Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Homophobia isn't only in straight people

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,180
Since my earliest childhood I've suffered terribly from self loathing for being gay.
It's not conscious; it's deep in the subconscious.

I'm not alone.
Yes, some social progress has been made, and therapy has helped me tremendously.
But stigma against being gay is still alive and well, especially in the Bible Belt.

PS is a very LBGT-supportive environment.
Still, I'd like to ask you to read this BBC article about internalized homophobia ... even if you know you are not homophobic.
This is about what gays do to themselves.
I'm not sure how much the general population knows about this.

Please share it with those you know.
Thanks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36534693
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,123
It's a very good article, kenny. It explains in laymen's terms the dynamics of how an attraction to someone of the same sex can be turned into a need to fight very hard against that impulse and anything that might be associated with that impulse. Of course in most people it does not lead to mass murder, but many men who bully or disparage gay men are actually battling their own homosexual impulses.

AGBF
 

House Cat

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
4,006
((((((hugs)))))))) Kenny.


I know what it is like to reject a very big part of one's self on a subconscious level... It is very difficult when society stigmatizes something that is a very big part of you. How can you NOT feel inherently wrong, bad, awful, defective?

Especially when society tells you their God rejects you... that is terrible shit. A terrible shit lie as far as I am concerned.


I have been avoiding the news of this shooting. What little I do know is this... I love that his guy is going down in history as the homophobic terrorist. That is the exact opposite of anything he wanted, I am sure. This irony helps my heart a little...just a tiny bit.


I have said this a bunch of times, the millennials and the younger generation will not tolerate the hate! I know I am in California and I am seeing a bias, but my kids don't really see homosexual. They see two people who love one another. My 11 year old came to me and told me someone on the playground called him "gay" at school and then said, "he thinks that's an insult." Do you see?

Hopefully, once the hateful generation dies off, the people of the LGBT community won't hate themselves either.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,180
Yes Deb, I do not want to come across as blaming the deaths of 49 people on internalized homophobia or implying every gay guy is shopping for an automatic weapon.

Actually, I don't want to relate this thread to the tragedy in Orlando at all.

Unfortunately it took a huge event like this for a leading news org to give this topic the attention it deserves.
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
Kenny,
Thanks for posting this article. I can only talk about my experience as my brother was gay and died of AIDS. I know he struggled. My parents were not supportive. I know my god son struggled in accepting his sexuality... I have seen many that have such self loathing and without support they see no way to go forward and many take their own lives.

I was lucky in that I took a course to teach my parents that it wasn't their fault. He was born that way. My brother was very thankful that I could take that burden and teach awareness... But alas this was 93 and the climate was full of shame and hatred.


It's getting better but kids are still taking their lives and see no way out.

It's very sad and I pray each day that there is more acceptance and understanding and empathy for those that face such a hard way to go.
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
Kenny,
I forgot to give you big big hugs!! I am so sorry for all that you suffered. It's such a hard road that many really don't know nor understand So kudos to you to open up this dialogue!!!
 

CJ2008

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Messages
4,750
I'll definitely take the time to read it kenny.

Do you like yourself a little bit better now? has it gotten better over the years or is it something you constantly have to work on?
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,123
kenny|1466102428|4044820 said:
Unfortunately it took a huge event like this for a leading news org to give this topic the attention it deserves.
I could not agree more, but no one likes a Freudian! No one! We are among the people who are probably on the list to be sent to detention camps first, before the liberals and any hated ethnic group!

I am joking, of course. I realize that some people are actually the objects of serious discrimination in the United States. But most people say that they reject the ideas of Freud nowadays, without realizing how many of his ideas have become our mainstream ideas. The very notion of an unconscious or subconscious, which we use so casually, is Freud's idea.

Until Freud, people did not realize that there was any hidden life, any life beneath the conscious. They didn't know that there were clues to their desires in their dreams. He knew that a great deal of progress had to be made scientifically in the future and he kept revising his own ideas during his lifetime, but he made some breakthroughs that affected the way all of us think.

