How do you all deal with not so constructive criticism?

[allycat0303]

Ok so I''m fuming here. Read FUMING. Does it ever happen in job/work related when a boss/teacher makes what seems like a contructive criticism but it''s actually based in something else?

We work in small groups in class, and it was my turn to do the diagram (so basically a huge diagram with all the concepts) and present it to the group. So I worked really hard on it and it was really, really good. The only thing is in french there''s these things called "accents" which go on certain words. Now MOST computers don''t have them, so you can''t put them in a power-point like presentation. Anyways, so at the end of my presentation, all the people in the group are like "wow, great work etc."

And she says to me, "you''re spelling is hideous, you have mistakes on every second word" (ok, accents don''t go on every second word and I did SPECIFICALLY apologize in the beginning). So I say "Yes I''ve been told that, I''m very sorry." (super politely) When I spell in french I can make mistakes in sentence construction, but this diagram was all LISTS. So then I''m leaving and she says "well medicine is a really conservative profession, and if you make mistakes like that as an intern you''re not going to make it anywhere" again I say "I''m sorry." And then she goes on, "the doctors are just going to spend all their time putting big red marks all over your case histories and just rip them up."

And at this point I am getting MAD

. So I tell her, super politely but firmly, that my Hospital supervisor (who is the director of the program) who has read all of my case histories, feels that although I do make grammer mistakes, I have absolutely no problem making myself understood. We''ve discussed this particular issue repeatedly. He said that in all honesty, doctors scan the list, and don''t even make sentences because they want the pertinent info and that''s it. Whether or not it''s literature quality sentences has very little to do with it.

AND she says to that "well I don''t care what he says, you''re a long way from being comprehensive"

I don''t remember how I ended the conversation, but it ended there.

So here''s the thing, in Quebec many french-speaking people HATE english-speaking people. And my friend remarked that the first day when she came to see me, she spoke to me in english and the teacher gave a super-dirty look. And I''ve done about 30 such presentations (in french) before and this is the FIRST time I''ve heard anything like this. I mean when giving constructive criticism you don''t use exaggerated terms like "every second word". Especially on maybe 100 words there''s 10 words missing the accent on them.

BUT now, I feel really bad, because I don''t know if what I said was enough to make her hate me enough to fail me (she owns 20% of my grade). So I''m really worried. But at the same time, I thought it was REALLY unfair, but was I unspeakly rude? Or should have handled it less or more? Or even how to handle it? This happens a lot in my school, mainly because once in a while you meet up with a boss that despises english-speaking people, and I never know how to deal with it. It''s really frustrating and annoying, because they automatically dislike you if they can sense that you are english-speaking. When I talk, my english accent is virtually undetectable, but when I write it becomes really obvious.

Oh yes, and ALL of the books used in my program are in ENGLISH, which is obviously even worst because you have to translate them in french. And things obviously get lost in the translation.

Thanks guys. I''m supposed to be studying but I''m really worried about this.

 

[Mara]

i don't know if you were unspeakably rude since you said you don't remember how you ended the convo, but that it just ended there. so assuming all you said was as you wrote 'i'm sorry' and your explanation of what your supervisor told you, then i don't think you were rude. but if you said something else you can't remember like 'stuff it'...haha then maybe.

most of your post is spent explaining why you feel you were right and she was wrong. but sometimes it's not about being right or wrong. if this woman has control over your grade, you should try to take the criticism and appear as though you really want to do better next time rather than argue with her about why it was unsatisfactory (to her). because she could really want to mess with you if she feels you are totally not listening or absorbing what she is saying. she is in a power position and you are not, unfortunately. but you will experience this all through life when bosses might try to tell you things you don't agree with but you have to kind of take (to a level)....develop a way to deal with it now to make it easier on yourself.

it sounds to me like she is just not a very happy person overall and she was being rude, but really you need to think about how you want this to end aka probably with a positive grade?...and act accordingly.

 

[decodelighted]

I don''t think what you said was rude - you just stuck up for yourself by recounting an actual situation where your grammar had come up (i.e. -- facts).

I can understand why you''re upset -- but you should realize that there is unfair, non-constructive criticism all over in life -- not just the classroom. MOST people don''t understand or have the sophistication to give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. They just don''t.

If she wasn''t calling you names (i.e. - "you idiot") or screaming ... it doesn''t veer into abusive territory. It''s just vaguely "rude". IMO.

 

[sumbride]

I don''t feel you were "unspeakably rude" by any means! I do think you have the right to stand up for yourself! I''m hoping this professor is just having a bad day and will get over it by the time your final grade rolls around, but maybe you should have a talk with her in her office?

I had a few professors that I disagreed with over some issues but usually a face-to-face (in private) conversation reassured me that they could be fair. I even got one to give an apology to the whole class because I felt that remark he wrote on my paper wasn''t constructive! He didn''t mention my name, and I feel like I probably wasn''t the only one it applied to, but after our tearful conversation he told me he was sorry he let his personal feelings get in the way and he would apologize to the class for it! BOY did that help me get through his class!


