Here Goes... (Questions and Advice Sought)

[TakinTheLeap]

Hello Everybody,

I've been lurking around for a month, absorbing information as I've been considering picking up a diamond engagement ring. I'm so thankful for the Internet, for the wealth of information it makes available to the common consumer, and the ability to directly communicate with folks like the people here with experience and willingness to help. I don't know what I would have done if I had to do this ten years ago -- I suppose I just would've been taken in at some nearby B&M.

Anyway, I'm a grad student who has decided to take the leap and propose to my girlfriend. I have some money saved, though being a grad student, you can imagine my budget isn't unlimited. However, it's very important for me to make her happy, and I'm thinking I would like to spend around $4000-5000 on the ring.

Now, it's gotta be a surprise, so I can't just ask her what she wants. But it's something for her to have the rest of her life, and I wouldn't want to get her something she doesn't like. So I'm thinking that the best compromise between surprise and getting it just right will be for me to get the diamond, offer it to her at the proposal, and then shop together for the setting. Does this sound like a wise plan for a gal who likes to be surprised, but does have her own taste in jewelry?

Assuming I buy the diamond first, to meet my budget I need to set aside some money to anticipate the costs of purchasing a setting and having the diamond set, and use the rest to buy the diamond. For the setting, I know she's not into yellow gold, so I anticipate something in platinum, though I'm not sure if she will want something super simple, or if she wants something more elaborate. I know for other jewelry she enjoys antique style with some engraving, but I don't know if she's want that on an engagement ring. For a $4000-5000 budget, how much do you think I should spend for the diamond, and how much should I set aside to shop for the setting? Also, are there other hidden costs I need to take into account (for example, paying an appraiser, shipping costs, any taxes, how much are all these things?)

Now, on to the stone itself. Thanks to this site I know quite a bit more than I did when I began. I understand that to get the best looking stone for a budget it's probably best to get a great cut, of which there appear to be many definitions. Of course, carat can mean a lot to people seeing and comparing to the stone, but it costs the most. For color and clarity, I would like a stone that to the eye appears clear and abolutely clean, but gradations beyond what an educated layman like myself can see are unnecessary. Flourescence actually sounds cool to me, so long as it doesn't adversely affect the stone. So, if you were in my shoes, with the budget determined as above, how would you choose a particular stone, and do you have any suggestions from among all these great online retailers and available stones?

That's all I can think of for now. I really appreciate input and look forward to hearing some responses.

Cheers!
TakinTheLeap

 

[Giangi]

I'd call a friend of hers and ask her to pretend she's shopping for engagements rings. She could ask your girl's opinions and then tell you what she prefers... In this way you will make her a great surprise!!
Fluorescence is very cool... Get a fnt or med and you won't have any problem... What ct rnge are you looking at?? ~1 ct?

 

[TakinTheLeap]

Giangi,

Thanks for the idea. I don't think it would work for me, though. Out of her friends that I could trust with such a plan, none of them have a plausible reason to be shopping for an engagement ring, and I don't think any of them could pull it off without raising suspicions.

As far as carat goes, I'm looking for whatever size fits for the most beautiful stone within a ring of my budget. So, I'm not sure, but I think that something like .75 ct would be more likely than 1 ct.

TakinTheLeap

 

[Hest88]

I think getting her the diamond and letting her choose her own setting later is a perfect compromise--speaking as a very picky woman who barely let her fiance have any say in her set, of course!

Hm. Does this include the wedding ring too? Problem is, if she likes antiquey looks, she might fall in love with a rather expensive set. I suppose, though, she might be willing to compromise or put in some of her own money for the perfect setting. I know the setting for me was as important as the stone, and the wedding set ended up about the same price as the diamond. It would have cost even more if I'd opted for platinum instead of white gold. So, taking all of this into consideration (excuse me, but I'm thinking out loud here), in your shoes I'd:

1) Get a round brilliant. Safest, most traditional choice.
2) Set aside $1500 for the setting, leaving $3500 for the stone.
3) Find vendors you really trust, and get the best-looking stone you can for $3500
4) Make sure the place you buy the stone from has a lenient return or upgrade policy.
5) Have the jeweler set the stone into a cheapo white gold temporary setting (they might even throw it in for free or at minimum something nominal).
6) Propose, then shop for the setting together. If she ends up with a setting that's much cheaper than $1500, you could choose to go back to the jeweler and upgrade the diamond.

