Help with Ruby Quest

[Race]

Hi all,

Well, I have a fairly typical situation that I hope you folks can help change from a sad story into a yarn with a fairy tale ending.

My girlfriend and I have been together for a while now and I would very much like to ''pop the question''. The problem has been the Ring.

My sweetie is a history major. Particularly European Medieval history. As such, she mentioned that should she ever be lucky enough to be offered an engagement ring, she would like it to be a Ruby instead of a Diamond. Apparently the very well-to-do of that time period used Rubies as the primary engagement offering. (And as an aside, if the Ruby changed color over the years it was considered a bad omen for marriage and of course, fake.)

So, a Ruby. OK cool, no problem. Further hinting gleaned that she was aware of what a higher quality stone she had in mind. Burmese. Pigeon Blood Red in color. So I started the search. To my surprise, finding a stone of a decent size with those attributes was proving rather difficult. Not knowing of this site''s forum community I was relying primarily on Google searches to turn up results. I''d periodically check the major hits for loose stones and generally not find anything. I specifically avoided eBay.

Months go by and I''m starting to get a little impatient (trouble sign #1). I run across a 3.02ct ruby, origin Burma, color listed as Pigeon Blood Red. Price listed on GemNY.com: $6,000. Well, well that neatly fit all my parameters and was actually less than I''d planned on spending on the stone. Without doing any more digging (unconsciously afraid I''d find a problem?) I bought the stone.

It arrives promptly with papers from a Gem lab in NY. The papers list the retail replacement cost at $36,000. Um, what? Alarm bells start ringing softly. I look up the lab''s website, then Google it. Low and behold, there are posts on various forums (maybe even this one) that disparage this place''s veracity and consequently any store that would use them. Enter Mr. Richard Sherwood, Gemologist.

I find Richard through again searching the web (what did we do before Google?). He''s an independent Gemologist here in Sarasota, FL. I set up an appointment to have the stone appraised. First off, Richard is fantastic. If you ever need something looked at, I highly recommend him. Thorough, courteous and just a pleasure to work with. http://www.sarasotagemlab.com He goes over the stone extremely thoroughly, including doing a spectrum-analysis to determine the country of origin.

What do we find? The only bit of good news is that its not Beryllium treated. OK fine. The Ruby is not from Burma, its from Madagascar. Ouch. You can probably see where this is going from here just from that statement. The color is not Pigeon Blood (not enough Chromium in the stone) its a deep red with some orange and purple. The rest of the attributes are fairly typical for a Native Cut ruby of its type. About middle of the road in quality. Richard''s retail replacement cost estimate? $4,500. Double ouch.

Well the good news is, since I paid with a credit card I should get my money back. I''m out Richard''s fee and the money to ship the stone. Not horribly painful, but certainly a lesson well learned.

So, now what? I''ve done some additional poking around, but I''m feeling once bitten, twice shy and could use some help. Richard mentioned this community specifically and the nice people in it. So here I am. Here is what I''m looking for:

Burmese Ruby
The color needs to be very nice. A Pigeon''s Blood Red that burns in the sunlight.
I''m looking for something over 2cts if possible.
I''m willing to go all the way up to $20,000 for just the stone if necessary. Less would be nice, but I''m seeing that just might not be possible. Any advice on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
I''m not too choosy on cut. The heart-shaped fancy cut would be about the only one I would flatly refuse. A bit cheesy for an engagement ring, imo.
All things equal, round cut would be preferred.

What do we think? And thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

[Indylady]

For a stone that is already cut, check out Gary at Dutton's Diamonds (might be under budget/too small, ask him for inventory that's not listed), Cherry Picked, Richard Wise, and Pala Gems (you'll need to go through a jeweler, try Wink Jones from Winfield's).

To have ruby cut, talk to Gene at Precision Gem and Jeff at White's. I know for a fact that both of these guys have ruby rough.

Pigeon's blood- its a term that's coined and a label used often to try to increase the value of a stone. Figure out what color you like best. To do this, try to describe in terms of....color. Do you like purplish-reds? Pure reds? Figure out what kind of color you want. Pigeon's blood can also be subjective. Do a search on Pricescope of rubies and this term, and you'll see a lot of expert comments.

Burmese ruby- possible, but importing Burmese rubies has been banned by the US government so you'll have to find someone it already in their inventory. Look for threads on Pricescope about origin and quality; there are amazing Burmese rubies, and ugly Burmese rubies. There's a saying out there by a gemologist I don't recall that basically goes, "the finest Kashmir sapphire I ever saw was from Madagascar" etc. I'm sure you get the point by now. Look into rubies from Winza, Tanzania...there are some very pretty rubies coming out Winza right now.

Burns in the sunlight- You want florescence. Type this into Pricescope's search engine and you should come across a thread by Flygirl with a Burmese ruby from Gary Dutton. Gary sent her a picture of the ruby fluorescing red next to a diamond fluorescing blue. Very neat shot.

Lastly, good job staying away from BE treatments! Also be wary of lead/glass filling, also called fissure filling or fracture filling.

 

[Fly Girl]

Hello Race, and welcome to PriceScope.

I''d give Richard Wise a call, and go from there. Link The man has an eye for a great ruby.