And besides... why do doctors need to have perfect grammar? They''re supposed to have horrible handwriting, so who can tell? Just hire an assistant that can take care of it for you!

 

[jcrow]

i just wanted to say that there are ways to do accents and such. do a google search for standard character access chart if you are on a pc.
hope this helps.

 

[allycat0303]

I deal so badly with this english-french divide thing. It''s very frustrating because it feels a lot like being discriminated against. It''s not a rare thing with english-speaking students, they''ve all been through it but it''s the first time I''ve been through it.

I don''t know. I wish I remember exactly how I ended it. I think I said "I''ll try harder next time" and left. But I think the general theme of my attidude was *defensive* and I''m usually not defensive about criticism, but when the base is the english-french thing, I just get really GRRR.... for one thing because I think it''s WRONG (as in morally so) but at the same time this is a person in the position of power. So if I keep apologizing, I feel like a hypocrite, but if I get defensive I feel guilty.

Sumbride: So you think I should talk to her about it? I thought about it, but my friend told me not to. She said "the teacher hates english people, and nothing you say is EVER going to change that" so I''m not the fence about it. Prejudice on this thing runs deep, so I''m afraid to venture there, but at the same time I really don''t want to fail.

 

[Mara]

I kind of agree with your friend. What if you try to talk to her and it turns out the same way? Then it''s even a worse situation. I''d just try to be better about not being defensive since you know that you do get that way on this topic. You can think she is wrong and not tell her you think she is wrong...just try to remember she gives you a grade!

 

[allycat0303]

Mara,

Well I''m kind of stuck because, if I were to talk to her I would just suck it up and apologize (if the feeling is that I''ve been unspeakably rude to her). My pointing out that she hates english-speaking people wouldn''t be any good because she''s about 40 years old and this is usually pretty deep-rooted hate going back grand-parents to great-great grand parents so me speaking up about that is not going to help.

Ugh. I feel like an idiot. Honestly, my parents are immigrants to this country. My family was in Vietnam during the whole brewing of this thing. I have no stake nor involvement in the french vs. english thing other then the fact that when we came to Canada my parents sent me to english school. I should have just kept my mouth shut and created less trouble for myself. It''s just so frustrating.

Jcrow: I know about the french-accent google thing. Thanks sweetie! The program we use for the diagrams doesn''t allow us to put accents in (none of the other students put accents in their diagram either copy paste of the individual letter doesn''t work either). If there are other suggestions though...

 

[sumbride]

Date: 5/15/2007 2:43:53 PM
Author: allycat0303

Sumbride: So you think I should talk to her about it? I thought about it, but my friend told me not to. She said ''the teacher hates english people, and nothing you say is EVER going to change that'' so I''m not the fence about it. Prejudice on this thing runs deep, so I''m afraid to venture there, but at the same time I really don''t want to fail.

Well you certainly know the atmosphere better than I do... but I do think you can''t feel like you''ve done everything until you''ve talked to her... if the prejudice is really that deep-seated... then why is it tolerated? Of course, I went to a very liberal university where such a thing would NEVER be tolerated... so it''s bizarre to me. Do you have any student advocacy people at your school that could offer advice/support?

It''s funny that she sees you (Vietnamese) as being "English"(speaking) when Vietnam was a French colony... but I wouldn''t go pointing that out to her.

 

[Kaleigh]

Ally,
I have no clue what you should do. All of this is soooo strange to me, but wanted to say good luck. I hope it all works out for you. Any chance you can speak to your academic advisor?? Or would that backfire??

 

[jcrow]

Date: 5/15/2007 3:05:27 PM
Author: allycat0303
Mara,

Well I''m kind of stuck because, if I were to talk to her I would just suck it up and apologize (if the feeling is that I''ve been unspeakably rude to her). My pointing out that she hates english-speaking people wouldn''t be any good because she''s about 40 years old and this is usually pretty deep-rooted hate going back grand-parents to great-great grand parents so me speaking up about that is not going to help.

Ugh. I feel like an idiot. Honestly, my parents are immigrants to this country. My family was in Vietnam during the whole brewing of this thing. I have no stake nor involvement in the french vs. english thing other then the fact that when we came to Canada my parents sent me to english school. I should have just kept my mouth shut and created less trouble for myself. It''s just so frustrating.

Jcrow: I know about the french-accent google thing. Thanks sweetie! The program we use for the diagrams doesn''t allow us to put accents in (none of the other students put accents in their diagram either copy paste of the individual letter doesn''t work either). If there are other suggestions though...

ah well, i tried. i''ve always been on a mac, and only recently found out about the SCAC i posted about...
i can''t believe she is being so harsh when it seems others are faced with that same issue. i''m sure it''s not all about the accents, but still!

