Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Help with upgrade to 4 carat MRB

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
Hello everyone,

It has been a really tough few years and hubby has tentatively agreed to upgrade my MRB engagement ring. This will definitely be the last upgrade for life so I want to get it right and am calling upon your wisdom and help. :dance:

My current ring is a 2.15 carat I color VS1 purchased from a B&M store in Australia where I live. Here is the certificate: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=1172993038
I am very happy with this ring and the color so I definitely don't need a higher color. Clarity wise as long as it is eye clean then I am happy. I have J and K color earrings from BGD and although I can't tell them apart I definitely do see a tint in them compared to my I color ring. I also have H color earrings from tiffany and I can't really tell the color apart from my I color.

My requirements for the upgrade are:
1. Size (must face up >10mm)
2. Budget (pricing seems to vary wildly from $70k AUD to $90K AUD - I would like to keep it as low as possible while still having good performance)
3. Color (Happy with I color however I've never seen a large J color stone. Much prefer the J color prices however I don't want an obvious tint as it will be set in platinum)
4. Clarity (as long as it is eye clean with no 'dangerous' inclusions)

I am in no rush to buy the diamond and don't mind waiting for the right stone

I have a few questions for the experts :lol::

1. I've had a look online and there seems to be a HUGE price difference between J and I color diamonds in the 4 carat size range. I don't want to get something that I will regret as it is a pretty big purchase however is there a bigger discrepancy between H-I color vs I-J color? I need to justify the massive price jump from J to I. To my eye my I color looks white.

2. I've contacted HPD to get a price estimate on I color 4 carat. They have advised pricing is unstable due to covid and there is a worldwide shortage of I color 4 carat rough however will do a search for me. Has covid driven prices up or down? Would a worldwide shortage mean I color 4 carat rough would be trading at a premium?

3. How much premium would I expect to pay at an ideal cut vendor compared to a triple ex GIA with a good HCA score? Is the difference very noticable between an ideal cut and ex/ex/ex GIA with good angles?

4. The B&M store has given me the following two options. Are they too deep?

Option 1. Cost to upgrade = $83,800.00 to pay final.
Shape: ROUND
Certificate / Reference No.: GIA / 6214014684
Carat: 5.01
Colour / Clarity: I / VS2
Cut / Polish / Symmetry: EXCELLENT / EXCELLENT / EXCELLENT
Fluorescence: NONE
Shade / Luster: NONE / EXCELLENT
Measurement: 10.81 - 10.88 * 6.81
Table: 56
Total Depth: 62.8
Media Link: https://pck2.azureedge.net/stone-mu...ia.htm?stoneId=9834570259&showMediaType=Video

Option 2. Cost to upgrade = $92,300.00 to pay final.
Shape: ROUND
Certificate / Reference No.: GIA / 6207902235
Carat: 4.01
Colour / Clarity: G / VS1
Cut / Polish / Symmetry: EXCELLENT / EXCELLENT / EXCELLENT
Fluorescence: NONE
Shade / Luster: NONE / EXCELLENT
Measurement: 10.02 - 10.09 * 6.38
Table: 55
Total Depth: 63.5
D/R: 10.06
Media Link: https://pck2.azureedge.net/stone-mu...ia.htm?stoneId=7834200187&showMediaType=Video

5. I have considered the option of trading in the current 2 carat to keep prices low. Is it worth trading in or is the trade in amount usually so little that it is not very worth it?

6. I can't even find any I color 4 carat stones on the ideal cut vendor websites. Whiteflash only has J (around $50k USD) or H (around $90k USD). Would the price of an I fall somewhere in the middle?

If you've read this mountain of text thank you :mrgreen2::mrgreen2::mrgreen2:
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
8,221
You've got 120 or so stones in the search tool with the specs 4ct+, J+, SI1+, <USD70k (<c.AUD90k) that are within parameters generally recommended on PS and with Very Good or Excellent HCA scores (which means the angles should work well together):

https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/UQ96uo


If you increase clarity requirements to VS1 you drop to 22 stones right now, but they should all very definitely be eye-clean (inspection always needed 'just in case', of course :) ):



Larger stones will show more colour than smaller stones (because there is more material for the light to pass through) so a J in a 4ct or 5ct might look more strongly tinted than a J in a 2ct.

