How do you perform time outs?

[Dreamer_D]

Kid is 2.5.

How do you perform/carry out a time out? I'm looking to get a sense for different methods.

I would like a play by play (child hits his brother, so I do x, then y, then z).

In particular, what is the repeated action/routine to get them to stay in time out Pretend for me that you have a very very willful child who gets up from the time out spot the moment you turn your back. Also pretend he is a wild monkey who will climb over anything.

Just want to make sure we are doing it right!

 

[mayerling]

Caveat - I don't have kids yet.

I'm a big supernanny fan, so I would do it her way.

1. Get down to eye-level and give a warning about how they should stop doing the naughty behaviour.
2. (If the naughty behaviour keeps up) take them by the hand and place them on the naughty step/stool/chair/etc., explaining that they're being placed there for not listening to mummy.
3. They have to spend a minute on the naughty step for every year of their age.
4. If they leave the step before their time is done, the timer is reset, and they're placed back without eye contact or conversation (i.e. NO talking to them no matter how much they try to get your attention).
5. After their time is done, and this can take hours if they keep getting up, go down to eye-level again, repeat why you placed them there and ask for an apology.
6. After you get your apology, hugs and kisses to show that you forgive and still love them.

 

[Jennifer W]

Yes, that's pretty much the technique in theory - keep in mind that Supernanny is a TV show and they only broadcast the bits where her technique works.

We give warnings, on the basis that you need to know the law first. Depends what it is though - if it's hitting or hair pulling or something she knows from previous experience that we don't put up with, no warning.

I get down in her face (non aggressive, but eye contact) and sometimes hold her gently so she can't wriggle off and escape, then explain in just a few words why it's time out, say something like "you must not take the valves and pistons out of daddy's car engine..." or whatever. Then I say "we're going to sit outside now" and take her to the time out spot, which is always just outside the door of whatever room we're in (makes it portable for when we visit friends). When her time is up, I go back and get down to eye level again, then say "you're sitting outside because you took the car to pieces. I don't want you to do that again, do you understand?" Then, "Ok, then let me have an apology and a cuddle."

Done.

If she moves off, I just return her to the spot, and say "it's time out, you will stay here." I've never had to do that more than a couple of times.

I have to be really careful that I'm gentle with her when I put her in time out - it's more for my temper than hers sometimes. It works best when I'm totally calm (at least, on the outside) and not giving any indication that I'm getting upset. Toddlers can sense weakness, like dogs can smell fear... Oh, and they can smell fear too - your fear that time out won't work.

Problem is, she doesn't really mind the time out and will usually sit and sing to herself happily outside the door. I do use it as a threat - "do you want to have to sit outside...." can sometimes take the edge off the worst of her behaviour.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think it will work if the parent is consistent, but the first time or two you may be dealing with returning the child to the time-out chair for what may seem like an eternity. But it's worth it if you have the resolve. I really hate seeing little kids who control their parents and are begging for boundaries. Supernanny is really a useful show!

 

[somethingshiny]

Misbehave.
Get on eye level and address misbehavior. "We don't do that. If you do it again, you're going to time-out until you can act appropriately." Suggest a better behavior.
Child misbehaves again.
"You're going to time out because you did x. You will sit/stand here for 2 minutes. You are not here to play or talk."
Take child to time-out area and don't say anything else.
Child tries walking away.
Don't say anything, just pick up child and put back in time-out.

I've never had to do that more than 2-3 times. Once they know you mean business, they tend to cooperate.

For an older child, I restart the time if they speak or move around too much. I just announce that. "you're not there to play, but since you're choosing to play, we're restarting time-out."

I always based time on minutes by age. My sis does time-out without a set time. She just says, "when you're ready to apologize, you can come out of time-out." Her son is very willful and has sat in timeout for an hour before he'll apologize.

 

[Pandora II]

- Daisy, please don't kick mummy's computer.
Kick
- Daisy, if you do that once more you are going in the corridor
Kick
- Right, corridor
Into corridor and door to sitting-room shut.

- Daisy, please put that back.
- No
- Daisy, I will count to three... one
- One
- Two
- Two
- Three, corridor
Into corridor and door to sitting-room shut.