 

[jcrow]

Date: 5/15/2007 2:48:16 PM
Author: Mara
I kind of agree with your friend. What if you try to talk to her and it turns out the same way? Then it''s even a worse situation. I''d just try to be better about not being defensive since you know that you do get that way on this topic. You can think she is wrong and not tell her you think she is wrong...just try to remember she gives you a grade!

yeh, i agree. i think i''d just suck it up and remember that there are crappy people that you meet in life. know that you just have to deal with her for a little while and hopefully that will try to help you make it through.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Do you print the slides out for the class or just present them overhead? Maybe you could print them out and mark one copy with accents, then photocopy that for the class...

 

[allycat0303]

Sumbride: I KNOW! I was just talking about that to my guy! I mean I'm Viet, I look Viet, I'm so obviously not from here. I speak english and french (fluent french) but I write badly, but not as badly as 99% of english people and about 40% of native french speaking people. I had NOTHING to do with the english-french hate thing. Vietnam was a fench colony, and whatever wrongs english people committed against french people, my family, ancestors was REALLY not involved!

My province is different. Officially, it's a bilingual province but it's not. All school's are run and funded by the government. There are 2 english universities, and (I believe 6 french universities) so about a 1/3 ratio which is seen in elementry schools too. However, because many french-speaking people dislike-hate (depends on region) english people, there's a lot of regulations put up. For example there are language laws (YES, language laws) if you move to Quebec from US, you are OBLIGATED by law to send your child to french school (even though there are plenty of english schools) and ALL signs have to have the french language letters written more the 2X the size of english letters or you will get a HUGE fine. They want to protect their language in a english country, which I'm totally fine with. But when it gets nasty, it's really hard on people in the cross fire. There have been students that get ZERO on an assignement with the comment "this sounds like it was written by an english person" He was from Russia. English and french people in Quebec have a LONG history of hate, and amniosity which continues today. Urgh. I'm sure Anchor could tell you the reasons for it because she was born here. Since I did elementry school in english, I think the history they presented to us might not be how it is seen from the french-speaking people's point of view.

You seem to really get why I'm frustrated a bewildered, it makes as much sense to you as to me!

Kaleigh: Oh honey, you're so cute. I know it's bizzare. It's bizarre to me too. It's not a racism thing, but it's very, very close to it. Imagine racisim, toward a language instead of the color of your skin. That's the only way I can explain it.

Jcrow: It's such a silly problem I swear. Frustrations of the program we work with. It's not a commercial program like word or powerpoint, so frustrating. And I was SO sure she was going to say something. Call it projection or something, I was like, she doesn't like me because I'm english, she's going to see this as a direct insult to french people and she did! Crazy. Hugs! Thanks for sharing the pain of software programs!

 

[crown1]

hi! i don''t think that calling up the nation''s language or racial problems is going to solve your current dilema.

if your work was of a quality that it should be you will just have to suck it up and deal with the criticism until you can move on. that is assuming your time with this instructor is limited.

if you are not where you should be with the french language, and you intend to live in an area that requires you to be competent in it, you need to get some help to improve your french. if this is the case, i would approach the instructor and tell her i know my french is lacking and i am making plans for improving it and does she have suggestions that might help. i''d also seek out a computer that had the features needed for the french accents.

hopefully, you are over being angry by now. you are in a very difficult period with much expected of you and only you can make the call on what you need to do. i wish you luck in moving forward with your education. this of course is jmho and only offered as a different point of view. i do not speak french and am not fluent in any other language so i am not criticizing you.

 

[zdrastvootya]

I think we can expect federal services to be bilingual. My understanding is there''s only one officially bilingual province: New Brunswick.

Not that it helps, but in addition to the Anglo thing I believe there''s a sensitivity in Quebec to "foreign" looking people/kids speaking English. The perception being that they would speak English if they weren''t "forced" to speak French, ie. they''re not really supporters of French language. (However, as you say the Vietnamese have a history of speaking French.) I''ve heard stories about immigrant school kids getting detentions for speaking their native language at recess.

There''s that Parizeau speech (former premier of Quebec) blaming the immigrant vote for the failed separation referendum.

Z.

ps. does it help to think that the prejudices faced by previous generations and people in other places is probably far worse? (In a way, we''re kind of spoiled. We expect things to be fair People who came before knew that things wouldn''t be.)

pps. my rule is if I do something wrong I apologize. If someone keeps going on about it, I''m not going to apologize 4 times. (In your case, I don''t think you did anything "wrong". You just made mistakes. I think acknowledgement rather than apology is all that is required.)

 

[anchor31]

Ally - I''m so so sorry you have to go through this. I''m very good with written language, if you ever need to have something looked over (and accents put in), e-mail it to me, ok? I''ll be more than happy to do it for you. *big hugs*

And racism makes me SO MAD!!!