 

[TakinTheLeap]

Good input, thanks! I agree on the round brilliant stone. The idea of including a cheap temporary white gold setting is an interesting one. I wonder what sort of impression that would give to my girlfriend, though. Would people here prefer to receive a proposal with just a stone in a box, or with a cheap ring and an invitation to shop for a better one? If any of the retailers themselves are on the forum, how much would you charge for such a thing?

I wasn't accounting for the wedding bands in my budget, I would be willing to go beyond for them.

Also, she has wide fingers, around size 6.5, I think. Anything that I should take into consideration for that?

So, $3500 for the stone itself sounds like a reasonable budget. For you forum folks out there, here's your challenge: What's the best looking stone you can come up with for up to $3500? (or more or less if you think that the setting costs should be different.)

 

[Hest88]

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On 5/5/2003 5:35

0 PM TakinTheLeap wrote:

Would people here prefer to receive a proposal with just a stone in a box, or with a cheap ring and an invitation to shop for a better one?
----------------

From the responses I've seen to similar questions, it looks like ppl think most women would want to wear it right away. I was totally different, but then I'm a diamond freak. I *loved* being able to play with my stone, and see it from all angles.

Which reminds me. If you get a loose H&A, you *could* bring along a H&A viewer to show her the pretty patterns. Then she might have just as much fun without it set.

 

[pqcollectibles]

With Mother's Day this weekend, you could cruise the jewelry counters at the Maul looking at Mother's Day "gifts". That way you could wander into e-rings by "accident" and get a feel for the style of cut she'd prefer. Maybe even "show" her an e-ring or two similar to what a pal just got for his GF or a coworker just got from her BF. Just a thought.

As to loose diamond, if you go H&A you would definitely want to experience seeing the patterns with the viewer. And, you can't do that mounted. But, another guy a couple weeks ago asked the same Q and almost all the ladies suggested a simple, inexpensive setting ($150 to $300) and present the ring instead of a loose diamond. That's a tough call, but you know your gal better than we do.

Good Luck, and we promise not to tell!

 

[aljdewey]

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On 5/5/2003 5:35

0 PM TakinTheLeap wrote:
So, $3500 for the stone itself sounds like a reasonable budget. For you forum folks out there, here's your challenge: What's the best looking stone you can come up with for up to $3500
----------------

TTL, I agree with the 3500/1500 ratio. $3500 will get you a beautiful stone in the size range you mentioned.

From Good Old Gold:
.77, F, SI1, H&A, $3545, GIA cert.....http://www.goodoldgold.com/0_77ct_f_si1_h&a.htm
.79, G, SI1, H&A, $3430, GIA cert....http://www.goodoldgold.com/0_79ct_g_si1_h&a.htm

From Whiteflash:
.856, G, SI1, H&A, $3476, AGS cert
.85, G, SI1, H&A, $3295, GIA cert

From NiceIce:
.77, G, VS1, AGS0, $3575, AGS Cert
.76, F, SI1, AGS0, $3455, AGS Cert

From SuperbCert:
.81, G, SI1, H&A, $3295, GIA cert .... http://www.superbcert.com/products/index.cfm?Product_ID=501&Product_Subcategory_ID=2&Product_Category_ID=3&Product_Group_ID=1

Good luck!

 

[TakinTheLeap]

Thanks a bunch for collecting some stones to consider. Those all sound like beautiful stones. But this is where I could use some advice. What tradeoffs are best made at this level to choose a particular stone? I realize that much of it is probably subjective, but I'd appreciate some opinions anyway.

For example, Pricescope has their search by "cut quality" / "beauty". When I search there, I turn up mostly Whiteflash "A Cut Above" diamonds with HCA scores of 1-2. Would a .75 ACA stone look better than a .8 carat other stone? Also, does anyone know typical shipping rates? I notice that the Whiteflash prices include shipping.

