Help with Yellow?

[yssie]

So... I'm looking for a stone It's my first "big" foray into the world of CS, and I could really use some help from the experts on here

I've read the "New to gemstones" thread, and I've combed the suggested sellers list. I'm looking specifically for a yellow CS to replace a diamond in a setting I've already got, so there are some size and shape restrictions: round in outline, 8.6-8.9mm in diameter, maximum of 4.9mm deep (girdle to culet). The setting does have some room for "bulgy" pavilions, and it'll be an occasional-wear ring so softer stones are okay.

I'd love something sparkly (so higher RI?), precision-cut, yellow-leaning-brown (vs. yellow-leaning-green, or even "lemonade" yellow). I definitely want a faceted stone, and I'm most willing to compromise on sparkle, then precision cutting - my top priority would be colour. I'm fine with treatments as long as they're permanent (no fading, filling, etc.) - which is lucky, because my budget is $2k at the absolute max and I'd prefer to stay at 1-1.5k if that's possible.


Questions...

1. Can you suggest some stone types? I'm assuming sapphire (with the colour and saturation I'd want) would be way out of budget. Is yellow zircon usually heated - and if so, is it low heat that might fade? Does chrysoberyl come in yellow-leaning-brown/orange as opposed to yellow-leaning-green? Would asking a vendor to precision-cut beryl be "not cricket"? Is trying to set sphene in a pronged setting a lost cause?

2. Given the size and shape requirements, realistically, what are my odds of being able to fulfill this without going custom? I'm not in a terrible hurry, but I'd love to find something in a few weeks/months. If having something custom cut is my best option, can anyone suggest specific vendors whom I might approach?


This is colour I'm after (Both of these are zircons)
- - - - - - - - - -



This zircon, on the other hand, looks more greyish to me - maybe less orangey? Which I don't love. What colour is this, and how does it differ from the two above? (Or is it all in the photography!?)
- - - - - - - - - -


And this sapphire leans far too green for me:
- - - - - - - - - -

 

[dk168]

I learnt via the experts in CS that Chrysoberyls are durable enough for everyday wear,and I have seen some stunning yellow ones at Jeff White's sold gemstone gallery for "other gemstones":

http://www.whitesgems.com/othergemsgallery.html

Jeff Davies currently have a few listed on his site:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Fine-Gemst...11145015&_sid=122712575&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

Good luck with your search.

DK

 

[Niel]

I'm not sure I'll be able to find a link,but a now sold finewater chrysoberyl had the yellow you want, no green. You're right most do shift to chartreuse but not all.

 

[Dioptase]

Questions...

1. Can you suggest some stone types? I'm assuming sapphire (with the colour and saturation I'd want) would be way out of budget. Is yellow zircon usually heated - and if so, is it low heat that might fade? Does chrysoberyl come in yellow-leaning-brown/orange as opposed to yellow-leaning-green? Would asking a vendor to precision-cut beryl be "not cricket"? Is trying to set sphene in a pronged setting a lost cause?

- Yeah, yellow zircon is often heated. It's low heat (you can do it yourself if you want) and it doesn't fade.
- Yes, chrysoberyl comes in brownish yellow, it's much cheaper and less desirable than the neon yellow / yellow-green color.
- You can choose a golden beryl too. Note that some are irradiated; you can't tell if it's treated or not (you can have a guess but not prove) but the treatment is stable.
- Imperial topaz might also be an option. It's a really nice stone, with a "liquid" glow to it in low light.

 

[chrono]

Hi Yssie! So glad to see you foray into CS and hope you'll have fun. Hmmm, 9 mm is very large and rounds are a desired but uncommon shape...

1. I think almost all yellow zircon are heated. The treatment is permanent and stable. Yes, some chrysoberyl can be a bit brownish but not orangish but most tend to have some green. What is "not cricket"? There are some brave PSers (LD comes to mind as one) who owns and wears a prong set sphene halo ring.

2. It is very likely that you have to go custom due to the shape and size requirement. The usual suspects are Jerry Newman, Jeff White, Roger Dery and Peter Torraca. Gene Flanigan is sometimes open to commissions.

JW Zircon cushion - brown yellow
Gene's Zircon cushion - yellow with very good saturation (very little brown)
Gene's elongated cushion - gray yellow

 

[yssie]

Thank you DK! Wear was one of the reasons I was drawn to chrysoberyl too - granted, it will be an occasional-wear ring (the setting is incredibly delicate and I'd be terrified to wear it regularly) so soft stones would be okay, but of course I'd prefer something more durable if possible. Finding one in the right colour with the right shape and size doesn't seem like it will be possible without going custom, though.