Whether you see it and how you feel about it are two different things, of course, so it is worth trying to find one locally to view (GIA or AGS graded) so you can rule them in or out :)
 

Polabowla

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
1,474
So you're not keeping the 4.5 ct oec from your last post? It was so beautiful!
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
10,393
Both the diamonds you posted seem a bit deep. They wanted to get it over the whole number. For that much money I would not compromise, and you’re not in a rush. Super ideals will look generally look bigger with edge to edge brightness and minimal leakage. However at that size there aren’t that many so I could look at AGS000 and GIA 3x as long as they provide an ASET.
Whether it’s worth it depends on how much the 2 carat means to you and whether you have plans for it, and how much you’re getting. Very personal decision.
yes a 4 carat will be harder to find than a 2 carat. Price should reflect that.
If you’re looking around at stores, please buy an Ideal scope and learn how to use it. For such a big investment it is worth it.
 
Last edited:

Kim N

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
1,432
In addition to HPD, Whiteflash can also custom-cut a diamond for you with your size/color/clarity specifications. Personally, I agree with @LLJsmom. For that price, I wouldn't compromise, including on cut.
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
You've got 120 or so stones in the search tool with the specs 4ct+, J+, SI1+, <USD70k (<c.AUD90k) that are within parameters generally recommended on PS and with Very Good or Excellent HCA scores (which means the angles should work well together):

https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/UQ96uo


If you increase clarity requirements to VS1 you drop to 22 stones right now, but they should all very definitely be eye-clean (inspection always needed 'just in case', of course :) ):



Larger stones will show more colour than smaller stones (because there is more material for the light to pass through) so a J in a 4ct or 5ct might look more strongly tinted than a J in a 2ct.

Whether you see it and how you feel about it are two different things, of course, so it is worth trying to find one locally to view (GIA or AGS graded) so you can rule them in or out :)

thank you! I think I will keep it to an excellent HCA score for mind clean purposes and I color as I am unsure about J. I’m not even sure if a local shop would have a well cut J to show me bI will ask.

I was looking at the stone from JA https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...ferral&utm_campaign=earthdiamonds-ps&a_aid=ps
I’ve attached the cert below. What are your thoughts on this one?

So you're not keeping the 4.5 ct oec from your last post? It was so beautiful!

I am! I am getting it reset in yellow gold at the moment as the platinum setting makes it look a bit funny in some lightin

Both the diamonds you posted seem a bit deep. They wanted to get it over the whole number. For that much money I would not compromise, and you’re not in a rush. Super ideals will look generally look bigger with edge to edge brightness and minimal leakage. However at that size there aren’t that many so I could look at AGS000 and GIA 3x as long as they provide an ASET.
Whether it’s worth it depends on how much the 2 carat means to you and whether you have plans for it, and how much you’re getting. Very personal decision.
yes a 4 carat will be harder to find than a 2 carat. Price should reflect that.
If you’re looking around at stores, please buy an Ideal scope and learn how to use it. For such a big investment it is worth it.

I have an ideal scope card however I will look at getting the actual ideal scope too. I don’t think any stores have 4 carats in stock so they will need to order them in for me. I will have to eliminate based off certificates for the most part I think.

In addition to HPD, Whiteflash can also custom-cut a diamond for you with your size/color/clarity specifications. Personally, I agree with @LLJsmom. For that price, I wouldn't compromise, including on cut.

Oh wow. I didn’t know that. They didn’t mention it in the online chat!

I wonder if a “high J” would look drastically different to a “low J”? 67280972-65A6-4490-AFA6-3005D3BC4FBD.png
 

Polabowla

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
1,474
Oh that's awesome! Both rings will be beautiful I'm sure!
(I'm no use on cuts and specs since mine is a heart not a round. But I know ppl here can really help w those)
 

Kim N

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
1,432
I wonder if a “high J” would look drastically different to a “low J”?

Maybe not drastically different, but it could still look noticeably different.

The I VS1 you just posted looks promising. Can you get an Ideal-Scope image?
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
Maybe not drastically different, but it could still look noticeably different.

The I VS1 you just posted looks promising. Can you get an Ideal-Scope image?

I requested one and got this response:

“I am sorry we dont have the idealscope for this and due to covid we cant get new ones. But honestly you wont have any problems with this diamond.”

:shock:This doesn’t make me feel very comfortable, given it is not a small purchase.

I also saw this stone which has sold already however the price is almost 10k less than the JA stone. Is this due to the fluorescence or a slightly poorer cut?