I'm also a bit skeptical of the SI1 stones. Are they always completely eye clean? Would you guys go for a G/VS2 or a F/SI1, or a slightly smaller F/VS2? Or am I just splitting hairs now, and anything above would be great?

What do you guys think about this stone at whiteflash? Out of this and all of the above which would you pick?

Price $3367 (Pricescope price, includes shipping)
HCA 1.4
Shape A Cut Above H&A
Carat 0.75
Color G
Clarity VS2
Measurements (mm) 5.92-5.94 x 3.59
Table % 56
Depth % 60.5
Crown Angle ° 35
Crown % 15.5
Pavilion Angle ° 40.8
Pavilion % 42.7
Polish Ideal
Symmetry Ideal
Girdle 0.7 to 1.2
Culet Pointed
Fluorescence Inert

Picture:

Thanks to all - I really appreciate all the advice and help.

 

[Hest88]

I don't think you can go wrong with any of those stones. The first thing is whether or not your GF cares about things she can't see. For instance, would she thrill at knowing she has a D, IF even though neither she nor anyone she knows will be able to tell the difference?

If she's the more practical sort, and couldn't see spending more money on things undetectable, then if you get an ideal cut diamond, such as the H&A you and others have pulled up, you can safely get down to an H (and actually lower if you feel comfortable) and, in that size, a SI1 should be completely eye-clean--assuming proper grading. And, again, I'd choose a vendor I can trust who can really tell me that it's eye-clean and white. It doesn't hurt, of course, if you feel uncomfortable, to get a VS1 for that feeling of safety. However, the only way you can judge how safe you feel is by hitting your local jewelers, finding ideal cut diamonds, and seeing what you can live with.

Then, it's just a matter of choose the largest stone within your price range.

 

[pqcollectibles]

This is my .766 ct, H, SI1, A Cut Above from White Flash. 100% Eye Clean from the top. Has in internal feather that can be concealed if set in a ring.

Call White Flash and ask to speak to Brian Gavin. He will physically pull the diamonds out and discuss them over the phone with you. White Flash has a great return policy allowing plenty of time for independent evaluation. They will ship direct to Dave Atlas for evaluation prior to you having to pay. They send a great H&A kit for viewing the patterns. Plus they offer lifetime upgrade at full purchase price.

They hand made the pendant. Excellent workmanship! Brian and his crew do a beautiful cut! You can't go wrong with an ACA from WF!

 

[Info Seeker]

Hey TakinTheLeap. I'm a newbie like yourself, but I just completed my diamond search using almost exactly the same budget you set for a stone and looking at some of the same exact stones aljdewey listed in his post. So I'll share my experience if it will help.

I bought an .85 G SI1 from A Cut Above from Whiteflash.com. Like you, I was concerned about the SI1 clarity and whether the stone would truly be eye clean. One thing to remember (that I didn't realize at the time) is that clarity is graded face up. My SI1 is eye clean when I look at it as it will appear when set, but if I look through the pavilion, I can see a very small cloud without magnification. I've heard that even on some VS2s you can see inclusions through the pavilion. The inclusion on my SI1 is almost imperceptible and doesn't bother me, but I can still return it if I want (at least until tomorrow!). Most Pricescope vendors have return policies (Whiteflash has a ten day inspection period), so if you order an SI stone and don't like the way it looks, you can always return it. I felt I was able to get a slightly larger stone at a better color by dropping to the SI1 grade while still getting a beautiful eye clean diamond.

You asked about a G/VS2 vs. an F/SI1. Many people will tell you that if the SI1 is truly eyeclean you should go with the better color. I agree with this, but there is certainly an added peace of mind to getting a VS2 stone in that you don't have to worry about it being truly eye clean. But basically it's splitting hairs. You won't be able to tell the difference between a G and an F in color. You probably won't be able to tell the difference between an E and a G.

I split hairs, too. I wanted the best cut stone I could find. I sorted through the inventories of many of the most popular vendors here on Pricescope (SuperbCert, Whiteflash, GoodOldGold, NiceIce, etc.), running countless numbers through the HCA and charting out Brilliancescope results, etc. You know what I think? They all have fantastic cuts. I really don't think you can go wrong with any of them. At this point, you know enough that you've already weeded out all the clunkers. Is there a difference between a 1.1 HCA stone and a 1.8 HCA stone? Sure. Will you be able to tell? Probably not (in my opinion).