Niel - if anyone would know re. possible chrysoberyl colours you would My skin is yellowish brown and the setting has three colours - very very light yellow, light yellow, and honey-golden-darker-yellow, and greenish-yellow looks very out of place in the palette. Both skin and setting are very forgiving of brown, though... that honey-gold-amber-colour makes me melt


Dioptase, thank you!! Low heat treamtents and irradiation (actually, any treatments) are fine by me as long as they're permanent, so it's helpful to hear confirmation that there's nothing to worry about re. the colour changing over time. I'd be delighted to find a brownish yellow chrysoberyl and pay less for it I know with precision-cutting you're paying for the cutting more than the material, and I'd be happy to pay a premium for precision-cut less-desirable (non-neon yellow) material, I'm just concerned that the premium will be more than I can afford regardless of material choice Thanks also for the mention of imperial topaz - the yellower varieties are lovely! I'll reach out to some vendors today.


Chrono!! I'm thrilled to have your opinion No worries on treatments as long as they're permanent and stable, so that's comforting. Thanks so much for elaborating on exactly what colours those three stones are - I do see brown in the first and grey in the third, but I think my eyes are confusing "shadow" with "brown" in the second: I guessed the colour to be the same as the first, and pegged the difference as change in brightness due to faceting style.

Hah, by "not cricket" I really meant "would I offend a vendor if I asked him to precision-cut a material like beryl?" I see that many of these vendors *have* worked with a variety of materials, though, not just the "expensive stuff", so that's probably a needless concern. I'll reach out to the vendors you suggested and ask if custom cutting something might be possible.

 

[Acinom]

Good luck in finding your dream stone Yssie. I have also been on a quest for yellow, resulting in Jeff white cutting a yellow zircon for me. It is from the same rough as the first stone you posted and will have the same cut. It will be ready in a few weeks.

Don't worry about vendors only cutting 'high end' stones. Most of them seem to take pride in cutting a large range of stones. I would also contact Doug Menadue from Bespoke Gems in Australia. He is a great guy and he might have more rough than listed on his website.

For your inspiration and eyecandy I am adding two more examples of yellow stones. Both cut by Gene.

 

[pregcurious]

Yssie, just came by to say that i love all the yellows you posted

 

[lilmosun]

Laughing at the title (and commiserating) as I have been on the hunt for the "right" yellow stone to go in a setting with other colored stones and hope you have better luck than I have so far (I keep telling myself to be patient). You may need to see a few stones in person to figure it out...I find yellow stones more so than others are hard to judge in pictures. Like you, I am trying to avoid spending on a sapphire.

For reference (although I am looking for a smaller stone), I've looked at chrysoberyls, tourmalines and garnets. Danburite has also been suggested. Good luck!

 

[chrono]

Many lapidaries have custom cut both zircon and beryl so they won't be rolling their eyes at you. Although I like the idea of imperial topaz, those tend to be pricey, even for brownish material.

 

[0-0-0]

Hi Yssie! The right yellow stone is indeed very, very tough to find. For my own search I ended up with a yellow danburite from Precision Gem. I had pretty much the same requirements you do. It should fit well within your budget unless prices have skyrocketed over the past year.

Danburite rough from @PrecisionGem https://twitter.com/PrecisionGem/status/430535295486816256

 

[Arcadian]

Setting a sphene can be a nightmare. You need a bench with experience and a light touch that understands how fragile that stone is.

I had one set, and was told that I had better not ask for another set again the guy was good but I understand where he's coming from.

The 4ct sphene in my avatar still is unset, and likely will stay that way.

 

[yssie]

Acinom - Yellow is the perfect complement to your already utterly enviable collection And Jeff white has more of that same material left over and is cutting for you!? Lucky, lucky creature!

I contacted him via his online form yesterday evening. I also contacted Peter Torraca and Jerry Newman, and both Peter and Jerry responded incredibly quickly - it seems like it would be a pleasure to work with either of them

The danburite is gorgeous!! The zircon - does that have some brown, or is it shadows tricking me again? (I quite like that colour, too, but the danburite just steals the show!)


preg - Oh I love 'em too I'm super excited about this project! The setting is YG and WG, so it seems very appropriate to have it feature a warm golden stone


lilmosun - Zircon and chrysoberyl are probably at the top of my list of "ideal world preferences", just from a sparkle perspective. Jerry mentioned tourmaline as an option, which I hadn't thought about but also definitely fits the bill! I must say I'm having a hard time with the pictures, too, though. I can see differences - well, I think I can, I always do well on the "spot the colour difference" quizzes that pop up in this forum every so often - but putting that into words, or judging what's colour and what's photography, are skills I've yet to hone... baby steps!!