AGBF
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
10,498
Big HUGS to you, Kenny! I know what it's like to experience deep self-loathing, although not for the same reasons as you. I hate that this is even an issue in this day and age, and that homophobia exists on any level. I know we are making progress--but progress is too slow for my liking! I hope that with therapy and talking through these issues you are feeling better and more at peace with who you are. I know it's a long-term struggle and we are here for you!
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,123
This piece from, "The New York Times" describes an article published in the April 2012, "Journal of Personality and Social Psychology".

"WHY are political and religious figures who campaign against gay rights so often implicated in sexual encounters with same-sex partners?

In recent years, Ted Haggard, an evangelical leader who preached that homosexuality was a sin, resigned after a scandal involving a former male prostitute; Larry Craig, a United States senator who opposed including sexual orientation in hate-crime legislation, was arrested on suspicion of lewd conduct in a men’s bathroom; and Glenn Murphy Jr., a leader of the Young Republican National Convention and an opponent of same-sex marriage, pleaded guilty to a lesser charge after being accused of sexually assaulting another man.

One theory is that homosexual urges, when repressed out of shame or fear, can be expressed as homophobia. Freud famously called this process a 'reaction formation' — the angry battle against the outward symbol of feelings that are inwardly being stifled. Even Mr. Haggard seemed to endorse this idea when, apologizing after his scandal for his anti-gay rhetoric, he said, 'I think I was partially so vehement because of my own war.'

It’s a compelling theory — and now there is scientific reason to believe it. In this month’s issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, we and our fellow researchers provide empirical evidence that homophobia can result, at least in part, from the suppression of same-sex desire."

The researchers constructed a method for testing people for how attracted they were to the same same sex. It is described in the article.

"Using this methodology we identified a subgroup of participants who, despite self-identifying as highly straight, indicated some level of same-sex attraction (that is, they associated 'me' with gay-related words and pictures faster than they associated 'me' with straight-related words and pictures). Over 20 percent of self-described highly straight individuals showed this discrepancy.

Notably, these 'discrepant' individuals were also significantly more likely than other participants to favor anti-gay policies; to be willing to assign significantly harsher punishments to perpetrators of petty crimes if they were presumed to be homosexual; and to express greater implicit hostility toward gay subjects (also measured with the help of subliminal priming). Thus our research suggests that some who oppose homosexuality do tacitly harbor same-sex attraction.

What leads to this repression? We found that participants who reported having supportive and accepting parents were more in touch with their implicit sexual orientation and less susceptible to homophobia. Individuals whose sexual identity was at odds with their implicit sexual attraction were much more frequently raised by parents perceived to be controlling, less accepting and more prejudiced against homosexuals." (italics mine)

Link...http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/homophobic-maybe-youre-gay.html

AGBF
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,180
Thanks for all the hugs and good wishes.
The thread is not supposed to be about me, but I'm fine.

I'm totally out, (essential to our mental health IMO) but 'not in your face' so to speak.
I don't bring up being gay to new people, as it's not relevant to anything.
More and more, nobody cares ... how it should be.

But if they bring up their family/personal life I then feel free to talk similarly about my SO.
I won't bring it up as a thing, as in 'I'm gay. Look at MEEEE!"
Being gay is not a thing any more than having brown hair is a thing.
I might say, "Oh, last weekend my partner and I went to a concert. He loves that new singer so-and-so."

While not currently in therapy, I'd love to go back some day.
I'm sure there are still some yuckies down in there I could flesh out and flush out.
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
Just so glad you opened up a dialogue. You never know who reads this and can be helped by it. Which to me is sooooo key as many don't have someone safe to talk to and it's key letting people know the dynamics that you and all that are gay go through.....

Glad to know you are ok. I think this thread will do a lot of good!!!
 

jordyonbass

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
1,809
You really aren't alone with that at all Kenny, one of my childhood friends came out to me when he was 17 and at the same time he revealed that self-loathing was also something he was battling with. He told me that he wished he wasn't gay as his father (being ex-navy and a very 'macho' kinda bloke) was going to disown him. Which he basically did when he found out.
For me as a friend and being quite young at the time, I could do nothing but say to him the fact he is gay did nothing to change our 10 years of friendship. But just being a friend does nothing to help; I couldn't offer him a room as I was still living with my dad, all I could do was make sure he knew I was still a friend.