One last piece of advice. Get your stone to an independent appraiser before the return period expires. Pricescope lists some. I used Richard Sherwood, who was fantastic. It'll run you a little over $100 when you factor in shipping and everything, but it's worth it. Richard let me know that my stone was a "dead-on" SI1 and he also concluded it was "eye clean." The one interesting thing was that his figures for the crown angle were a bit different than those on the stone's AGS cert. The result was that my stone scored a 1.1 on the HCA with the AGS numbers and a 1.7 on the HCA with the appraisal numbers. At first I was a little concerned, especially since I had devoted so much time looking for the best HCA score I could find. But I like my diamond. It looks great. I could return it and begin my search again, hoping to find one with a better HCA score. But would the difference justify the time and effort spent? Not for me, especially when the new stone could also have variations in crown or pavillion angles that again give different results!

Anyway, I'm rarely this longwinded, but I'm just concluding the same experience that you are about to begin, so I thought I'd throw some encouragement your way. At this point, you're going to select a great diamond from whichever online vendor you choose. Good luck!

 

[TakinTheLeap]

Wow, thanks everyone for the good input. Info Seeker, it's great to hear from someone like me but a few steps down the road. Did you see any other diamonds in person to compare to yours? I take it you feel that a .85/SI1 is preferable to a .75/VS2. I know it's subjecive, but I like to poll - do others agree?

I'm beginning to feel fairly confident in picking out an actual stone now. A couple of you stressed getting an appraisal and even mentioned a couple of names. Do you suggest having it sent to someone near the area where I live (from Pricescope's appraisers list) so that I can meet with them, and look at the stone and talk about it face to face? Or would you recommend going with one of the names you suggest, and I take it receive the information over the phone / in writing?

Thanks so much for the help!
TakinTheLeap

 

[Hest88]

Hm. Again, if your GF doesn't care about what she can't see, then most definitely choose a .85 over a .75; it will look larger.

Regarding appraisers: it's hard to comment. These are the appraisers we trust, so naturally we'd choose a remote appraiser we'd trust over a local one we know nothing about. If you post a separate question, perhaps some of the pros can recommend appraisers in your area.

 

[TakinTheLeap]

There is an appraiser on pricescope's list of independant appraisers that is not too far from where I live, however, so there is something to recommend him. Does it make a difference if it's local or not?

 

[pqcollectibles]

If the appraiser is on the Price Scope list, rest assured he/she is great! I just suggested Dave Atlas because I know several vendors will ship directly to him without paying up front for the diamond. I honestly do forget to mention Richard Sherwood. He posts here so often and provides such good information! It's just when I was searching, I kept seeing vendors that specifically named Gem Appraisers' service. We used a local GIA Grad Appraiser to independently verfiy my diamond.

I was skiddish about clarity. I don't have a big diamond e-ring. I have an emerald as my gemstone. All my diamonds are small, invisible or channel set and VVS. I started looking for VS as the bottom I would go. But, I wanted around .75 carat in size. Sometimes we can't have our cake and eat it too. That size in that clarity would have me down to a J or K in color easily on my budget. Yuck, I thought, to those colors. Until I saw a J color ACA. Brian said it was a high J/almost I in color. There was only the faintest difference in "body" between the H and the J. You must keep in mind, I am looking at both diamonds at home in regular light, indirect outdoor light, candlelight, anything but fancy jewelry store lighting. The J was/is a VS clarity. My H, SI1 has an internal feather running perpendicular (up and down) to the table and 2 white crystals. Because the feather runs up and down, it is "hidden" from view in the facets of the cut. Yes it can be seen from the side, but easily concealed if I were to mount it in a ring.

CUT really makes all the difference. Not only in brilliance, but in color perception as well. You can be fairly comfortable getting an eye clean (when viewed from the top) diamond at SI1. SI2's can be tricky, but they are out there. With a well CUT diamond, like an H&A, you can even drop your color down 1 step and do alright. Say you "have" to have a F color. Going G would be no problem at all. You have to see H&A diamonds in person to fully appreciate them. Compared to other diamonds, H&A's glow! Throw in faint to med flour in an I or J H&A and you are good to go as well.