Chrono - Hah, yeah, that was definitely a needless worry! I did reach out to three of the vendors you suggested - Jerry Newman, Peter Torraca, and Jeff White, and so far I've heard back from both Jerry and Peter. They both seem very friendly and easy to work with! Jerry suggested quartz, and whilst I love the colour it's not my first choice of material - I'd prefer something sparklier if possible... but I know that may not be possible! He mentioned poking around for some zircon and "sunset" tourmaline, both of which sound fantastic. Peter's first suggestion was scapolite - I liked the colour of the one pic he sent, and I'm going to google (well, PS) in detail after work tonight


thb - Ugh, way to make a girl feel hopeful Goodness, your rough looks exactly right for what I want, though! It's exactly the right golden honey colour. Do you have the stone yet? Does it look anything like the danburite from Gene Acinom posted earlier?


Arcadian - Your jeweller's honesty is to be commended and yes, I'll be skipping the sphene!!! There are SO many options - it really is a world of colour. I can see how people become addicted to this

 

[0-0-0]

I actually got my stone last summer, but haven't gotten around to taking pictures of it yet. I'll dig it out and do so later.

I don't think mine is as rich looking as the oval Acinom posted, but it should be from the same batch of rough. Gene gave mine a 9/10 for color and a 10/10 for the the oval. I don't want to post Gene's shot of my stone without my shots for comparison as I think his shot is really terrible ... for once!

 

[0-0-0]

Gene's description and picture first. The color of the center of the stone in his picture is actually very close to what I see in person for the whole stone. I don't see the dead perimeter at all in person.

Here is a Yellow Danburite from Tanzania. Much Much Much nicer in person, the photo is not very good. The color is a pure yellow, and the needle type inclusions are not visible with the naked eye. Cut in my Jua Round design.

Gem 1584 - Danburite
3.775 ct. A bright danburtie cut in my Jua Round design. The picture doesn't do this stone justice, the color is pure yellow, no brown, and the stone is very bright with lots of life. There are some needle type inclusions that show int he picture, but not to the naked eye. The stone faces up eye clean. 9.32mm diameter.

Color: 9/10 Clarity: 8/10 Brilliance: 5/5 TQR: 9.0

My photos came out slightly grayish, but I think my pictures are better at showing the evenness of the color and faceting. The danburite is sitting on a piece of white Bounty paper towel. The yellow in the middle of the stone in Gene's picture is more accurate for actual color. There is almost no color shift that I can see based on the lighting that I have around me. Good luck with your search! Hope you hear from Jeff White soon, he's easy to work with but usually takes a few days to respond.

 

[yssie]

Thb - Thank you for posting!! Your stone is GORGEOUS That is exactly the colour I want, absolutely dead on for it! Honey and sunshine blending together into warm autumn glow... and I don't see a dead outline in your photos at all!

Jeff White also responded to my inquiry and mentioned that he thought he had some of the same zircon material as the cushion in my first post - the same material Acinom's cushion will be cut from. I have enthusiastically taken him up on his offer I plan to wait to hear Peter's initial thoughts, Jerry's first findings, and whether Jeff might have enough rough for the size and shape I need, and then move forward with one vendor.

 

[Niel]

Thb - Thank you for posting!! Your stone is GORGEOUS That is exactly the colour I want, absolutely dead on for it! Honey and sunshine blending together into warm autumn glow... and I don't see a dead outline in your photos at all!

Jeff White also responded to my inquiry and mentioned that he thought he had some of the same zircon material as the cushion in my first post - the same material Acinom's cushion will be cut from. I have enthusiastically taken him up on his offer I plan to wait to hear Peter's initial thoughts, Jerry's first findings, and whether Jeff might have enough rough for the size and shape I need, and then move forward with one vendor.

