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HoF outshines unbranded H&A

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LovesKatie

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I had the chance the other day to compare an unbranded H&A diamond to some Hearts on Fire stones, and the HoF diamonds won handily. NOW what do I do?

Thanks to you kind, helpful souls, I decided a while back that my Katie deserves the very best cut diamond I can find for her e-ring. I''ve decided it''s to be a hearts and arrows round, as large as I can manage, eye clean, and color likely I or below.

ANYWAY, I''ve been looking at James Allen, GOG, Infinity and Whiteflash, and Blue Nile as well. I found a stone on BN that looked like a bargain. It''s a .833 ct., VS2, J, AGS0 with an HCA score of 1.7 (TIC) and H&A inscribed on the girdle along with the AGSL number. Here it is:

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-ideal-cut-j-color-vs2-clarity_LD01335381

Depth %: 62.1%
Table %: 53%
Symmetry: Ideal
Polish: Ideal
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet: Pointed
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.04 x 6.11 x 3.76 mm
Lgf 79


I took a chance and bought it. It''s an awfully pretty stone, just lovely, really, though I don''t have anything to compare it to before now. I''ve just never had the chance to play with and study a diamond before. Wanting the best, though, and knowing my ignorance, I tracked down a HoF dealer and took the stone there to compare it to the "best." I''d never seen a HoF diamond. WOW! So beautiful. Prettiest little things EVER! And decidedly prettier than "my" stone.

I looked at theirs and mine in the H&A viewer, and they were comparable. The hearts and arrows were just as pretty and well formed on mine. A couple of teeny clefts on the hearts on mine, but on theirs, too. All the hearts the same size, both halves of each the same length, the top lobes squared off. The Vs in the center of the stone seemed to be a tiny bit different from heart to heart, but that also seemed to change depending on how I moved my head. Mine really did look just as good in the viewer, to my untrained but Pricescoped mind.

Seeing the HoF stones, I can''t possibly give my girl anything less beautiful. The Blue Nile stone is going back.

So why were the HoF stones so much prettier? On paper, the only "lesser" quality of my stone is the color. But I didn''t even notice a color difference. The other stones were just flashier, fierier, sparklier, just prettier! Why?

Granted, I only compared the stones in the $$$$ store display lights, but so what? Do different H&A stones really have that much difference in "personality," or do you think this could have been some difference in quality that I just don''t know enough to spot?

I guess the reason I want to know is that I can''t afford a HoF stone as large as I want for my honey. So I''m thinking Whiteflash ACA. I know everyone here says they''re just as lovely, and a no-brainer when money''s a part of the decision. But do they look substantially the same, in the same light, as HoF, or do they have different "personalities"?

Help!!!
 

diamondseeker2006

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You are better off getting a true H&A stone from WhiteFlash or Good Old Gold. Blue Nile doesn''t provide IS images, so you have no idea id the stone is really H&A. I can tell you with certainly that you CAN get the same quality as HoF for less money. I''ve seen HoF, and I have stones from both GOG and WF, and I will tell you that they are absolutely equivalent. No way would I even consider HoF unless I just had millions and didn''t care how much the stones cost.
 

stone-cold11

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An stone inscribed with H&A does not mean it is a H&A and a H&A does not automatically means that it will perform well optically. So best you compared the HOF with a branded cut from GOG, WF or HPD.
 

LovesKatie

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Thanks, diamondseeker2006 and stonecold. I knew that anyone could have anything inscribed on the girdle. I knew I was taking a gamble buying the Blue Nile stone, with no photos or H&A, ASET or IS images. But it did indeed turn out to be a true H&A stone. It just wasn''t as pretty as the HoF! So I''m sure I''ll be taking your advice when I buy again -- I''m just now kind of curious about why one AGS0 H&A stone, with what should be a top HCA score, isn''t as pretty as another one.
 

swingirl

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BlueNile has a nice return policy so you have time to evaluate your stone in person since they don''t offer ASETs, photos or idealscopes. I haven''t compared many of them but I am guessing branded stones are more expensive for a reason, they are cut better and will outshine some AGS0''s.

Maybe someone will chime in about HoF stones and how other branded stones compare.

What is your budget?
 

LovesKatie

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Thanks, swingirl! The BN return policy was the reason for taking the gamble on that stone! I''ve got an RMA number, just need to get to the post office. But what if I''d gotten lucky! If that stone HAD been as pretty as the HoF, then a .83ct VS2 J for $2028.25 (with Discover Card 5% discount) would have been a DEAL! Sadly...