 

Kim N

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
1,432
I also saw this stone which has sold already however the price is almost 10k less than the JA stone. Is this due to the fluorescence or a slightly poorer cut?

Perhaps a little of both. That one scores 3.4 on the HCA.

If not an Ideal-Scope image, can you get a regular photo for the first I VS1?
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
Perhaps a little of both. That one scores 3.4 on the HCA.

If not an Ideal-Scope image, can you get a regular photo for the first I VS1?

No they said they don’t have anything other than the 360 image online :confused:
 

Kim N

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
1,432

How does this one look? I’ve never heard of this vendor before though

I've seen that vendor mentioned in the Lab-Grown forum, but not as much here in RockyTalky. This stone has an HCA of 0.7, which may mean it's slightly better for pendants and earrings than for rings. Can you link the 360 video for the first I VS1 above (the one with the 35 crown)?
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
I've seen that vendor mentioned in the Lab-Grown forum, but not as much here in RockyTalky. This stone has an HCA of 0.7, which may mean it's slightly better for pendants and earrings than for rings. Can you link the 360 video for the first I VS1 above (the one with the 35 crown)?


the video is just the one here on their website. Does this diamond seem to have a brown tint or is it just the video?
 

Kim N

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
1,432
If you're leaning towards this one, you might want to call on some experts on this forum to assess the diamond image, since there are no light return images. I don't see a brown tint; maybe a yellowish tint, but no different from their other I VS1 stones in this size range. If you really like it, you could also have it shipped to a reputable appraiser to assess the light return for you.
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
If you're leaning towards this one, you might want to call on some experts on this forum to assess the diamond image, since there are no light return images. I don't see a brown tint; maybe a yellowish tint, but no different from their other I VS1 stones in this size range. If you really like it, you could also have it shipped to a reputable appraiser to assess the light return for you.

thanks I think I will keep this one as a backup if whiteflash or HPD are unable to source any stones for me to choose from.

I’m not really on board with their customers service at the moment telling me “we can’t get any other images but don’t worry this diamond will be fine.”
 

maryjane04

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
683
I’m not really on board with their customers service at the moment telling me “we can’t get any other images but don’t worry this diamond will be fine.”

Exactly. We want you to spend 70-90k but don't want you to have anymore information lol. Even buying a brand new car there are pictures (if they have it in stock of course).
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
I’m looking and looking and now I’m getting analysis paralysis :eek-2:

I’m wondering if I should get a slightly smaller stone with a higher color (3.5ish H or G color)

this would be an everyday ring for me and my finger is size 3.
Only thing is I don’t want to regret not getting a bigger stone later on.
Aarrggh first world problems!


The stats and price of this one is very appealing

is there a huge difference between 3 and 4 carats on the finger?
 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
10,393
I’m looking and looking and now I’m getting analysis paralysis :eek-2:

I’m wondering if I should get a slightly smaller stone with a higher color (3.5ish H or G color)

this would be an everyday ring for me and my finger is size 3.
Only thing is I don’t want to regret not getting a bigger stone later on.
Aarrggh first world problems!


The stats and price of this one is very appealing

is there a huge difference between 3 and 4 carats on the finger?

Yes, there will be on your tiny finger. You will see it. Just out of curiosity, how big do you want your eventual (final) stone to be?
 

Lessics

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
690
If you are scared of regretting your choice. Go with white flash or Hp
Diamonds! Their upgrade policy’s make it so easy to change your mind. I would try a higher color out, as your oec is already in a beautiful lower color. Maybe you will appreciate these different kind of flavors and also sizes on your finger. Just to have a bit more variety in your collection (:
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
Yes, there will be on your tiny finger. You will see it. Just out of curiosity, how big do you want your eventual (final) stone to be?

That’s a good question and I don’t know lol

I want to something big and beautiful for everyday wear that doesn’t look ridiculous. I don’t like to wear head to toe in bling and designer and I like my accessories to subtly elevate my outfits.
I’ve been playing around with this tool and now I’m unsure if I really need 4 carats.

4 vs 3
4 vs 3.5


A24E2DD2-725D-42F4-BC46-32DAB489B94D.png
6BDDDA2A-7140-4D1B-8E1F-C199D228CCD7.png
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,703
I’m looking and looking and now I’m getting analysis paralysis :eek-2:

I’m wondering if I should get a slightly smaller stone with a higher color (3.5ish H or G color)

this would be an everyday ring for me and my finger is size 3.
Only thing is I don’t want to regret not getting a bigger stone later on.
Aarrggh first world problems!