The corridor has other rooms off it including hers and I am more than happy if she goes off and plays elsewhere, generally she just lies on the floor and screams.

We do a minute per year of age (or until I have calmed down sufficiently to not murder her). If she's gone off to read a book or play on her own, I will stick my head round the door when the time is up just to check on her. I don't restart the time or whatever because I would be picking a battle I would lose - D is stubborn enough that she could keep up screaming for multiple hours and that is not fair on our neighbours (we live in an apartment block and the walls/floors are not that thick) and would give her a chance to 'win'.

The getting down on her level makes no difference at all - I issue a warning because it is right to outline crime and punishment in advance, but big explanations go straight over her head.

I've found the book '1,2,3, Magic' to be really, really helpful and recommend it 100%. Their take is that 'time out' doesn't need to be a boring, padded cell - it needs to be a disruption to the activity in progress. It also makes time-out more portable if you are shopping or in museums etc. They also recommend not getting involved in any discussion of the 'crime' and that once time-out is complete there is no discussion or apologies or similar - everyone just moves on.

There is also clear-division between obnoxious behaviour which merits a time-out and annoying behaviour like running away when it's time to get dressed that should be handled in a completely different manner.

It has been the most successful strategy so far by a long way.

 

[Dreamer_D]

double

 

[Dreamer_D]

OK I am already doing all the things you guys suggest, and I am firm and authoritative. He is ridiculously persistent. When he leaves he runs away full tilt. By the time I catch him he is half way accross the house. I have been putting him down then doing around the corner out of sight so as not to engage him when he is in time out. But that makes it hard to catch him when he runs off. Tips?

Yesterday I did two time outs with Hunter, both times he ran away from the time out spot about 8-10 times before he stayed. The first time he broke down in the time out spot and sat crying until time was up. Success The second time I was getting tired after about 10 times and about to sit down and cry, so I took him to his room and closed the door and held it so he could not get out. When I hearn him quiet from his raging screaming and crying I opened the door and we moved on. But I don't want to do that, I want him to stay on the stair! So I posted here.

Thanks meyerling, good refresher!

Yes, that's pretty much the technique in theory - keep in mind that Supernanny is a TV show and they only broadcast the bits where her technique works.

I am a supernanny fan too, but wanted in the trenches examples as it were.

Child tries walking away.
Don't say anything, just pick up child and put back in time-out.

I've never had to do that more than 2-3 times. Once they know you mean business, they tend to cooperate.

OK I will try not talking. I was saying "you are in time out and you must stay here" when I put him back on the step.

I always based time on minutes by age. My sis does time-out without a set time. She just says, "when you're ready to apologize, you can come out of time-out." Her son is very willful and has sat in timeout for an hour before he'll apologize.

This is what we were doing up until recently, but he would sit for 2 seconds, pop up saying "I'm ready to apologize!" then yell "SORRYY!!" and resume playing. I don't think that method was getting the message accross anymore.

I've found the book '1,2,3, Magic' to be really, really helpful and recommend it 100%. Their take is that 'time out' doesn't need to be a boring, padded cell - it needs to be a disruption to the activity in progress. It also makes time-out more portable if you are shopping or in museums etc. They also recommend not getting involved in any discussion of the 'crime' and that once time-out is complete there is no discussion or apologies or similar - everyone just moves on.

I will have to get this book. I don't like the discussion and apology thing much, myself, as it feels sort of manipulative of the child in some way... or it reinforces the bad behavior by giving attention to the action. I don't know. We have been just moving on with life as if nothing happened once time out is over.

There is also clear-division between obnoxious behaviour which merits a time-out and annoying behaviour like running away when it's time to get dressed that should be handled in a completely different manner.

OK, what do you do for the non-obnoxious things? I guess I need to read the book.

Some people I know use time out when their kid does not listen to them, but that resulted in the second fiasco I described above, and since not listening is an all day thing with Hunter I really don't want to use time out for that.

 

[nfowife]

I have found the gentlechristianmothers.com website and forums very helpful for discipline techniques. It's not religious/preachy (I'm not a Christian) and there are some great ideas there. Hth!

 

[Pandora II]

The book has loads of ideas for different age groups - most are based on timers, contests, sticker charts and prizes... it works rather well!