I think it''s well known that there always was animosity between the French and the English. And then the French discovered Canada in 1534, the English conquered it in 1608, yadda yadda yadda. The thing is, it was only very recently (the Quiet Revolution in the 60s) that the Québécois (French) have been able to be "maîtres chez soi" (masters at home). Before that, key positions in governments, companies, etc. were mainly occupied by people of English descent. To this day, the richest areas are still mainly English-speaking. I agree that changes were necessary to preserve our language and culture in the 60s. Did they go overboard? Maybe. Are those measures still necessary today? Maybe. Is the hate still warranted? NO!!!

Yup, I was born in Montreal, raised in a small town about an hour from there. Both my families are french-Canadian, my father''s from Québec and my mother''s from Ontario. Both my parents are bilingual; my dad learned in college at Ottawa U (where he met my mom), and my mom learned at a young age. I learned English from my mother in my early teens. There was never any conflict in my family about English vs French. Quite a few people in my mother''s family have married english-Canadian people. I hate this conflict, I hate this hate. I love Québec, and I love Canada.

Date: 5/15/2007 5:32:35 PM
Author: zdrastvootya
I think we can expect federal services to be bilingual. My understanding is there''s only one officially bilingual province: New Brunswick.

Not that it helps, but in addition to the Anglo thing I believe there''s a sensitivity in Quebec to ''foreign'' looking people/kids speaking English. The perception being that they would speak English if they weren''t ''forced'' to speak French, ie. they''re not really supporters of French language. (However, as you say the Vietnamese have a history of speaking French.) I''ve heard stories about immigrant school kids getting detentions for speaking their native language at recess.

There''s that Parizeau speech (former premier of Quebec) blaming the immigrant vote for the failed separation referendum.

Z.

ps. does it help to think that the prejudices faced by previous generations and people in other places is probably far worse? (In a way, we''re kind of spoiled. We expect things to be fair People who came before knew that things wouldn''t be.)

pps. my rule is if I do something wrong I apologize. If someone keeps going on about it, I''m not going to apologize 4 times. (In your case, I don''t think you did anything ''wrong''. You just made mistakes. I think acknowledgement rather than apology is all that is required.)

Are you from Québec? Your point is very interesting. Nothing justifies racism, but you''re probably right, and I do remember the Parizeau speech you mention. The recent "accomodement raisonnable" for immigrants debacle isn''t helping any either.

 

[starryeyed]

Date: 5/15/2007 4:30:53 PM
Author: crown1
if you are not where you should be with the french language, and you intend to live in an area that requires you to be competent in it, you need to get some help to improve your french. if this is the case, i would approach the instructor and tell her i know my french is lacking and i am making plans for improving it and does she have suggestions that might help. i''d also seek out a computer that had the features needed for the french accents.

Hi Ally! I''m so sorry that you are having this problem! It would seem to me that CONTENT is what really matters - not the accents.

I think Crown has a good suggestion here. Even if you don''t give a flying leap about French, perhaps the instructor would soften her harsh opinion of you if you go to her and ask for suggestions. Tell her you''ve thought carefully about what she''s said and you agree that it''s very important to improve your French. Even if you have to insert images of the accents from Photoshop, DO IT! Even if you don''t talk with her, do whatever you have to do to get the accents in the right places.

For whatever reason, this woman associates accents with competence. Use this to your advantage. My guess is she feel marginalized when it comes to language. If you just pay attention, it may win you some extra points, just for listening to her and seemingly respecting her language.

Good luck!

 

[rainbowtrout]

I have to say what I find amusing about this is that French-french speakers find Québécois nearly unintelligible...it has many similarities to the 17th century varient it grew out of..... sort of like someone with a very strong southern accent criticising someone else's English. Which DOES NOT mean that there is anything wrong with Canadian French or that it is less valid, I just find the snobbery amusing.

Language snobbery is often tied up in racism, sadly, since it's so deeply tied to ethnicity and culture.


Anyway, sorry about your teacher alleycat! I have to say that I would probably just find some dang way to put those accents in hereafter and avoid the hassle. And if your written French does need work maybe find a buddy to help you proofread things like reports and grant papers in the future (I don't know if you ever want to do clinical research....) However grossly unfair it is, people judge you on your spelling in written documents. Would you turn in an admissions essay missing an accent mark? Or a misspelled word, in English or French?

 

[peridot83]

As with all stereotypes, there is an overreaction when one feels their stereotypes or prejudices are confirmed. I imagine the professor was extra sore becuase it''s a "typical" mistake for "uncaring" English speakers to forget accents, since they are not important in our own language.

Again, it sucks, but you are dealing with a person who has ingrained negative prejudices and stereotypes and therefore it will be very easy for her to view any sensitive conversation in a negative light.

I imagine talking to your professor is a risk. She may not really remember what was said, or think you are insulting her professionalism. She may also think you are fishing for a better grade, or trying to rejustify why you should not be graded down for not having accent marks.