My budget? I don''t know!!! I want to pay cash, and I''ve got a couple thousand stashed away. A comparably sized WF ACA stone is going to be anywhere from $2,000-$3,000 without the setting. I guess I''m ok with $3,000 or so, total, maybe a bit more. I''ve been looking at simple settings, so that helps.

Also, though, since I bought the BN stone and decided against it, I''ve been thinking about waiting, even though I want the ring NOW! It''s going to be summertime before I NEED it, so I have a little while to shop and to save more cash, and diamond prices seem to be declining slightly.
 

risingsun

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I had a 1.23ct WF ACA diamond, which was absolutely beautiful and can recommend them without hesitation. When I upgraded, my local jeweler took my ACA in trade for a 1.62ct HOF. I love this stone. It is stunning, if I do say so myself
2.gif
Both diamonds are top quality stones. After wearing each of them for an extended period of time, I do see some differences, but they are difficult to describe. Both are winners in their own way. You can''t get it wrong by choosing either one
1.gif
 

heb1976

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What color was the HOF stone you were looking at? I ask because I have a GIA Ex/Ex G stone that I purchased last year after looking at many, many diamonds and it has the angle combo that I love and when I compare it to G HOF's I cannot tell a bit of difference in performance. Could it be that you are color sensitive and that is why you are not finding the BN diamond as beautiful? I had the same problem when looking at anything lower than a G and realized that I was just very color sensitive.

(edited for spelling)
 

heb1976

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"So why were the HoF stones so much prettier? On paper, the only "lesser" quality of my stone is the color. But I didn''t even notice a color difference. The other stones were just flashier, fierier, sparklier, just prettier! Why?"

Okay, I reread your post and somehow missed this part. This is exactly how I feel when I compare anything H and lower. They just don''t seem as crisp to me. I think you may be color sensitive. Also did you clean your diamond really well? The jewelry store I go to have the HOF on a special holder so they are not touched and therefore not smeared and dirty. That can also make a huge difference.
 

Imdanny

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Date: 4/16/2009 1:54:50 AM
Author: swingirl
Here are a few that might interest you. The first 2 are k in color. Might be too low for you but it gets you 0.8ct.
Beautifully cut, aren''t they? Good find.
 

Ellen

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Date: 4/15/2009 8:33:15 PM
Author:LovesKatie

I took a chance and bought it. It's an awfully pretty stone, just lovely, really, though I don't have anything to compare it to before now. I've just never had the chance to play with and study a diamond before. Wanting the best, though, and knowing my ignorance, I tracked down a HoF dealer and took the stone there to compare it to the 'best.' I'd never seen a HoF diamond. WOW! So beautiful. Prettiest little things EVER! And decidedly prettier than 'my' stone.
One thought came to mind, after reading this. Did you handle the stone much with your bare hands? And if so, did you clean it afterwards? Diamonds are an absolute high powered magnet for grease and dirt, even if one doesn't actually touch them, But if you handled it much without cleaning, that "could" have been part of the problem. Once the diamond starts getting dirty, it will decrease performance. Anyway, just a thought I had.

Also, you're right, diamonds do have "personalities", and some are better than others.
 

arjunajane

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I don''t think you are comparing apples to apples, for the various reasons mentioned above - plus I imagine you have only seen the HOF
in bright store lighting?
I would not call BN''s stones true H&A usually.
 

whitby_2773

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hi LovesKatie :)

for my money, your stone is also a tad deep at 62.1%. i try to keep my stones with a depth no deeper than 61.7 and as close to 61.2 as i can get. this is my personal taste, but i feel it gives the stone a lighter look. i also prefer a table around 55-57%, but as ellen said, all stones have their own personality and will look different to each other, so best to compare a few in person if you can. you''ll also need to take crown and pavillion angles into consideration, but all your whiteflash stones, for example, will come with that information and you can talk to the experts there to have them confirm that you''re within the ranges to give you the best sparkle. the pavilion angle on your BN stone looks good, but it might be possible to get a slightly better crown angle (something below 35deg, which is probably the outside range of what you want.) BN stones come with those stats, but the benefit of someone like WF is that they can talk you through the process, explain exactly what you’re looking for, and give you extra info when it comes to light performance etc. you did the right thing, using BN’s 30 day period to check out your stone in greater detail and if you can find a more competitive stone, financially speaking, you can always repeat the BN process armed with slightly more info.

but – having said all that - i tend to agree with some other posters here also on color. i''m color sensitive and if you''re looking at a prong set solitaire, i''d be looking whiter than a J. again, this is personal preference - but that''s mine. i do have warmer colored stones, but i set them differently - either in bezel settings or in yellow gold.

good luck, and I hope you find a beauty for your katie! :)
 