Daisy is also a runner away from set points which is why we use the corridor (plus we have no stairs) - she can't get far and it has removed her from me and whatever she was doing.

The book is very keen to stress that going off and doing something else is not counterproductive. They also agree that having discussions and apologies etc is giving attention to the behaviour and is also more stressful for the parent - plus when they get older they start to argue the toss and then it becomes far more messy and emotional and you lose more control both literally and in their minds.

It's available on Kindle if you are a Kindler...

I have read just about every book on toddler psychology, toddler taming, discipline etc that is on the market - and some that are out of print - and this has been the best of any of them. I recommended it to our child psychotherapist and she was impressed as well.

 

[TravelingGal]

Mine's now 3.5. I've tried it a few ways and find this is best.

Me: Amelia, do not do X. One more time, and we will be having a time out.

(Amelia does X).

Me: OK Amelia, time out!

(I go pour wine, lock myself in the bathroom and ignore screaming child while self medicating.)

Works for me every time.

 

[Dreamer_D]

And that is why you are awesome TGal. Miss you lady!

 

[Logan Sapphire]

I second the 1,2,3 Magic method of time outs. If DD doesn't sit and stay for her TOs, we just repeatedly put her back until she gets the message. It also says that if you use the child's room for a TO, you need to childproof if in the event they go crazy and tear the room apart.

I've done TOs on the go. I'm sure there have been parents who wonder why I'm sitting in my mini-van with a 1.5 year old sitting in his carseat while a 3 year old wails and thrashes in the back row.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I like "1, 2, 3 Magic." Child misbehaves, mom says "that's one." Child does it again, mom says "that's two." Child does the same thing again in a short amount of time, mom says, "that's three, [insert child's age]" If the child knows something is unacceptable (like aggression/hitting/spitting) mom says "that's three, take [insert child's age]". You skip the other warnings. I don't ask her to say she is sorry. The author says that promotes lying and I agree. Time outs for us started behind the sofa (she was trapped). Once she understood she had to sit by herself she had a special chair. Now she takes a "stair." I do think so I can basically give her a time-out anywhere. Sunday it was a curb of a parking lot. I extend the time if she moves. I also remind her she CHOSE the behavior so she CHOSE her time-out.

 

[TravelingGal]

And that is why you are awesome TGal. Miss you lady!

Hehehe. For the record though, I don't really do time outs anymore. We're now onto reality based parenting...basically I just let her make her choices and show her the consequences. Works well, especially when fun things don't happen for the rest of the day because of the choices she's made.

But when we did time outs, we started in a cage. She wasn't much of a climber though. Then went to the wall with her hands on it. If she tried to run away (which she did a couple of times here and there), I just dragged her back until she plopped on the floor and cried her eyes out.

 

[D&T]

For us, we do a count up rule (to 5 this works for us)... and it goes something like this:

Me; stop chasing tink and pulling her tail
C/M: keeps playing doesn't listen or "no!"
Me: ok... If I get to five, you lose a toy and go time out (or whatever they treasure for a day and they have to earn it back)
C/M: continues to disobey
Me: 1... 2....3....4... (for the most part they usually stop before 5)
C/M: doesn't stop
Me: 5! TO and you lose Mr. snuggly pick a spot and sit in TO for (age = minutes) and if you whine, make a noise in TO then the timer starts all over (there was one incident with my oldest where she stayed in time out for 18 minutes! when she was 3yrs but since learned.

When they are done in time out, I will always give hugs and hold them for a few minutes and ask them why mommy put C/M in time out, and that they need to earn back their toy over a period of one day, usually by good behavior and no time out for one whole day.


I have given time out before at the grocery store and restaurant as well, but I try to be discreet about it, but will discipline where ever i am.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Went and bought 123 Magic. Hope to read it before Ryder is 3.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Went and bought 123 Magic. Hope to read it before Ryder is 3.

It's an easy read. I have been talking about it on PS for years. Good luck!

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Caveat - I don't have kids yet.

I'm a big supernanny fan, so I would do it her way.