I would say, if this seriously starts to bug or haunt you, then after you get your grade, you may want to bring it up with her. Just to gain some closure about the class/her treatment of you as a whole or help aid future students.

 

[zdrastvootya]

Date: 5/15/2007 7:33:02 PM
Author: anchor31
Ally - I''m so so sorry you have to go through this. I''m very good with written language, if you ever need to have something looked over (and accents put in), e-mail it to me, ok? I''ll be more than happy to do it for you. *big hugs*

And racism makes me SO MAD!!!

I think it''s well known that there always was animosity between the French and the English. And then the French discovered Canada in 1534, the English conquered it in 1608, yadda yadda yadda. The thing is, it was only very recently (the Quiet Revolution in the 60s) that the Québécois (French) have been able to be ''maîtres chez soi'' (masters at home). Before that, key positions in governments, companies, etc. were mainly occupied by people of English descent. To this day, the richest areas are still mainly English-speaking. I agree that changes were necessary to preserve our language and culture in the 60s. Did they go overboard? Maybe. Are those measures still necessary today? Maybe. Is the hate still warranted? NO!!!

Yup, I was born in Montreal, raised in a small town about an hour from there. Both my families are french-Canadian, my father''s from Québec and my mother''s from Ontario. Both my parents are bilingual; my dad learned in college at Ottawa U (where he met my mom), and my mom learned at a young age. I learned English from my mother in my early teens. There was never any conflict in my family about English vs French. Quite a few people in my mother''s family have married english-Canadian people. I hate this conflict, I hate this hate. I love Québec, and I love Canada.

Date: 5/15/2007 5:32:35 PM
Author: zdrastvootya
I think we can expect federal services to be bilingual. My understanding is there''s only one officially bilingual province: New Brunswick.

Not that it helps, but in addition to the Anglo thing I believe there''s a sensitivity in Quebec to ''foreign'' looking people/kids speaking English. The perception being that they would speak English if they weren''t ''forced'' to speak French, ie. they''re not really supporters of French language. (However, as you say the Vietnamese have a history of speaking French.) I''ve heard stories about immigrant school kids getting detentions for speaking their native language at recess.

There''s that Parizeau speech (former premier of Quebec) blaming the immigrant vote for the failed separation referendum.

Z.

ps. does it help to think that the prejudices faced by previous generations and people in other places is probably far worse? (In a way, we''re kind of spoiled. We expect things to be fair People who came before knew that things wouldn''t be.)

pps. my rule is if I do something wrong I apologize. If someone keeps going on about it, I''m not going to apologize 4 times. (In your case, I don''t think you did anything ''wrong''. You just made mistakes. I think acknowledgement rather than apology is all that is required.)

Are you from Québec? Your point is very interesting. Nothing justifies racism, but you''re probably right, and I do remember the Parizeau speech you mention. The recent ''accomodement raisonnable'' for immigrants debacle isn''t helping any either.

I''m born and raised in Ontario, and of Chinese descent. I''ve always found it strange that people subjected to prejudice do the exact same thing when they''re in a position of power. (That''s not saying this occurs in Quebec. Just a general observation.) They think it''s not that prejudice is wrong, it''s wrong that it''s happening to me.

Over here, we have stories about Quebec francophones being nasty to people with Ontario license plates (and presumably English-speaking only), but I''ll always remember being lost in Quebec city (kept unintentionally going across the bridge over the St. Lawrence) and having a gentleman who only spoke French spending a LOT of time with us (enduring our very limited highschool French) trying to explain how to get to where we were going to. I always tell this story when I hear the "Quebecers are mean anglophones" line.

Z.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 5/16/2007 12:09:30 PM
Author: zdrastvootya

I''m born and raised in Ontario, and of Chinese descent. I''ve always found it strange that people subjected to prejudice do the exact same thing when they''re in a position of power. (That''s not saying this occurs in Quebec. Just a general observation.) They think it''s not that prejudice is wrong, it''s wrong that it''s happening to me.

Over here, we have stories about Quebec francophones being nasty to people with Ontario license plates (and presumably English-speaking only), but I''ll always remember being lost in Quebec city (kept unintentionally going across the bridge over the St. Lawrence) and having a gentleman who only spoke French spending a LOT of time with us (enduring our very limited highschool French) trying to explain how to get to where we were going to. I always tell this story when I hear the ''Quebecers are mean anglophones'' line.

Z.

Sorry to highjack your threat, ally, but what an interesting story, zdrastvootya! I know how confusing the bridges can be in Québec city... FI and I have done the same mistake once or twice. But yeah, some anglos are mean to francos and vice versa, but all? Of course not.