How awesome to see things come through so quickly. You hardly see that on the CS side lol

 

[PrecisionGem]

Someone mentioned that the zircons don't 'fade'. This isn't really true. I have cut a bunch of these over the years, and they all drift after heating. It takes some time, maybe about a week. Right after heating the color looks fantastic, but then it slowly starts to drift back, not fully or nearly fully to the original color, but the saturation certainly goes down. I have seen yellow stones go from a saturation of 5 o 6 after they were heated and cooled, back to maybe 2 over the period of a week or so. Reheating can bring them back to life, and normally the drifting back in color is less after reheating, however you need to be really careful not to over heat the stone or it will loose too much color and be very pale.
The stones can be heated over a small flame held in forceps, but I find the color drifts much less if heated in the oven and held for some time. Oven heating slowly ramps up the temperature, then holds the stone at the final temperature for an hour or more, then slowly cools down. The whole process may take around 12 hours, where heating over a flame takes about 3 or 4 minutes. The trick is finding the right temperature, it seems every parcel of these zircons I have worked with from Tanzania heat best at a little different temperature.

 

[yssie]

Niel - Yes, this is certainly temptation for someone best rewarded by instant gratification

I wonder if part of it is because I know exactly what I want and there are so many weight, shape, and size restrictions due to already having a setting? Because of that I've essentially avoided the "well, I didn't necessarily want a cushion but the colour is killer" ruminations... or maybe I just got really lucky this time around


Gene - Thank you so much for chiming in!! I'm - well, not terribly thrilled to read your post, but I'm very glad you've brought this to my attention: the setting is fussy, busy, and entirely irreplaceable, the prongs are an alloy of WG that is known for being particularly brittle, and I most definitely do not want to attempt the un-setting and re-setting routine more than once.

Re. heating and re-heating zircon - you mentioned that each parcel seems to respond best to a slightly different temperature. Can I ask how you go about finding the right temperature?

And more questions if you don't mind... when you re-heat, is the second heating usually done at the same temperature? You also mention that re-heating seems to "stabilise" the colour/saturation further - is that re-heating process common, and is it usually done after that first week or two, or is there some benefit to waiting longer? And what sorts of temperatures are we talking about - is it possible to re-heat whilst still set (assuming a setting made of 18k gold)?

Thanks!!

ETA: Thb, or anyone else - danburite is also usually heated, right?

 

[Acinom]

You are moving fast Yssie! Please keep us updated.
Hmm, not quite thrilled to read Gene's post either... I did not know this. But it's very informative.

Thank you for your kind words Yssie!

 

[PrecisionGem]

The yellow danburite from Tanzania is not heated, and is a nicer color than 95% of the yellow zircons I have seen.

To find the right temperature, you start low and work your way up. Heating is like cutting hair. When I was a child, my mother used to go to this hair dresser, and he would always say: "shorter I can make it, but longer I'm having trouble." Same thing with the stones, you can always go hotter, but once you go to hot there is no turning back.

I normally after heating a stone, let it sit for several days, then if needed heat it again, the second time often over a flame so that I can watch it. The first oven heating tends to set the stone better than an initial heating just over a flame.

The temperatures, while considered low for heating of stones, are going to be higher than your kitchen oven can go.

 

[yssie]

Acinom - I definitely will! And I'm catching up on your thread in the meantime


Gene - Thanks again for elaborating. I'm wondering about heating... say, zircon, as an example...

Does heating change the hue of a stone, or the tone, or the saturation? And when the colour "fades" within that first week or so, does that mean
- Tone creeps whiter?
- Tone creeps back toward what it was originally, whether that's blacker or whiter?
- Saturation diminishes?
- The actual hue itself of the stone changed on heating, and now drifts back toward whatever it was originally?

My assumption on first read was that heating zircon lightened (whitened) tone and increased saturation, and that "fading" meant re-darkening tone and decreasing saturation back toward what it was originally, but I had not considered that the hue itself might shift as well.

May I pester you for more explanation?


ETA: My mum cut my hair as a child and I remember never having an even length on both sides. I learnt the art of the ponytail very early on

ETA: Newbie question - does heating most varieties of stone have the same effects on hue/tone/saturation, or do different species react totally differently?

 

[PrecisionGem]

Here's a picture of some zircon from Tanzania. The stones are all from the same parcel, and most likely the same mine location. The stones on the left have been heated, the ones on the right not heated. Left unheated they are a brown/honey color.

In this case, heated changes the hue of the stone and the tone. When I say the stones drift, what I mean is they drift back towards their original color. Not fully back however. Years ago I had a parcel of zircon from Nigeria, these stones were a dark brown color, after heating they would turn into a fantastic orange that had a glow like a burning ember. However, within about ½ hour they went right back to the original color. The only thing to with these stones is to heat them to a high temperature that turns them completely colorless.