1. Get down to eye-level and give a warning about how they should stop doing the naughty behaviour.
2. (If the naughty behaviour keeps up) take them by the hand and place them on the naughty step/stool/chair/etc., explaining that they're being placed there for not listening to mummy.
3. They have to spend a minute on the naughty step for every year of their age.
4. If they leave the step before their time is done, the timer is reset, and they're placed back without eye contact or conversation (i.e. NO talking to them no matter how much they try to get your attention).
5. After their time is done, and this can take hours if they keep getting up, go down to eye-level again, repeat why you placed them there and ask for an apology.
6. After you get your apology, hugs and kisses to show that you forgive and still love them.

Pretty much this; except we don't do the apology thing because after the time out my son will usually come running saying that he's sorry and want you to give him hugs and kisses.

We put our son (3 years) in the hallway for time out. Sometimes he gets up and runs and he goes right back, clock starting over each time. Other times, like if he just wants to throw a tanty, then he goes into his room, shuts the door and we let him have his tanty in there where we can ignore him. If he just needs a moment to adjust his attitude then we leave him where he is and ignore him and he usually gets over it pretty fast once he realizes we don't care if he whines/cries. Oh the drama of being a three year old!

 

[Newjewels]

I am usually unsuccessful when I ask for an apology. Then I never know what to do when I ask her to apologize and she refuses. She is so stubborn!

Pandora, do you have your child in therapy? I would be in therapy for myself if I had the time, but I have recently often wondered if child therapists exist, or maybe just a marriage/ family counselor type person would work, to offer parenting techniques or help with frustrating situations. How is one supposed to know the right way to be a parent? I guess people just do what makes sense to them, but I really don't want to raise a brat (DD is nearing 2.5 and some unpleasant behaviors are emerging).

Maybe I will try 1, 2, 3 Magic, but I've bought parenting books in the past and never read them because there's too much "fluff" to sort through before getting to anything helpful. I do read a lot for pleasure so it's not that I don't like to read, but if I only ever read parenting books or other educational books I might lose my mind .

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Newjewels, there are play therapists that work with children. They are usually non-directive and there can be amazing results. Also there are filial classes where a play therapist teaches parents how to play with your child ((I took a course for school). My daughter is also stubborn and 3.5 has been by far the worst behavior. Hope your daughter mellows out a bit!

 

[Pandora II]

I am usually unsuccessful when I ask for an apology. Then I never know what to do when I ask her to apologize and she refuses. She is so stubborn!

Pandora, do you have your child in therapy? I would be in therapy for myself if I had the time, but I have recently often wondered if child therapists exist, or maybe just a marriage/ family counselor type person would work, to offer parenting techniques or help with frustrating situations. How is one supposed to know the right way to be a parent? I guess people just do what makes sense to them, but I really don't want to raise a brat (DD is nearing 2.5 and some unpleasant behaviors are emerging).

Maybe I will try 1, 2, 3 Magic, but I've bought parenting books in the past and never read them because there's too much "fluff" to sort through before getting to anything helpful. I do read a lot for pleasure so it's not that I don't like to read, but if I only ever read parenting books or other educational books I might lose my mind .

Child Psychotherapists do indeed exist! I've been lucky enough to see one of the best in London for the last year - on the National Health Service so completely free as well.

I have bipolar disorder and in my area, the local hospital runs the only maternal and peri-natal mental health unit in the UK. As soon as I got pregnant I was referred to them and they follow you through the pregnancy, labour and post-natal. I had a bad time with severe ante-natal depression, then a traumatic birth and 3 days afterwards I completely lost the plot to the point that they moved my husband into the hospital for the rest of the week!

After I came out, they visited me at home every week for the first year. I was offered a place at a Mother & Baby/Toddler group for women with mental health issues and have been going since my daughter was 7 months old. It has been great and I've made some good friends - most of the women have had PPD or PPP and then there are a few of us with pre-existing conditions. However, you honestly wouldn't guess that anyone had anything, but if someone is having a bad time (one girl has been in and out of hospital this year and is distinctly out of it when we do see her) then no-one judges or thinks you are an axe-murder or feels that they don't want their child near her/her child. It means that you can also see other people when you are ill and know that they understand and don't mind that you are monosyllabic and depressed or high as a kite which is really important as it's quite embarrassing at times and you tend to get very socially isolated.