 

[allycat0303]

Well I talked to my guy (incidently, he looked over my presentation before I gave it in, he's french-canadian) and he really, really gave me a talking too. Brief story short, he blasted me. He pointed out that I came accross someone that has a race issue and that I apologized to the person 3 times in a conversation that lasted maybe 2 minutes. So in all essence, he feels that I gave away my pride and self respect, he doesn't see it as me having stood up for myself AT ALL.

Zdras: you make so many insightful, important comments, I have a feeling that you really know about the province and what it means to live here. It's funny, because I'm sure you know that in recent months a french newspaper published a poll they had done amoung their readers, and a very high number of Quebec people responded that they considered themselves *racist* (I think it was 60-70%..) in any case, when meeting french people (even before this incident) I've always worried, well, are they going to be a) racist and now b) are they going to hate english people. However, I have honestly run into VERY few incidents. From the Parizeau speech, I expected it to be much worst, but some people just surprise you by how un-prejudice they are. And then some swing so oppositely the other way that it leaves you speechless.

Anchor: Hey honey. I actually thought about writing it as a PAGING ANCHOR thread, because I was frantic over this thing. You know, it sounds like your family is like my guy's family. They love Quebec, but they hate this hate. I have always found Montreal to feel like home, and this has made me feel different. It made me like it a lot less. I talked it over with my guy, and he was telling me that this is why he feels I should take me USMLE exams (most states will accept Canada exam) but some want their exam. I wasn't going to, because I wanted to stay in Quebec, but now I think I should. He told me that this hate is much more widespread then I think and that once I am in the hospital for real, I'm going to feel it a lot more. Part of the reason he has always felt that we should move, he is fed up with this language debate. Thanks for the support, I feel a lot better this morning. Although yesturday I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Rainbow: I know what you mean about french-french not understanding Quebecois french too. The accent slant is so much different. The issue with my speech is my r's. That's how they can tell I'm english. There is a very slight roll to it that appears when I'm really nervous, and it's typically because English people don't pronouce r's from the same part of the throat as french people. You can imagine how many hours I've spent saying rrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[anchor31]

Date: 5/17/2007 6:45:19 AM
Author: allycat0303

Anchor: Hey honey. I actually thought about writing it as a PAGING ANCHOR thread, because I was frantic over this thing. You know, it sounds like your family is like my guy''s family. They love Quebec, but they hate this hate. I have always found Montreal to feel like home, and this has made me feel different. It made me like it a lot less. I talked it over with my guy, and he was telling me that this is why he feels I should take me USMLE exams (most states will accept Canada exam) but some want their exam. I wasn''t going to, because I wanted to stay in Quebec, but now I think I should. He told me that this hate is much more widespread then I think and that once I am in the hospital for real, I''m going to feel it a lot more. Part of the reason he has always felt that we should move, he is fed up with this language debate. Thanks for the support, I feel a lot better this morning. Although yesturday I couldn''t stop thinking about it.

Do you have me e-mail address? I think I still have yours, I could e-mail you if you like.

I hate the whole conflict and debate, but since I''m Quebecoise I usually manage to stay out of it. Personally I couldn''t imagine leaving permanently, it''s home and everyone I know is here, although J and I have talked about the possibility because of his work. But you''re the only one who can judge if you''ll be happy here or somewhere else.

I was partly surprised by the newspaper poll results you mention, and part of me wasn''t at all. I believe everyone has their prejudices... And the fact that the poll happened at the same time then the "accomodement raisonnable" debacle (surely you''ve heard of it) didn''t help any.

Keeping you in my thoughts!

 

[zdrastvootya]

Ally, thanks for the compliments.

Since you''re the thread-starter and you don''t seem to mind the topic wandering a bit, I have to ask:

what is the accomodement raisonable? Anchor? It sounds like something I should at least know about.

Related to prejudice, my mind is wandering to native/aboriginal issues in Quebec. Of course there''s prejudice for aboriginals (in varying degrees) everywhere in Canada, but I''m under the impression that Quebec is particularly tight-fisted on native land claims? Again, seems to be one of those "you''re not one of us" issues.

Z.

Date: 5/17/2007 8:28:53 AM
Author: anchor31

Date: 5/17/2007 6:45:19 AM
Author: allycat0303

Anchor: Hey honey. I actually thought about writing it as a PAGING ANCHOR thread, because I was frantic over this thing. You know, it sounds like your family is like my guy''s family. They love Quebec, but they hate this hate. I have always found Montreal to feel like home, and this has made me feel different. It made me like it a lot less. I talked it over with my guy, and he was telling me that this is why he feels I should take me USMLE exams (most states will accept Canada exam) but some want their exam. I wasn''t going to, because I wanted to stay in Quebec, but now I think I should. He told me that this hate is much more widespread then I think and that once I am in the hospital for real, I''m going to feel it a lot more. Part of the reason he has always felt that we should move, he is fed up with this language debate. Thanks for the support, I feel a lot better this morning. Although yesturday I couldn''t stop thinking about it.