Many, maybe most types stones don't respond to heat, and those that do, don't always respond in a favorable way.

Normally I heat the stones after cutting, as it is safer, but these were very clean, and I wanted to see a group of them and how they responded.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Here is an example of a cut zircon with before and after heating

 

[yssie]

Gene -

Thank you again for your elaboration!! And also for the photos - this is fascinating! Heating really has changed the colour of those pieces significantly - without the context of this thread I might not have believed they were the same rough...

That some specimens hold their colour after a low-heat treatment or two whilst others (like your Nigerian parcel) simply refuse is interesting. My inference is that sufficiently high temperature (enough to turn them colourless) was also enough to ensure that they were past the point of no return re. regression to original colour.

The difference is even more startling in the cut stone pictures!! Does heating change other properties of zircon besides colour - RI? I know heating can destroy inclusions in other varieties of stone...
And another question: I know that with coloured diamonds the faceting is often altered to showcase a particular colour - a darker-toned stone might have larger facets designed to reflect fewer light path lengths internally, whereas a lighter-toned stone might be faceted to force light bounce around inside for as long as possible to saturate the colour as much as possible. You mentioned that you usually cut before you heat: do you usually plan on a certain end-colour when you choose a particular faceting style? And this is further compounded by cutting rough into a certain shape to lose as little material as possible - so many variables..!

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Hiya...

Wow, you are lucking out! LOL I've been at the yellow thing awhile & although I do have a yellow sapphire on reserve with Gary while he's away, I'm not sure about it yet. It's rather deep & he did discount the price reflecting that so it should be a win win for me. ** Sigh** When I start to waffle, I get back on the colourless search engines back to my comfort zone. However, I'm not that bright because of my need for different shapes, I'm sinking in the step cut world. I'm really not ahead of this game. LOL Although I don't voluntarily WANT another round, it seems I gravitate towards them! Africa Gems posted a video on You Tube for a 6.9mm round but it's too medium a colour for me, perhaps it might be something you're interested in.

Hope you find something that you love.

Judy

 

[Acinom]

Hi Yssie: how is your search towards yellow progressing?
Last night I received a message from Jeff: my zircon has been cut and then heated after cutting. You may find the pics of the rough, the (lovely) faceted stone pre heating and finally the result after heating in my thread on the last page: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/finally-some-yellow-in-my-future-the-jeff-white-saga.211900/page-4']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/finally-some-yellow-in-my-future-the-jeff-white-saga.211900/page-4[/URL]

 

[yssie]

Thanks Judy! Re. your stone on reserve - do you mean that the shape is deep, and it faces up smaller than one might assume for the carat? Do you like the colour?

Yeah - I've stayed out of CS until now for mostly the same reason. I feel very comfortable with diamonds... I can predict how they'll behave and I know what I like, and I have a good handle on what I can and can't afford. The world of CSs is a veritable smorgasbord of options and it's pretty overwhelming! I have to say, though, CS PSers are super helpful

Step cuts... are one of those things I lust after in theory but, like you, somehow pretty much always choose brilliants over when it comes time to actually buy. I lust after step cut coloured stones, too... I wonder if I'd feel the same way?

I know that I want red next. Less than two weeks after I started my yellow hunt. Rabbit, meet hole.

ETA: Two weeks? I mean... one?


Acinom I did make a decision! Jeff White apparently has some zircon from the same parcel as yours that can make the size I need I've left faceting up to him - the only real hurdle is that the stone must meet the setting's proportions requirements. He did confirm that the heating treatment will be permanent, and Peter Torraca mentioned that whether or not treatments stick can depend on the rough, even within the same "species" of stone. Jeff seems great to work with and I would love to do other projects with both Peter and Jerry, too

One thing I have learnt in my short time here - colour is not king, for me: I would rather sacrifice a little on colour for precision cutting.

Your yellow is STUNNING!! I'll be over the moon if mine comes out with that sort of colour (I actually LOVE that pre-heating red, too)...

 

[chrono]

If you think trying to find your yellow is challenging, add 100x for the colour red.

 

[Acinom]

Yay! You move fast Yssie. That's great news. I cannot wait to see how this project will progress. Working with Jeff is such a pleasurable experience.

I love the colour pre-heating too
Could be worth it to ask Jeff about it. I wonder whether it's the reddish colour we see in the photo or more of an amber/orange like Jeff describes and which would be more like the photo Gene posted above of the zircon pre heating.

Enjoy the process