You sound like you got a good grasp of the basics on selecting your diamond. Now comes the tough part. Trading off here to get there and choosing one rose from the garden.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
There is an appraiser on pricescope's list of
independant appraisers that is not too far from
where I live, however, so there is something to
recommend him. Does it make a difference if it's
local or not?
-----------

Hiya Takin! The biggest difference between having it sent to a local appraiser vs an out-of-town appraiser is that you can view the diamond yourself at the appraiser's.

In Info Seeker's case, he had the diamond sent first to him so he could view it, and then he mailed it to me. I emailed the appraisal to him the same day, along with numerous photos and a critique of the diamond.

Many people have the vendor send the diamond directly to the appraiser, so the appraiser can act as their "eyes". If it checks out all green lights with him, then he sends it on to the consumer (after arrangements are made with the vendor).

All in all, it's a more efficient process than the typical path followed through on a "bricks & mortar" purchase. With the safeguard of an appraiser looking after your interests, there's very little chance of you "losing" on the deal.

 

[Mara]

Wandering in here a bit late...and this is just my 2 cents...but if I knew my guy had $5k to spend, I'd want almost all of it on the stone. It would be different if there was a larger budget to account for a nice stone and elaborate setting, but many people who get smaller stones tend to get simpler settings in order to show off the stone. Plus sometimes people are less twitchy about upgrading a setting than a stone later if there is more $$ around.

Another reason for me saying this is because I too have slightly larger fingers (or so I think anyway), a size 6. Which is still smaller than you said hers are. When trying rings on while we were looking, I felt anything under visibly under 1c (e.g. .75 and .80) was a little too small on my hand. Does she have wide hands too or just wide fingers? I have a wide hand base and to be honest I am not a fan of my hands though people tell me often I have lovely hands..I just don't like them.

If she has wide hands and/or long fingers...its my opinion that around a 1c stone would look very proportional to her hand size.

Anyway..I would put more like $4500 towards the stone and $500 towards the setting. That will enable you to get almost a 1c stone and still have $500 for a good setting. For around $500...WhiteFlash has some great solitaire settings on their site. One we were looking at was around $450 and classic looking...but I had never seen one like it before out and about.

Anyway just my two cents.

Also I found this WF stone, .92c G SI1 ACA H&A AGS0. On the SI1 vs VS2 debate...I think if you tend to work with the vendors who are very discriminating, such as NiceIce, WhiteFlash, GOG etc..those who either handpick or cut their own stones, they are probably going to have very eye clean SI1's as opposed to the random internet vendor who may not even see their stones for sale but rather use a virtual engine. Still confirm that it's eye clean but I think you have a safer branch to stand on using more particular (picky?!) vendors.

http://www.whiteflash.com/acut/diamond_details.asp?ItemCode=440109

Lastly, I'd be careful with having a friend ask her what she wants or trying to make it seem like they are just interested in her answer. As a female myself, each time a friend asked me something like that, I would always just wonder....maybe....and if you have been going out a while or she may be expecting something like this soon, she will be on her guard. So just be careful!

A woman's expectations can be a very scary thing!!

Oh and definitely have the stone set in something, even if it's a $100 temporary white gold setting...as she will want to wear it right away when she gets it. Looking at it loose is alot of fun, I did that for a week or two before we had to hand it off to the jeweler for setting, but between that time and when I finally got it on my hand, I was having ring dreams almost nightly. It was torture!

Have fun and good luck. You got much good advice here from the others.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 5/7/2003 1

7:56 AM Mara wrote:

Wandering in here a bit late...and this is just my 2 cents...but if I knew my guy had $5k to spend, I'd want almost all of it on the stone. It would be different if there was a larger budget to account for a nice stone and elaborate setting, but many people who get smaller stones tend to get simpler settings in order to show off the stone. Plus sometimes people are less twitchy about upgrading a setting than a stone later if there is more $$ around.