Do you have me e-mail address? I think I still have yours, I could e-mail you if you like.

I hate the whole conflict and debate, but since I''m Quebecoise I usually manage to stay out of it. Personally I couldn''t imagine leaving permanently, it''s home and everyone I know is here, although J and I have talked about the possibility because of his work. But you''re the only one who can judge if you''ll be happy here or somewhere else.

I was partly surprised by the newspaper poll results you mention, and part of me wasn''t at all. I believe everyone has their prejudices... And the fact that the poll happened at the same time then the ''accomodement raisonnable'' debacle (surely you''ve heard of it) didn''t help any.

Keeping you in my thoughts!

 

[anchor31]

Date: 5/17/2007 1:52:10 PM
Author: zdrastvootya
Ally, thanks for the compliments.

Since you''re the thread-starter and you don''t seem to mind the topic wandering a bit, I have to ask:

what is the accomodement raisonable? Anchor? It sounds like something I should at least know about.

Related to prejudice, my mind is wandering to native/aboriginal issues in Quebec. Of course there''s prejudice for aboriginals (in varying degrees) everywhere in Canada, but I''m under the impression that Quebec is particularly tight-fisted on native land claims? Again, seems to be one of those ''you''re not one of us'' issues.

Z.

Oh my... Where to start... I''m not sure how to translate "accomodement raisonnable"... It''s a euphemism used a bit in the same context as "politically correct". You know how we Canadians are polite, right?

I agree with freedom of culture and religion, and yes, people should be allowed to practice the religion they want, etc. But... well, sometimes it can go too far when people of different cultures/religions/whatever demand to be "accomodated".

It happened in Montreal this year. A group of people of a culture and religion where starting to making ridiculous demands. First, they asked that the windows of a YWCA be frosted to people on the street could not see woman in training clothes in the gym. And then some more ambitious people of the same group started demanding that (get this) female police officers to not reprimand or even approach the men!

There probably were other things I didn''t hear about, but you get the idea.

Montrealers and Quebecers in general were very affected by this controversy. We (and I say we because I freely admit that I felt this way as well) felt insulted and slighted in our identity. People of different cultures are welcome here, and they can live as they see fit. We don''t force them to wear what we wear and eat what we eat. But why should we change our ways for them, I wonder?

So, yeah. It''s a sensitive time right now. And then the media, of course, had to do a survey during that time (

) in Montreal. So of course the results were shocking. But accurate? I''m not convinced.

Had this kind of thing happened to you before, ally?

 

[allycat0303]

zdrastvootya: You have always struck me as being very culturally and politically aware of what is happening in Canada. As Anchor, basically how far must Quebec and Montreal go in terms of accommodating the demands of different ethnic groups. When is the accommodation reasonable, and when has the province gone too far to make people happy. The two specific issues have ignited a HUGE controversy in Quebec, and hotly debated.

My parents are immigrants too, but some of the demands do seem unreasonable to me too. So when the newspaper ran the poll, it came at a very hot- button time, which gave negative results. I think immigrants should be welcome here, but equal respect must be given from both sides. So I think that immigrants should remember that we are guests, should be treated as such, but not to abuse our hosts either.

I actually talked to my Quebecois classmates today, a really open and frank discussion. And they said that while they can''t say that they ''''hate english people'''' they did say that they don''t feel that english and french people have anything in common (and that they would pick a native Quebecer over an english-speaking candidate), and that we are in essence taking up places in the medical class that should go to french-speaking students. Which is their right. Although I was born and raised here, and my parents pay the same taxes that their parents do to fund these universities....so hard to swallow. They also hate hearing english on the streets of Montreal, they very much feel everyone should be speaking french. Eye-opening, and I think furthur showing me how far the gap is.

Anchor: This is the first time this has happened to me, and it''s been a shock. The past few days I feel like this isn''t home anymore, something I''ve never felt before. Most of my life here has been without prejudice of any kind, so I''m having a hard time with it, and talking to my classmates today it made me really sad. It also makes me wonder how much I am accepted here, as someone that is asian and someone that is english-speaking. It seems that the divide is much furthur then I thought. Honestly, I hope I come to terms with it soon, because it''s on my mind a lot. Thanks for the advice and support, you''ve been a totally rock solid sounding board.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 5/17/2007 6:29:33 PM
Author: allycat0303

My parents are immigrants too, but some of the demands do seem unreasonable to me too. So when the newspaper ran the poll, it came at a very hot- button time, which gave negative results. I think immigrants should be welcome here, but equal respect must be given from both sides. So I think that immigrants should remember that we are guests, should be treated as such, but not to abuse our hosts either.

This is exactly how I see it.

