How do you know if they''re truthful?...HELP!

[gem-newbie]

I''m so confused...help! I came across this site because I started investigating diamond purchasing. My fiance and I went window-shopping for an engagement ring last night and it can be so confusing!

We''re looking for around a .75 carat round solitaire. We were at two family-owned jewelers and two chains (Kay Jewelers and Rogers & Hollands). The first family-owned shop was helpful and seemed nice. He showed us two diamonds under the scope but didn''t give us any dimensions. One was .86 round, F SI1 for $3,635 certified. The other one was .76 round, F VVS for $3,790-but wasn''t certified. (Both of these were the stone only price...but we viewed the stones within a setting.) He said that the VVS wouldn''t be around long-that it was a great stone at a great price-and we shouldn''t wait too long. After pushing for certification, he talked with the owner, who talked with the gemologist, who said they could send it out for certification for $150. Then, when we hesitated, the owner came and said they would pay for the cert. The catch was that we had to buy the ring first-then they''d send it out (which would take 2 weeks) and then if it didn''t certify, we could get our money back. But when we went back and looked at it again under the scope (after looking at about 12 other rings at other places) we saw a tiny "feather" that he said he couldn''t see! He said he looks at different things in the diamond and that we may be seeing the setting...and we could look at it another time (the store was closing) "unset" and it probably wouldn''t appear. He also said they only buy loose diamonds that are "well-cut".

The other family-owned place couldn''t touch the first one''s price in the same carat-color-clarity.

Kay''s had a .70 E SI1 that looked beautiful for $4,499 (5.70 x 5.72 x 3.50 - good/good)...and that was certified with the number engraved on the girdle (but that was more expensive than the other one.)

Rogers & Hollands scoffed at our "over-education and paranoia" about cut/clarity/"fingerprint", etc. of the stone (things we were picking up at other places and from previous reading) and when we mentioned the stats on the first ring told us that THEY couldn''t even PURCHASE a stone with those specs for that price...so we should just go back and buy from that place (we didn''t tell them where, but they did mention that that one particular store was their only real competitor in the mall). They were really pushing a .74 round E SI1 that was 5.86 x 5.87 x 3.48 - good/good that they showed was beautifully more "shiny" than a VS they had there (they said it was cut better). But when we looked at it under the scope, we couldn''t really see the "star". Also, it''s "birthmark" (as they called it) was a big air-bubble looking thing. They said we could have that for $3,999 out-the-door price with mounting. They said they could send it out for a more "detailed" analysis/cert. after we purchased it. And they said no one could top their guarantee.

Today I have been reading up more about diamonds, and although we want to buy in-person (we won''t buy over the internet) I am now feeling skeptical about all of those places last night...and am getting completely confused on how to tell who''s being honest with you!

Any comments on our shopping last night, and advice for getting a good stone at a decent price and reputable place? Thanks much!

 

[icelovr]

Hello Newbie - and welcome!

Just a few things to consider -

1st - I would say forget the B&M's - their overhead in maintaining inventory and the retail personnel is often reflected in their prices and you also will pay for it in quality.

2nd - Consider a G instead of an F - the educated eye even pulls out the master set to compare; if you go w/ a G you will end up w/ a larger stone, a cleaner stone - or just more $ to put toward your savings account.

3rd - Revisit the internet purchase idea. There are many reputable sites listed on this forum (see pricescope at the top of this page)... I personally like Dirtcheapdiamonds.com. They are very helpful, reasonably priced (just take a look at the F/SI1 prices there

). Jim is patient and will work w/ you - he's not out to make a quick buck.
Just my thoughts -
Icelovr

 

[dimonbob]

Welcome to the Forum gem-newbie

You are being told a bunch of whoppers so slow down.

There are plenty of diamonds out there so don't get pushed.
You should only consider diamonds with a GIA or AGS certificates. One of your jewelers said he could get it certitied in a couple of weeks for $150. Not at GIA, he won't. Maybe at AGS. Just tell them you are only interested in diamonds that are already certified by GIA or AGS...period. Stay fast on that point. You don't want to see anything else.

They are both showing you regular diamonds. If you want to get her something that will out perform (more brilliancy, fire and light return) all of those regular diamonds, find something with an AGS ideal or GIA excellent report.

Go back to the Pricescope page and click on the Search by Cut Quality and put in .70-.85 E-F VVS2-VS2. You will get several diamonds from several vendors that will out perform anything those stores can offer at a price that they cannot match.