Lorelei

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Date: 4/15/2009 8:56:24 PM
Author: LovesKatie
Thanks, diamondseeker2006 and stonecold. I knew that anyone could have anything inscribed on the girdle. I knew I was taking a gamble buying the Blue Nile stone, with no photos or H&A, ASET or IS images. But it did indeed turn out to be a true H&A stone. It just wasn't as pretty as the HoF! So I'm sure I'll be taking your advice when I buy again -- I'm just now kind of curious about why one AGS0 H&A stone, with what should be a top HCA score, isn't as pretty as another one.
Hi LovesKatie,

The depth of your original diamond is not going to be the problem, it is the angle ranges which could have been. The crown and pavilion 35/ 40.8 combo is getting towards the steep zone where it is possible that the diamond could leak a bit of light and or look a little dark in some lights - even with an AGS0. Idealscope is very useful to show this if available however BN do not provide these. Also Ellen has a point that the diamond could have been dirty. But don't worry, you have a good eye by the sound of it and will find a stunning diamond!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/16/2009 7:26:17 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 4/15/2009 8:33:15 PM
Author:LovesKatie

I took a chance and bought it. It''s an awfully pretty stone, just lovely, really, though I don''t have anything to compare it to before now. I''ve just never had the chance to play with and study a diamond before. Wanting the best, though, and knowing my ignorance, I tracked down a HoF dealer and took the stone there to compare it to the ''best.'' I''d never seen a HoF diamond. WOW! So beautiful. Prettiest little things EVER! And decidedly prettier than ''my'' stone.
One thought came to mind, after reading this. Did you handle the stone much with your bare hands? And if so, did you clean it afterwards? Diamonds are an absolute high powered magnet for grease and dirt, even if one doesn''t actually touch them, But if you handled it much without cleaning, that ''could'' have been part of the problem. Once the diamond starts getting dirty, it will decrease performance. Anyway, just a thought I had.

Also, you''re right, diamonds do have ''personalities'', and some are better than others.
I think Ellen is on the money.
It is very easy even for a nasty salesperson to wipe their nose and rub the table of your stone.
Your stone has a smallish table - that is a preference issue - it may have more fire and scintillation and not be quite as bright as say a stone with a 58-60% table.
Also one lighting type is not good - try under the desks and out of bright lights - near daylight windows etc, but not in direct sunlight
 

Lorelei

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Date: 4/16/2009 8:59:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/16/2009 7:26:17 AM
Author: Ellen


Date: 4/15/2009 8:33:15 PM
Author:LovesKatie

I took a chance and bought it. It''s an awfully pretty stone, just lovely, really, though I don''t have anything to compare it to before now. I''ve just never had the chance to play with and study a diamond before. Wanting the best, though, and knowing my ignorance, I tracked down a HoF dealer and took the stone there to compare it to the ''best.'' I''d never seen a HoF diamond. WOW! So beautiful. Prettiest little things EVER! And decidedly prettier than ''my'' stone.
One thought came to mind, after reading this. Did you handle the stone much with your bare hands? And if so, did you clean it afterwards? Diamonds are an absolute high powered magnet for grease and dirt, even if one doesn''t actually touch them, But if you handled it much without cleaning, that ''could'' have been part of the problem. Once the diamond starts getting dirty, it will decrease performance. Anyway, just a thought I had.

Also, you''re right, diamonds do have ''personalities'', and some are better than others.
I think Ellen is on the money.
It is very easy even for a nasty salesperson to wipe their nose and rub the table of your stone.
Your stone has a smallish table - that is a preference issue - it may have more fire and scintillation and not be quite as bright as say a stone with a 58-60% table.
Also one lighting type is not good - try under the desks and out of bright lights - near daylight windows etc, but not in direct sunlight
LOL!!!!
emotion-41.gif
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 4/16/2009 9:03:55 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 4/16/2009 8:59:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


I think Ellen is on the money.
It is very easy even for a nasty salesperson to wipe their nose and rub the table of your stone.
Your stone has a smallish table - that is a preference issue - it may have more fire and scintillation and not be quite as bright as say a stone with a 58-60% table.
Also one lighting type is not good - try under the desks and out of bright lights - near daylight windows etc, but not in direct sunlight
LOL!!!!
emotion-41.gif
OOPS!!!
I meant to say
Wipe the oily part of the side of nose

LOL
 

Ellen

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Date: 4/16/2009 9:03:55 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 4/16/2009 8:59:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