Date: 5/17/2007 6:29:33 PM
Author: allycat0303
I actually talked to my Quebecois classmates today, a really open and frank discussion. And they said that while they can''t say that they ''hate english people'' they did say that they don''t feel that english and french people have anything in common (and that they would pick a native Quebecer over an english-speaking candidate), and that we are in essence taking up places in the medical class that should go to french-speaking students. Which is their right. Although I was born and raised here, and my parents pay the same taxes that their parents do to fund these universities....so hard to swallow. They also hate hearing english on the streets of Montreal, they very much feel everyone should be speaking french. Eye-opening, and I think furthur showing me how far the gap is.

Ok, now I''m shocked. I know some people are intolerant, but the majority? Maybe I''m just naive, but it just doesn''t seem right to me. What does it matter if they speak French or English? What skin colour that have? Where they come from? What difference does it make?! And as you say, your parents pay the same taxes, follow the same laws... It''s not like you have some kind of special privilege and are stepping all over us. And hearing English on the street... Come on, this is North America. We are surrounded by English... One has to be pretty naive to think they won''t hear the language around them.

I''m appalled and disgusted by my own people''s pettiness and narrow-mindedness. Maybe UdM wasn''t the best place to ask though... Rest assured that we are not all like that.

Date: 5/17/2007 6:29:33 PM
Author: allycat0303
Anchor: This is the first time this has happened to me, and it''s been a shock. The past few days I feel like this isn''t home anymore, something I''ve never felt before. Most of my life here has been without prejudice of any kind, so I''m having a hard time with it, and talking to my classmates today it made me really sad. It also makes me wonder how much I am accepted here, as someone that is asian and someone that is english-speaking. It seems that the divide is much furthur then I thought. Honestly, I hope I come to terms with it soon, because it''s on my mind a lot. Thanks for the advice and support, you''ve been a totally rock solid sounding board.

Some people do accept you, I''m sure of that. Your man does, and I do. We''re not alone either. Just email me if you need anything. *big hugs*

 

[hlmr]

Date: 5/17/2007 6:29:33 PM
Author: allycat0303
Anchor: This is the first time this has happened to me, and it's been a shock. The past few days I feel like this isn't home anymore, something I've never felt before. Most of my life here has been without prejudice of any kind, so I'm having a hard time with it, and talking to my classmates today it made me really sad. It also makes me wonder how much I am accepted here, as someone that is asian and someone that is english-speaking. It seems that the divide is much furthur then I thought. Honestly, I hope I come to terms with it soon, because it's on my mind a lot. Thanks for the advice and support, you've been a totally rock solid sounding board.

Some people do accept you, I'm sure of that. Your man does, and I do. We're not alone either. Just email me if you need anything. *big hugs*

Canada is the most multi-cultural country in the world, yet the seperatist sentiment is still so prevalent in the francophone youth of today...it is very sad. Please don't feel like it is not home for you anymore, or that you don't belong Ally.....unfortunately, you will come across many more of these situations in your life and like anything, the first time is always the hardest. Listen to what is being said but don't take it too personally or to heart. Easier said than done I know, but you are strong and you'll get through this.

 

[zdrastvootya]

Thanks everyone, for your insights. Good to hear opiniions from folks in the QC (isn''t that a tv show?). Our American friends must be falling asleep by now! Ally, I think you''re identifying symptoms of a few things. The "siege" mentaility of a french-speaking minority surrounded by an english-speaking majority. The kicker is that the minority is the majority in that province.

I met 2 Montreal girls on vacation and learned a few things. They were very friendly, and their English was quite good. One thing I found weird was they were translating their names into English. Marie introduced herself as "Mary" and her friend as "Josie" rather than Josee (ack, where''s my accent). It struck me that they didn''t really encounter anglophone Canadians that much, or they would know that they didn''t have to translate their names.

I think that was an indication of "the divide". Marie also told me, she''d never been to Toronto or anywhere in Ontario. She mentioned that her and her friends have encontered fairly often that servers in downtown Montreal restaurants don''t speak French. I don''t think she was angry about it, but more disappointed. I think Montreal is quite bilingual which is great, but still a divided city where there are "islands" of English-speaking.

Anchor, cultural/religiious accommodation is a hot topic for me right now. I picture myself (like a lot of Canadians, I suppose) as polite, tolerant, etc., but now we''re meeting the challenge of orthodox religions/cultures that have taboos/customs outside our secular society. I used to make jokes about someone who seemed inherently rude, and say "it''s a cultural thing", but in truth coming from a different culture doesn''t excuse it. I''m thinking now, if you don''t believe in Canadian core principles (like equality of women), maybe you shouldn''t come here. (Something I''d never thought I''d say - sounds very bigoted.) I''m wondering if this is a condition of citizenship? If so, I understand people give it lip service, but maybe we need to emphasize it more in immigration policy. (Of course there are people born here who don''t believe in these values, but we can''t kick them out

I note that in QC folks are willing to take a stand on the issue, because it''s inherent over there to protect French culture. Over here in Ontario, we''re not so used to this position and have been wimpy in dealing with the issue.

Z.