This is a no brainer. Think about an e-diamond. You cannot loose.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 11/2/2003 5:29:22 PM gem-newbie wrote:

I'm so confused...help!

Rogers & Hollands scoffed at our 'over-education and paranoia' about cut/clarity/'fingerprint', etc. of the stone (things we were picking up at other places and from previous reading) and when we mentioned the stats on the first ring told us that THEY couldn't even PURCHASE a stone with those specs for that price...so we should just go back and buy from that place (we didn't tell them where, but they did mention that that one particular store was their only real competitor in the mall). They were really pushing a .74 round E SI1 that was 5.86 x 5.87 x 3.48 - good/good that they showed was beautifully more 'shiny' than a VS they had there (they said it was cut better).

Any comments on our shopping last night, and advice for getting a good stone at a decent price and reputable place? Thanks much!----------------

Car dealers used to react the same way before the onset of educated buyers. Most probably, you were dealing with people who either know less than you do or are trying to pull one over on you.

As to the cut measurements you mentioned,.... I have a .766 carat I bought from White Flash with a 6 mm diameter. That should tell you something. Believe it or not, .14 mm is a noticible difference in a side by side comparison. My .766 carat looks like most Maul and chain store 1 carat diamonds. A comparable diamond would have cost me $800 more, before taxes, at a local B&M, and was nearly double in price at Helzberg's.

I completely understand your feeling of wanting to buy live and in person. I was that way. But the more I looked around locally and the more I learned here, I realized I could purchase a MUCH nicer CUT diamond for less money through a Price Scope Vendor than I could locally. Not counting taxes! Try finding a couple diamond BROKERS near you. Make appointments and go in to look and learn. Diamond BROKERS will likely have more than 2 diamonds for you to look at and compare. They are also far more likely to have nearly Ideal and Ideal CUTS on hand for viewing. Once you see the difference in performance, you will know what you want.

 

[goofyboob]

Congrats on the impending engagement!!

I love diamonds. It is now a hobby but was my living for more than five years. I can grade, appraise, set, and select diamonds. I have managed a "mom and pop" custom jewelry shop. We helped customers choose the right diamond for their budget, and we could even design a custom band for it. We had a total of 6 employees (that included the owner and his wife).
Now that I'm finished with the background....just a recommendation: you need to keep searching. You have just begun. You need to find a jeweler you can trust, even if means spending and extra 100 dollars. It will be more than worth it in the long run. I recommend a small, private shop. Unlike the big mall stores and internet sites, small shops DEPEND on you for their well being, therefore, they are more likely to entice you with extra high quality and a lower price.
The cut is the most expensive aspect of a diamond, unless you are seeking a flawless, D color diamond. Ideal cuts are more rare. "Nearly" ideal cuts are more affordable, but are much higher quality that the dimensions you have stated seeing. I worked at a mall store when I was young, and they train the clerks to avoid talking about cut (it's how they make money), at least the three majors stores I worked at avoided good cuts. If I still sold diamonds (I still have wholesale contacts, mind you), and you came into my shop, I would probably advise you to go with a "G" color. Even a diamond grader would need to consult his master set to tell between an "F" and a "G". If money is an issue (it always is for me) I would recommend an SI1 at the absolute lowest, but would probably show you a VS2. Keep in mind that your friends will not carry around a microscope to check your new rock. I would always show the the diamond under a scope (not just a loupe), with no mounting around it. There is a good chance you were seeing the mounting in the other diamond, but the only way to eliminate doubt is to show it to you loose. A reputable jeweler will never hesitate to show you the loose stone. Not all good diamonds are certified, but a good jeweler will always be willing to have a diamond certified by the company of your choice. There may be a small fee included, but they should at least be willing to split the cost with you. (a good certification IS NOT cheap). Always stick with GIA, AGS, or Stuller. On a professional level, I have had nothing but bad experiences with EGL and IGI.
Sorry, this is kinda long winded.
I checked today's markets, and the places I used to purchase diamonds. If I were helping you, I could offer you a .74ct round diamond, G, VS2, that was only .50% from an ideal cut. I would offer you a choice of a platinum or 18k y or w 6 prong solitaire mount free of charge(custom in my shop, often sized and mounted within 24 hrs, and you can watch.) GIA certified, appraised, engraved. Total price in my market would only be US $3100. That includes full service forever, and a smiling face to answer questions. When you find a jeweler you can trust, you will probably find a similar offer. (I would also offer help in findng the proper insurance, etc.)
The small shop I worked at purchased all tools, diamonds, gems, gold, etc. right here in the USA. (unlike alot of internet sights)
I have appraise hundreds of diamonds. Many where purchased on internet sights, but I didn't know it until afer I finished the appraisal. Most of the time the purchaser's diamond appraised for about what he paid for it(not the wonderful deal he thought), but then he had to buy a mounting. My advice: be very careful, you can spend a fortune on bargains.
Well, good luck. Wish I still sold diamonds, would love to help you. Find a jeweler you can trust. It could take months, but it will be worth it. Plus, it should always feel good to help your local economy and job market.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Goofyboob wrote:




Unlike the big mall stores and internet sites, small shops DEPEND on you for their well being, therefore, they are more likely to entice you with extra high quality and a lower price.