The stats and price of this one is very appealing

is there a huge difference between 3 and 4 carats on the finger?

Since you already have a 4+ ct OEC, I would think it would be nice not to have both diamonds virtually the exact same size. On a size 3 finger, a 3 ct stone will look very large!!! I wear a 5.5 and tried on a superideal 5 ct one time, and it literally covered the entire width of my finger and didn't look good, in my opinion.

Stones over 4 cts are never plentiful in superideal cuts, and now supplies are lower than usual with all the shutdowns. So you likely will have to either go for a 3ct now or wait and get a 4 ct later on. I would not recommend going down to J color. I can definitely see the tint and less brightness in a J than in higher colors.
 

Big Fat Facets

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
1,468
after skimming through your original post, i have a few thoughts to impart ...

the color range is wide, the further down the color scale one goes, in white diamonds

for instance, the entire colorless range of d, e, f combined is narrower than the color range of say, an i color range, and it gets wider with each color grade, downwards.

4 carats is a substantial amount of diamond material and seeing tint in a j color is highly highly likely

from personal, first hand, experience. i have seen a agsl 000 super ideal j color 3.5 carat by one of the vendors. it was inarguably, visibly tinted, without the need to place it against a higher colored stone.

but with all that shared, color is rather subjective.

personally, i do not forgo color, cut, clarity for carat weight. i don't know if it's just me but i feel a round brilliant looks most spectacular in a higher color than a warmer color
 

Sexypiggy

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
77
Since you have a 4.5 OEC, I think DSS will set in for your MRB if you don't get 4 carats. :devil:

Aaaah!!! Hahaha I think an upgrade policy is a must

Since you already have a 4+ ct OEC, I would think it would be nice not to have both diamonds virtually the exact same size. On a size 3 finger, a 3 ct stone will look very large!!! I wear a 5.5 and tried on a superideal 5 ct one time, and it literally covered the entire width of my finger and didn't look good, in my opinion.

Stones over 4 cts are never plentiful in superideal cuts, and now supplies are lower than usual with all the shutdowns. So you likely will have to either go for a 3ct now or wait and get a 4 ct later on. I would not recommend going down to J color. I can definitely see the tint and less brightness in a J than in higher colors.

That’s a very good point. When DSS sets in I can just put the OEC on. Btw I LOVE the stone in your avatar, it looks dreamy

after skimming through your original post, i have a few thoughts to impart ...

the color range is wide, the further down the color scale one goes, in white diamonds

for instance, the entire colorless range of d, e, f combined is narrower than the color range of say, an i color range, and it gets wider with each color grade, downwards.

4 carats is a substantial amount of diamond material and seeing tint in a j color is highly highly likely

from personal, first hand, experience. i have seen a agsl 000 super ideal j color 3.5 carat by one of the vendors. it was inarguably, visibly tinted, without the need to place it against a higher colored stone.

but with all that shared, color is rather subjective.

personally, i do not forgo color, cut, clarity for carat weight. i don't know if it's just me but i feel a round brilliant looks most spectacular in a higher color than a warmer color

I think as I get older I am getting slightly more color sensitive! I have H,I,J and K diamonds and they used to all look white to me. Now I can visibly see a tint in the J and K. It doesn’t really bother me but I never noticed it before. I can also see a tint in the I color stone maybe 5% of the time but I never noticed it before either.

I think I will change my requirements and go slightly lower in size and higher in color to “future proof” things. I don’t know how to change the thread topic :lol:

I wonder if there is a huge difference between G and H 3 carat stones. There is so little inventory to compare
 

Dee Dee

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2020
Messages
24
Have you considered getting an I stone with faint to medium blue fluorescence. This is a brief video on fluorescence which could make a stone look whiter. I like to use Tiffany’s as a guide. They don’t sell diamonds past I color and don’t sell diamonds beyond medium blue fluorescence. For your price point I’d prefer to see the diamond in person and compare the colors difference or buy shy of 4 carats. A 3.80 will look like a 4 but you may observe the difference if you go down to a 3.5.

I was under the impression that fluorescence would cheapen the quality and value of the stone but after much research, savvy diamond buyers don’t rule it out and benefit from the discount.

