lower to find the brown tint designated as "intensity" in GIA graded and "overtone" in IGI graded stones. At least that I have seen. Yes, that J oval has a green tint!