GB,




I think you bring up good points in your post, but I also see that you might be re-acting on your personal and proffesional experience within the capacity of running a small "mom & pop" operation yourself.




I think personal interatcion and face to face purchase is more traditional, but the truth is some internet sites and mall stores are different all together in the quality of goods they offer and the overhead which is involved in running one or the other.




To put these 2 in the same category is wrong, because the truth is most internet sites run with lower overhead which gives consumers more purchasing power for higher quality goods...In this case being ideal cut diamonds.




There are reputable internet vendors which have access to some of the finest performing diamonds in the world, with the best customer service and lifetime satisfaction gaurantee along with trade ups for future upgrades and impeccable service if you should ever encounter any problems with your ring or stone, and will spend hours searching or talking with you on the phone.




There is more of a "checks & balances" when dealing with internet vendors vs. mall stores when it comes to consumer feedback because of sites like this. I think you bring up some valid points about better purchasing power and a more personalized face to face approach, but to direct this consumers attention towards a local jeweler might not be to the best of his advantage and possibilities available...




The truth is no matter how you market your business whether it's small mom and pop, internet, or mall stores everyone DEPENDS on our business. The emphasis should be placed on how business is conducted and the information and choices which are offered.....




-Just my 2 cents......

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Hi Gem-Newbie,




DiamondBob gives very sound advice.




I just did a price search based on the exact dimensions of stones you listed.




I came up with several matches for all the carat weights you listed.




All these diamonds have either AGS "0" ideal/ideal or GIA ex/ex and are confirmed hearts and arrows stones.




The prices are right up with the prices you qouted (in a couple cases were better) in diamonds which have much better cut grades and will no doubt outperform the stones you were qouted....




Take your time to read the pricescope tutorial and don't rush into anything...

 

[valeria101]

Finding a certified stone below 1ct is not an easy encounter. So, I would consiser B&M's atitude about certification just average-towards-nice (they offered to get a certificate AND pay). Maybe you can even cut the time delay. Otherwise, maybe you could save time for getting the mounting done in the meantime? Anyway, I would not consider a speck seen via loupe in a mounted stone good evidence that the piece is not VVS as claimed! First of all, the stone had not been even cleaned and I am no specialist (so, I could have easily be picking up some optical characteristic instead of inclusion). Maybe someone can correct me, but, according to some piece of litarature I've came accross, a VVS grade would take confirmation from a second grader even in a professional invironment. SO... all I would check is how well can I trust the returnn policy of the seller (something I can do, as oposed to grading). After all, that jeweler would not be in business if he would be stealing for a living, I supose. Prices seem good, but, if you want to base your purchase on your knowledge of H&As, than probably the NET is better at that kind of sale, at least AFTER your jeweler declares he cannot provide a choice of certified H&As of your specs. So? Welcome to Pricescope!

 

[Mikesgirl]

-------------------------
Kay's had a .70 E SI1 that looked beautiful for $4,499 (5.70 x 5.72 x 3.50 - good/good)...and that was certified with the number engraved on the girdle (but that was more expensive than the other one.)
-------------------------

Just as a point of comparison - I got my .70 G VS2 at Blue Nile (supposedly one of the more expensive internet sites) for $3,299. 5.77 x 5.75 x 3.49 AGS Ideal000, (engraved on the girdle) .7 HCA. Stay away from the Mall stores!

 

[gem-newbie]

Thank you to all of you who responded to my post. You've been very helpful. I think we will discuss, and possibly reconsider, purchasing over the internet. At least we'll start browsing around on some of the places recommended by all of you and pricescope. This site has been extremely helpful. I've printed up a lot of information to read over to help us in our selection.

The other day I just wasn't sure who was being honest with us at the mall - they ALL claimed that they were the best (and most honest)!

Thanks again...and any other comments/advice would be appreciated. I'm sure as we keep searching, I'll be posting again with more questions!