 

LLJsmom

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
10,393
Aaaah!!! Hahaha I think an upgrade policy is a must



That’s a very good point. When DSS sets in I can just put the OEC on. Btw I LOVE the stone in your avatar, it looks dreamy



I think as I get older I am getting slightly more color sensitive! I have H,I,J and K diamonds and they used to all look white to me. Now I can visibly see a tint in the J and K. It doesn’t really bother me but I never noticed it before. I can also see a tint in the I color stone maybe 5% of the time but I never noticed it before either.

I think I will change my requirements and go slightly lower in size and higher in color to “future proof” things. I don’t know how to change the thread topic :lol:

I wonder if there is a huge difference between G and H 3 carat stones. There is so little inventory to compare

Maybe this will help. Left is 3 ct H, middle 1.2 ct G, right is 2.65 ct F. All AGS. 000. Only F is super ideal. In some lighting environments you can see the difference between the F and H. To me the difference was not huge. In some places you can barely see the difference in color. I also feel more color sensitive and am preferring high colors as I get older. I returned the F. If you want a more noticeable difference from an H, I would at least go to an F.
B8A27F9A-6F0F-466D-8FB3-63B525A1EB0B.jpeg 473F4DD6-22A1-4704-91DC-32337B41B18D.jpeg 2EEFB134-354E-4568-8F5F-641A8D82861E.jpeg
 

AllAboardTheBlingTrain

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
976
Just a suggestion, not sure if you’ve already considered it, but since you have a 4.5ct OEC, have you considered a fancy shape instead of an MRB? That way you’ll get a different shape so it will be markedly different from your OEC (something like an EC or pear would be great in my opinion since they are both elongated, EC will also give you a different type of light return) and they have great finger coverage!
 

Big Fat Facets

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
1,468
I think as I get older I am getting slightly more color sensitive! I have H,I,J and K diamonds and they used to all look white to me. Now I can visibly see a tint in the J and K. It doesn’t really bother me but I never noticed it before. I can also see a tint in the I color stone maybe 5% of the time but I never noticed it before either.

I think I will change my requirements and go slightly lower in size and higher in color to “future proof” things. I don’t know how to change the thread topic :lol:

I wonder if there is a huge difference between G and H 3 carat stones. There is so little inventory to compare

i have this theory ... that as a result of aging, our vision becomes less clear, crisp and vivid .... color and tint become inherently more visible.

generally, when we rid ourselves of the finite minutiae of detail, we see tint and color more acutely. lots of times in art, we squint to blur our vision to better take in the composition as a whole, without the pesky details.

in the past i attributed seeing tint as a result of spending, enough, time with a particular stone. i still believe there is no better way to familiarize oneself with a stone. but there is alot to be said about how our vision evolves in the form of natural ageing ...

yes, agsl 000 branded ideal/super ideal (round brilliant, old european, antique cushion/old mine) stock and inventory is much less plentiful than non super ideal/ideal. but cut is far far far superior than then the generic makes. and if you are in a position to select from branded agsl 000 ... then its a great place to be
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,703
Just catching up and I had missed your sweet compliment on my diamond in my avatar picture! Thank you so much! I will say that I still would love to have a superideal cut even though I have an old style cut round. So I truly get the desire to have two different kinds of rounds! That one is I color and it was the highest color available for a few years. I finally gave in and went with it because it doesn't have much tint and I loved the cut. But honestly, I love a modern round in higher colors than old cuts. There's just something about a bright white stone. While it would be nice to have F-G, I do have Whiteflash ACA studs in H color that look nice and bright on my ears thanks to the great cut.

As far as your question goes about G and H color, I think it always depends on whether the stone is in the high, medium, or low range of the color grade. A low G might be hard to differentiate from a high H, for example. I try to get stones that are in the high to medium range of their grade, and vendors will put stones next to others to try and help you get the best colors of the selection. When looking at stones in the 3 ct range, I think the pricing would be very high on G color. Whiteflash has a few H and I color stones over 3 cts, and even the H stones are around $10k higher than the I color stones! So I personally would focus on H to see if the price differential is worth it to you.
 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Top 3-Stone Engagement Ring 2021 Trends
    Top 3-Stone Engagement Ring 2021 Trends
    Top 5 Honeymoon Destinations 21/22
    Top 5 Honeymoon Destinations 21/22
    Top Luxury Classic Pieces
    Top Luxury Classic Pieces

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top