I know he battled with it for a long time as well as he developed attraction to some of the guys in our group of mates up until only a few years ago. While we were all cool and understood, we know he was annoyed at himself as he didn't want to be attracted to his mates and began to distance himself. Nowadays he seems happy as he has a partner but we haven't spoken in a long time.

It was hard to watch as a friend though because none of us were doing this to him, a lot of it was him doing it to himself (obviously with the exception of his father disowning him).
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,123
Kaleigh|1466108357|4044850 said:
Just so glad you opened up a dialogue. You never know who reads this and can be helped by it.
I think this is right on the money, Kaleigh. And when I saw you post to this thread, I instantly flashed to your brother. I know that you lived with this issue up close and personal. When your brother was alive, even though it was not that long ago, it was a different era. Things have changed so quickly in the LGBT rights area. (Although not quickly enough.)

I agree that the thread will be helpful. I bolded (italicized) the words that I did from, "The New York Times" article that I quoted above because i thought that it, also, made a helpful point. A point to which parents and families and, indeed, entire communities, should listen. I wanted to help people to realize that the people who were attracted to the same sex but whose parents were not disapproving tended to be accepting of it and that only those whose parents were controlling and not supportive tended to be homophobic themselves.

Maybe we should look at our parenting.

AGBF
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
Thank you Deb!! I think the one thing I learned was embracing your child.. My brother was never loved, accepted and my god he won the record for getting out of a straight jacket by Houdini..He was talented from day one and I am glad I didn't have glasses that ignored that he was a special person, that feels like me, bleeds like me and hurts like me. He was six years older but I some how was always his protector. Now that Ash is getting married, I really miss him. He was my mirror and he adored my daughter to the end..
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
6,867
Seeing internalized homophobia in action is utterly sad, painful beyond measure; its effects on a human soul wrenching and unbearable.

Last summer, on a visit to my hometown, my hubs, cousin and I were walking through a park on the way to the Andy Warhol Museum when a cute pooch ran over to me, dropped his ball at my feet, and cast his liquid brown eyes upward in a plea for play. As I complied, along came pooch's owner who immediately launched into his story of redemption from drugs and suicide attempts through the power of the lord jesus christ. I wished him well and skedaddled.

After a long day of sightseeing, we called for an Uber driver and it turned out to be the man we met in the park. As he drove us to our destination, he went into depth about his life, his descent into drug use, his self-loathing, and christ-induced redemption. I knew he was gay. My instincts about people rarely fail me and I suspected his attempts at self-destruction and embrace of religion was rooted in large part to the alienation he experienced from friends and family to which he alluded earlier on. His speech consisted mainly of quoting scripture. He had memorized the entire bible. During our vigorous discussion about religion and intolerance, I challenged him to give me responses that weren't memorized bible verses. He could not. I accused him of being thoroughly brainwashed to the point where he could no longer think for himself and said the conversation was over if he could not represent himself in his own words. He was quiet for a few miles.

Then he said "I was gay and through the power of jesus christ, I'm no longer gay and I'm looking for a nice girl to marry." My poor hubs and cousin, who knew that my tipping point had been totally tipped, sucked in their breath so hard the car felt like a vacuum. Hubs started muttering "easy Deborah, easy" when he saw my head snap around so fast to look at the driver that I think it actually made a noise.

I asked him if he believed god was perfect. He said "yes." I asked him if god made mistakes. He said "no." I asked him if god created him. He said "yes." I asked him if a perfect god who makes no mistakes created you, why are you denying who you are? Are you not denying god by denying his perfect creation?

Then I asked him if god abided liars. He said "no." I asked, how can you lie to a woman you will ask to share your life? How on earth can you think it's godly to enter a relationship with another that is based on a lie. And what burden would you bear should that lie come to light and two hearts broken.