Date: 4/16/2009 7:26:17 AM
Author: Ellen



Date: 4/15/2009 8:33:15 PM
Author:LovesKatie

I took a chance and bought it. It''s an awfully pretty stone, just lovely, really, though I don''t have anything to compare it to before now. I''ve just never had the chance to play with and study a diamond before. Wanting the best, though, and knowing my ignorance, I tracked down a HoF dealer and took the stone there to compare it to the ''best.'' I''d never seen a HoF diamond. WOW! So beautiful. Prettiest little things EVER! And decidedly prettier than ''my'' stone.
One thought came to mind, after reading this. Did you handle the stone much with your bare hands? And if so, did you clean it afterwards? Diamonds are an absolute high powered magnet for grease and dirt, even if one doesn''t actually touch them, But if you handled it much without cleaning, that ''could'' have been part of the problem. Once the diamond starts getting dirty, it will decrease performance. Anyway, just a thought I had.

Also, you''re right, diamonds do have ''personalities'', and some are better than others.
I think Ellen is on the money.
It is very easy even for a nasty salesperson to wipe their nose and rub the table of your stone.
Your stone has a smallish table - that is a preference issue - it may have more fire and scintillation and not be quite as bright as say a stone with a 58-60% table.
Also one lighting type is not good - try under the desks and out of bright lights - near daylight windows etc, but not in direct sunlight
LOL!!!!
emotion-41.gif
/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif[/img]
9.gif
 

Lorelei

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Premium
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Messages
42,064
Date: 4/16/2009 9:13:06 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/16/2009 9:03:55 AM
Author: Lorelei


Date: 4/16/2009 8:59:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


I think Ellen is on the money.
It is very easy even for a nasty salesperson to wipe their nose and rub the table of your stone.
Your stone has a smallish table - that is a preference issue - it may have more fire and scintillation and not be quite as bright as say a stone with a 58-60% table.
Also one lighting type is not good - try under the desks and out of bright lights - near daylight windows etc, but not in direct sunlight
LOL!!!!
emotion-41.gif
OOPS!!!
I meant to say
Wipe the oily part of the side of nose

LOL
Gah!!!
emotion-41.gif
emotion-41.gif
9.gif
 

whitby_2773

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Date: 4/16/2009 9:00:22 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Oh BTW - there is nothing wrong with the depth % for that table size

yes, agreed. my position, tho, is that i like a larger table, and a slightly shallower depth because of it. or visa versa if you like - the percentages don''t operate independently.

and hallo garry - fellow australian, i believe. :)
 

DiamondFlame

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Feb 7, 2009
Messages
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I've seen HoF stones. They are very bright, even when you cup your hands over them to block out the light source, they still glow like embers. I wd like to think that any top of the range H&A performs similarly. But HOF selling point seems to be 'The HOF diamond is cut under 100x magnification'. Is it possible that HOF cut symmetry is just a tad superior thus minimising light leakage to a much greater extent than non-branded H&As? There's certainly more mathematics to internal reflections/refractions than just crown/pavillion angles and crown height/ table depth.
 

jstarfireb

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Messages
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No expert here, but I highly doubt that HOF diamonds are cut with any better optical symmetry than any other branded superideal, like WF ACA, Isee2, Infinity, etc. Perhaps greater than unbranded cuts though...?
 

Abril

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Apr 1, 2008
Messages
197
After you clean it, give the BN stone another chance in a head-to-head with HoF. There may not be as much difference in beauty as you initially thought.
 

LovesKatie

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Messages
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Date: 4/16/2009 12:20:39 AM
Author: heb1976
''So why were the HoF stones so much prettier? On paper, the only ''lesser'' quality of my stone is the color. But I didn''t even notice a color difference. The other stones were just flashier, fierier, sparklier, just prettier! Why?''

Okay, I reread your post and somehow missed this part. This is exactly how I feel when I compare anything H and lower. They just don''t seem as crisp to me. I think you may be color sensitive. Also did you clean your diamond really well? The jewelry store I go to have the HOF on a special holder so they are not touched and therefore not smeared and dirty. That can also make a huge difference.
I don''t *think* I''m especially color-sensitive. I''m not colorblind, AFAIK, but sometimes I''m "color-ignorant." "What color is that, David?" "Er...I dunno...blue?" "No, David, that''s PURPLE!"

I did detect a tint in "my" stone, especially face-down on white paper in diffused lighting, but not face-up in the store lights. The HOF stones ranged from D to (I think) I, and I didn''t notice the differences in those.

My stone was clean. One of their HOFs was dirty, so when they cleaned it, I asked them to clean mine as well.
 

LovesKatie

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Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
17
Date: 4/16/2009 1:54:50 AM
Author: swingirl
Here are a few that might interest you. The first 2 are k in color. Might be too low for you but it gets you 0.8ct.