Here's another gal that agrees with Mara. I don't think you can go wrong w/ a classic tiffany style setting & a killer stone. *This* always speaks "engaged". 6.5 is not a small finger size. I would go for a bigger stone. SI's are a great buy. Clarity is graded w/ a 10x loupe. The eye is not 10x. Many SI's are eye clean. Also, a well cut H/I stone should face up quite white - not icey white - but white. If you add some med/stong bl. Fluor, the stone could face up even whiter. Color is graded face down - not face up.

As PQ mentioned, higher color in an emerald cut stone is important. In a RB, the cut often masks any body hue & is less a priority.

Good luck. Also, my caveat about the setting is if your "to be" has her heart set on side stones.

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 5/7/2003 9:43:19 AM fire&ice wrote:



As PQ mentioned, higher color in an emerald cut stone is important. In a RB, the cut often masks any body hue & is less a priority.



----------------

F&I misunderstood me. I have a pear shaped Brazilian Emerald as my e-ring gemstone. But F&I is right about cuts. Square cuts such as radiant, emerald, and even princess tend to hold and show more body color than round brilliants do. Higher color rating would be more important in those cuts than a round brilliant.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 5/7/2003 3:12:34 PM pqcollectibles wrote:

----------------



----------------

F&I misunderstood me. I have a pear shaped Brazilian Emerald as my e-ring gemstone. But F&I is right about cuts. Square cuts such as radiant, emerald, and even princess tend to hold and show more body color than round brilliants do. Higher color rating would be more important in those cuts than a round brilliant.

----------------

Oh, I assumed emerald cut - that was why you were skidish about clarity! Geez, got my head into diamonds too much. Colored stones are always an option for an engagement ring. I love the juxtapostion of color & colorless.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 5/7/2003 1

7:56 AM Mara wrote:
Wandering in here a bit late...and this is just my 2 cents...but if I knew my guy had $5k to spend, I'd want almost all of it on the stone

Anyway..I would put more like $4500 towards the stone and $500 towards the setting. That will enable you to get almost a 1c stone and still have $500 for a good setting.

----------------

TTL, Mara's comments make a good point about settings....it really is important for you to get an idea of what you think she'll want for a setting and price it before setting your stone budget.

Mara's preference would be to have a larger, .9 stone, so it makes sense for her in this scenario to budget $4500 on the stone and $500 on a simple solitaire setting.

In my case, we're working with about a $5k budget, but the setting we want is similar to a Verragio setting....a little more detailed with side stones, and it will cost about $1500 to make it custom. In my case, I'd prefer to sacrifice the 15 points of stone and go with a .75 carat so I can get the setting I want.

Neither is a "right" answer....Mara's choice is right for her wants, and my choice is right for what I want. If your budget is not expandable, then you need to get a more solid idea of what you'd like in a setting and what that may cost so you'll know what's available for a stone.

If your girl wants a simple solitaire setting, then you can get more stone as Mara suggested. But in order for you to know, you should price a few possible settings to be sure if you don't want to blow your budget.

 

[fire&ice]

As an aside, my personal experience (which may be outdated)..... The setting was never an issue with us. My "to be" wanted my engagement ring to be a solitaire. He wanted there to be no doubt that my ring was an engagement ring. It wasn't a possessive thing - just something he got in his head. He told me I could reset it after we were married. He surprised me with a diamond wedding band & I like to look - never changed until much later.

Maybe I am outdated. Maybe more setting options are out there. I don't remember any of my friends getting anything other than a solitaire.

But, I would definitely try to feel her out if she wants a more substantial setting than a solitaire. Perhaps enlist a family member to feel her out.

 

[aljdewey]

Great point, F&I. I think there tend to be so many more setting choices today then there used to be, and it seems like there is a tremendous emphasis now on individuality.

I initially wanted to pursue a squarish shaped stone because I wanted something different, something that would be more unique than the standard RB in solitaire setting. In the learning process, I came to the conclusion that the performance of the diamond is just too important to me, and that it would be hard to match the performance of a RB.

That's when I started considering a more unique setting instead. This line of thinking also took care of another problem...not liking the look of the solitaire on my hand.

If TTL's girl is a traditionalist, though, and wants a simple solitaire....oh boy, then I'd definitely go with the $4500/500 Mara suggested and get all the stone I could for the money.