The people running it are a mix of adult mental health and child mental health teams and they spotted that I was struggling with Daisy - first of all with her then terrible separation anxiety and refusal to eat and then in dealing with my increasingly negative feelings towards her and issues around discipline. So, they referred me for child psychotherapy. So it wasn't that I decided that my kid needed therapy or anything - I was actually quite shocked and upset at first.

A lot of it was play therapy (Daisy LOVED going) and looking at issues in my own childhood and how I was parented and how I was modelling my parents unhealthy behaviours totally subconciously and the effect that was having on Daisy and our relationship. It hasn't turned me into a perfect parent or Daisy into a perfect child but it has given me a lot more confidence and I've really challenged some of the assumptions I had about myself.

It was also great to have someone to run things past when I wasn't sure how to react or what was normal. Example - D won't hold my hand in the street. I tell her if she doesn't I'll take her dolly away. Daisy turns round and hands me the dolly. Pandora wonders what the **** do I do now. Answer: I am still in control and she still has to do what I say. But it took some discussion for me to realise that what might be fair/unfair amongst two adults doesn't work that way with young kids - they are not your equals!

I've finished seeing her, but she has referred me on for a year of individual psychotherapy (again for free). In the meantime, we still go to the Toddler Group (aka Nutters and Babies) which stops when the child goes to pre-school/school full-time. Daisy has an amazing time there and the other kids are really nice.

There are a lot of great books out there. The people I see work a lot with the Tavistock Clinic here in London and they publish books on different ages of toddler and their emotional development which are well worth reading (and available on Kindle). I have another load of books as well that I can give you the names of the ones that work for me if that helps.

I don't know if there is anything in your area, but here in London there are a lot of free parenting courses - they last around 12 weeks and are 3 hours per week looking at different situations and topics around parenting. However they are group based and the children aren't there.

 

[Pandora II]

Just to add that I think being a Child Psychotherapist is a very specialised area and I wouldn't want to see a general counsellor, marriage guidance person or whatever as a substitute.

 

[Newjewels]

Thank you so much for the information, Pandora! I really appreciate you being so honest and open about your experience. Sounds like there are lots of great resources in London, that is so wonderful. And the free part is not too shabby, either !

I will be interested to look into whether similar programs exist here in the states. I don't live in a big city, though. Actually it's really a resorty/ heavy retirement community but the numbers of young families are increasing. I have had my daughter in a playgroup since she was 6 months old, but she still won't play freely with the kids in the group (she is now almost 2.5). She is very attached to me and has what I interpret as separation anxiety. But when she's around her cousin who she knows well, they play independently just fine! I was very shy as a child, so she most likely is shy like I was. I need to learn how to encourage social interaction for her without making her feel insecure, and things like that.

Again, thNks so much for sharing and for your help! Daisy is lucky to have a really good mommy! Or is it mummy ??

 

[Pandora II]

Thank you so much for the information, Pandora! I really appreciate you being so honest and open about your experience. Sounds like there are lots of great resources in London, that is so wonderful. And the free part is not too shabby, either !

I will be interested to look into whether similar programs exist here in the states. I don't live in a big city, though. Actually it's really a resorty/ heavy retirement community but the numbers of young families are increasing. I have had my daughter in a playgroup since she was 6 months old, but she still won't play freely with the kids in the group (she is now almost 2.5). She is very attached to me and has what I interpret as separation anxiety. But when she's around her cousin who she knows well, they play independently just fine! I was very shy as a child, so she most likely is shy like I was. I need to learn how to encourage social interaction for her without making her feel insecure, and things like that.

Again, thNks so much for sharing and for your help! Daisy is lucky to have a really good mommy! Or is it mummy ??

Definitely 'mummy'

I have always been very open about having manic depression (to my grandmother's horror) as I think it's helpful for people to know that you can have a serious mental illness and yet be a constructive member of society, have a job, have positions of authority and in the public arena (I was a politician in London for 4 years until 2010), be a parent and a generally normal person!

Daisy had terrible separation anxiety from about 5 months till she was about 20 months. I literally couldn't go out without her unless DH could take her and even then it wasn't always great. The few times I left her with a baby sitter she would scream from when I left until when I came back 3 or 4 hours later. No-one could touch her or pick her up without complete hysterics, I couldn't even go into another room without her and at playgroup she would sit on my knee the entire time.