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/Whiteflash-ACA-cut-diamond-2097580.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-2097582.htm#

Here is an I.

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/Whiteflash-ACA-cut-diamond-1982395.htm#
Thanks, swingirl! I''ve been looking at that first stone, the ACA K .81, and drooling over the beauties in the "K or lower" thread. I''m not opposed to it, necessarily. Heck, I already tried a J, so why not? But I''m thinking I''ll wait a bit and see if prices keep dropping, and keep putting cash aside. I might be able to afford a larger stone by the time I really NEED it.
 

LovesKatie

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Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
17
Date: 4/16/2009 7:26:17 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 4/15/2009 8:33:15 PM
Author:LovesKatie

I took a chance and bought it. It''s an awfully pretty stone, just lovely, really, though I don''t have anything to compare it to before now. I''ve just never had the chance to play with and study a diamond before. Wanting the best, though, and knowing my ignorance, I tracked down a HoF dealer and took the stone there to compare it to the ''best.'' I''d never seen a HoF diamond. WOW! So beautiful. Prettiest little things EVER! And decidedly prettier than ''my'' stone.
One thought came to mind, after reading this. Did you handle the stone much with your bare hands? And if so, did you clean it afterwards? Diamonds are an absolute high powered magnet for grease and dirt, even if one doesn''t actually touch them, But if you handled it much without cleaning, that ''could'' have been part of the problem. Once the diamond starts getting dirty, it will decrease performance. Anyway, just a thought I had.

Also, you''re right, diamonds do have ''personalities'', and some are better than others.
Thanks, Ellen! I did have them clean the stone. They were cleaning one of the HOF stones anyway, so I asked them to clean "mine" as well.
 

LovesKatie

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Messages
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Date: 4/16/2009 7:43:01 AM
Author: arjunajane
I don''t think you are comparing apples to apples, for the various reasons mentioned above - plus I imagine you have only seen the HOF
in bright store lighting?
I would not call BN''s stones true H&A usually.
Arjunajane, you''re right. I haven''t seen the HOF stones in other light. It was cloudy outside that day, or I would have asked to go outside. I DID cup the stones with my hand, to block the direct store lights. The HOF stones were still prettier!

I don''t think anyone would call a run-of-the-mill BN stone an H&A. But this was an AGS000, with the "H&A" girdle inscription noted on the certificate. (Yes, I know anyone can have anything inscribed.) And in the H&A viewer, it had very good hearts. (Arrows, too, of course.)
 

LovesKatie

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Messages
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Date: 4/16/2009 8:06:31 AM
Author: whitby_2773
hi LovesKatie :)

for my money, your stone is also a tad deep at 62.1%. i try to keep my stones with a depth no deeper than 61.7 and as close to 61.2 as i can get. this is my personal taste, but i feel it gives the stone a lighter look. i also prefer a table around 55-57%, but as ellen said, all stones have their own personality and will look different to each other, so best to compare a few in person if you can. you''ll also need to take crown and pavillion angles into consideration, but all your whiteflash stones, for example, will come with that information and you can talk to the experts there to have them confirm that you''re within the ranges to give you the best sparkle. the pavilion angle on your BN stone looks good, but it might be possible to get a slightly better crown angle (something below 35deg, which is probably the outside range of what you want.) BN stones come with those stats, but the benefit of someone like WF is that they can talk you through the process, explain exactly what you’re looking for, and give you extra info when it comes to light performance etc. you did the right thing, using BN’s 30 day period to check out your stone in greater detail and if you can find a more competitive stone, financially speaking, you can always repeat the BN process armed with slightly more info.

but – having said all that - i tend to agree with some other posters here also on color. i''m color sensitive and if you''re looking at a prong set solitaire, i''d be looking whiter than a J. again, this is personal preference - but that''s mine. i do have warmer colored stones, but i set them differently - either in bezel settings or in yellow gold.

good luck, and I hope you find a beauty for your katie! :)
Thanks, whitby! I''m still sorting out the color thing! I don''t think I''m color-sensitive. I couldn''t tell a D from a J, hardly, in those spotlights! In diffused light, sure. Katie, though, does have an eye! She''s an artist! BUT, she doesn''t know diddly about diamonds. She doesn''t even wear jewelry, hardly, and says she doesn''t understand why people put so much value on diamonds. Soooo. I want her very first diamond to knock her socks off! But since she doesn''t have preconceived notions of what a diamond SHOULD be, then the color grade might not be a factor, even though she has that trained eye for color.


Still thinking it over, but I LOVE some of the K, L and M stones I''ve seen here. Oh, and the setting will be yellow gold.
 
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