I told him I loved him as a fellow human, respected his long agonizing fight to regain his physical health, was proud to know him and honored that he had shared his story. He was silent the rest of the trip. When I tried to get out of the car at our destination, he grabbed me in a bear hug and we sat there and cried all over each other for what seemed like hours. Then I kissed him on his cheek, wished him peace and happiness and that was that.

I can't forget him -- the conflict in his voice, the conflict in his eyes, the fear and uncertainty even though he held that bible close as a shield, the self-loathing mixed with a desperate need for self-love. To be eaten alive from within.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,531
One of my best friends at school was a gay guy, I and my family knew he was gay growing up and he didn't come out to his mother until he was nearly 40. She confronted my mother in the street and demanded to know if she knew and why she didn't tell her and my mother said yes she always knew and explained it wasn't her place to tell her and that probably the reason she knew was because it was never an issue to her.

My current best friend has just divorced an angry unpleasant Russian guy, they have 5 youngish kids together and culturally his family would never approve of him being gay but we and lots of other people all strongly suspect he is, so your article really resonated when thinking about him. I think it would be difficult not to internalized homophobia if you are forced to grow up in a culture/society where being gay is not only somehow shameful it is forbidden. Her ex reminds me a lot of the shooter actually he has this internalised rage which he outwardly projects all the time, and if you didn't know specifics about his personal life, it would be difficult to see where it came from.....
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
34,031
Kenny, thank you for starting this thread and opening an important discussion and I am sharing the article. My heart goes out to you. Big (((HUGS))).

Matata, a heartbreaking story and you just might have changed that man's life for the better. You are a remarkable woman.


Deb, thank you for sharing that article from the NYT.
We found that participants who reported having supportive and accepting parents were more in touch with their implicit sexual orientation and less susceptible to homophobia. Individuals whose sexual identity was at odds with their implicit sexual attraction were much more frequently raised by parents perceived to be controlling, less accepting and more prejudiced against homosexuals.
As with almost everything it does begin at home and with having or not having a loving supportive family. Human beings do so much damage not just to animals but to themselves and their children. We are our very worst enemies. :cry:

Sending love and hugs to everyone dealing with these challenges and inner struggles. Wishing you peace and contentment.
 

Puppmom

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
3,160
Wow, Kenny. Very eye opening. My 17 year old nephew is transgender. He is on medication to stop further male development (although, when he started at 16 he was pretty deep in puberty). Only some of us know he is transitioning to female. He is concerned that the news that he's female will literally kill his grandparents and has considered waiting until they die to "come out" fully. He has struggled with self harm for years. He's a brilliant child (literally, brilliant) but has very little self worth. I hope that changes.

When my sister told my brother in law that his child was transgender, he first threatened to leave the family (not the first time). But then he said something that may cut even deeper than hate. He said he can't be transgender because THAT DOESN'T EXIST. Can you imagine? Finally coming to terms with who you are only to be told by your own father that who you are is not REAL; it's a made up idea? I could go on and on about what a POS my brother in law is but I can't think of much worse to say about someone.
 

LLJsmom

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
9,265
puppmom|1466171266|4045125 said:
Wow, Kenny. Very eye opening. My 17 year old nephew is transgender. He is on medication to stop further male development (although, when he started at 16 he was pretty deep in puberty). Only some of us know he is transitioning to female. He is concerned that the news that he's female will literally kill his grandparents and has considered waiting until they die to "come out" fully. He has struggled with self harm for years. He's a brilliant child (literally, brilliant) but has very little self worth. I hope that changes.

When my sister told my brother in law that his child was transgender, he first threatened to leave the family (not the first time). But then he said something that may cut even deeper than hate. He said he can't be transgender because THAT DOESN'T EXIST. Can you imagine? Finally coming to terms with who you are only to be told by your own father that who you are is not REAL; it's a made up idea? I could go on and on about what a POS my brother in law is but I can't think of much worse to say about someone.
heartbreaking... and from your own father too... :nono:
 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    June’s Birthstone Trinity
    June’s Birthstone Trinity

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top