I had religiously done Attachment Parenting (a la Dr Sear) - she was worn in a sling constantly, we co-sleep (still) and I am still breast-feeding (although getting to the point of wanting to wean quite badly!) and she was never, ever allowed to cry on her own. Basically I had done everything possible to make her a happy, confident, independent child and here I was with the clingiest, least independent child of all my friends... what had I done wrong I asked. Tee hee said my Gina Ford following friends who let their week-old baby CIO...

A friend recommended Dr Sear's 'Fussy Baby Book' and it was incredibly helpful. I kept ploughing on, the child experts kept telling me it was a phase and it would end. To never push her to be more independent, to continue to do the AP behaviours that I had always done and just wait. They also pointed out that Daisy has quite a large personal space need - she doesn't like people to come into it unless she has approached first.

Around 20 months she did a 180 degree behaviour shift. Now she is the most confident, independent child I know. She started nursery a few weeks ago for 2 days a week. I drop her off at 9am and she can barely be bothered to say goodbye. When I come to pick her up at 4pm she bursts into tears and tells me to go away and go home as she wants to stay. She plays nicely with all the other children. She's the first to be up dancing or doing anything in a group and organises all the other kids.

Part of it is probably genetic - I don't think anyone would ever label me as a wallflower, I tend to be very confident in social situations and tend to take control in groups (yup, I'm a bossy cow ) despite being an introvert with a lot of need for alone time. My husband is pretty similar, so it was likely that our child would inherit some of that. But I think we have also given her a huge amount of confidence that we will always be there.

I think you just need to keep encouraging without pushing. Children don't usually start playing together until they are a bit older - parallel play is more normal at this age (unless they are fighting over the same toy). If she just wants to sit on your knee and watch the others then let her - but suggest she might try certain toys or activities. Often if kids get engrossed in something like colouring or play-doh they forget their anxiety. I would recommend the Fussy Baby Book (not a great title IMO as it's more useful for other types of children I think) and I'll see if I can think of any others.

 

[Newjewels]

I will check out the Fussy baby Book, thanks for the tip! I do try to encourage without pushing. Sometimes I get frustrated with her clinging, but I try not to show it!

Thanks again, Pandora!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Thought I would update!

Time outs are working very well now. The first few times were rough, and he will still sometimes run off 5-6 times before staying, but it is getting better. I have not read 123 magic yet because frankly, my life is a madhouse right now and I don't have time BUT we have followed the tips here and only use times outs for truly horrid acts. Mostly hitting us, his brother or the dog. For other times when he just is plain old not listening, it is "1-2-3 lose the toy". Or "1-2-3 Mommy will put your damn socks on for you". These things seem to work and generally it has made life better. But he is a ferociously independent and stubborn child. Being his parent is very hard work!

Here is a story you all might appreciate.

Today I took both kids with me to the mall. I don't have a double stroller, so I had the 4 month old in my ergo carrier, and Hunter was in a little push car thing the malls let you use.

When it was time to leave, then, I had the infant and a diaper bag to carry, which meant Hunter had to voluntarily follow me You know where this is going right? As we were going, Hunter spotted some toys and it was "One more minute mama! One more minute!" while he examined all the objects in sight.

Finally I said "Hunter you have to the count of three to come with me or I am going to carry you out!" This works abot 50% of the time, and I was hoping it was one of those times he would follow me before I got to three!

Ooooonnnne. Twwwwooooo. Thhhhreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Sigh. Nope. So I grabbed him like a sack of potatoes and marched out of the mall loaded down like a pack mule. Luckily he did not tantrum or I think I would have keeled over. All he did was hold tight to the ergo straps and say "You are holding me too tight mama!" My 4 month old was delighted to have Hunter's face right next to his. I think Hunter found it sortof fun too.

I consider that a win.

 

[lliang_chi]

OMG, Dreamer I *LOVE* the story! You're a SUPER mom, and yes, definitely consider it a win. I'm glad things are going OK for you with Hunter's time outs. Hopefully things will get better. Has the special Hunter-time also helped a little? I remember in another thread, you mentioned you were going to read to him or something along those lines.

~LC