Your sweetheart will be thrilled.

 

[Largosmom]

Wow, those are gorgeous stones! Laura

 

[ma re]

I''m sure you''ve done a lot of reading, but in case you''re interested to do more, here are two good articles, HERE and HERE. You obviously know the importance of certificates, as well as feeling confident about the vendor, unfortunatelly you''ve learned from experience - thankfully not much harm was done. There''s a saying about gems that says that it''s not important what you buy, but who you buy it from; I think that''s a good advice. I''d also say that origin shouldn''t be a priority, there are beautiful gems from numerous locations.

Now, there are some "tricks" you should know, cause you might find something better for less if you remember them. Generally speaking (but it''s not written in stone), different cuts have different proportions, so some are deeper than others. And since depth means extra weight, and extra weight means extra cost, some shapes like pears, marquises or trillions might get you a larger stone with the same weight, due to the fact that they''re generally more shallow. Of course, you should make sure that this shallower stone doesen''t wash out the color, cause depth of color is (at least in theory) directly related to the depth of cut. But there are stones with nice color in all cuts, so keep your options opened. I wouldn''t say that a round would be the best option, not just because it''s quite deep, but also because brilliant cut is designed for diamonds, so it brings out qualities that are not the best features of rubies, like high brilliance and dispersion of light. Also, strong brilliance (i.e. strong light return) of rounds can wash out the color (but it doesen''t have to), so it''s something to consider.

Another important aspect is the setting. The way you choose to set the stone can make it''s color change in tone (darkness/lightness), and to a degree, in hue (color). In fact, experienced jewellers claim that appearance of a gemstone can be significantly influenced (improved) by the right choice of setting. In the simplest of terms, bezel setting can make a slightly lighter stone look a bit darker. When it comes to colors, a slightly purplish-red stone set in yellow gold will look more purely red, while setting the same stone in white gold probably won''t influence it''s color much. An orangy-red stone set in yellow gold will look more orange and less red, so such a stone would probably benefit from white metal.

All in all, good luck in finding The Ring, and make sure it''s pwecious

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I second Richard Wise - his rubies are to die for. Pala might have something as well. I don''t think I have seen LembeckGems offering rubies, but I think you should contact him anyway, as he deals with very fine gems.

What about a bright red spinel, such as the Black Prince''s Ruby? This is just a joke, as the term Ruby was used for pretty much any bright red (or pink, since "pink sapphire" is a modern distinction), durable gem. Many medieval "rubies" are actually spinels.

 

[morecarats]

There are dealers who specialize in investment-grade gems and provide proper AGL certification for everything they sell. One of the well-known dealers in pre-embargo Burmese ruby is Robert Genis of National Gemstone in Tucson. He also publishes the Gemstone Forecaster, a respected newsletter for gemstone investors.

You could also consult some of the high-end jewelers, such as Graff Diamonds or Moussaieff Jewellers. For the amount of money you are considering spending you should start by looking at some of the finer stones in the market so you can understand the quality differences. There are actually not that many fine Burmese rubies over 2 carats on the market at any given time.

Please be aware that there are two main sources of ruby in Burma: Mogok and Mong Hsu. The Mogok deposit is the source of the finest Burmese ruby, but has not produced stones over 1 carat for quite some time. The Mong Hsu deposit, first discovered in the 1980''s, is huge but the rubies are considerably lower quality and require heat treatment (often with fluxes). You would not want to pay a top price for a Mong Hsu ruby.

 

[chrono]

Race,
Welcome to Pricescope and I am so happy that you found Richard and the forum. Firstly, I’d like to express how sorry I am that your first experience with coloured gemstones was not pleasant. That said, I’m glad that you are able to get a refund and the chance to re-do your search for the right ruby. When you mentioned burns in the sunlight, having red fluorescence will help and the UV in sunlight will play up this characteristic. A good place to start is Palagems. Your local jeweller can call it in or Gary Dutton at www.diamondexpert.com is who I recommend. He offers among the lowest markups and has experience “interpreting” their pictures so you won’t waste money shipping the stone back and forth. Pigeon’s blood usually means a very rich highly saturated red with a hint of blue, as the colour of fresh blood connotes. It’s definitely not purplish red. Rubies from Winza tend to have more of a purple undertone but pure reds are still possible.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Race,

I am deep into ruby, and I got to tell you 3 carat high quality certified Burma I do not see often. If so, I try to buy it.

Also, I am careful with the grade "pigeon-blood". There is so much pigeon-blood out there, it gets slippery.

Secondly, a real untreated 3 carat best color clean Burmese will not be available under 10k/carat, and even with 20+k/carat you will need a good eye and some experience. If you have 50k/carat you might get there in high-end off-line retail.

Unless you up your budget, I really recommend the new finds in Tanzania and Mozambique. You will get a terrific ruby for (under) 10k/carat.

 

[movie zombie]

is she aware that what many thought were rubies way back when in the dim reaches of history were actually....gasp....spinels or garnets?!

richard wise is high end and worth every penny. you''re buying not just his stone but his experience....which is considerable.

if you haven''t read his book yet, you may want to since you''re headed down the ruby road.

you got lucky and had a great appraiser. many are not so lucky.

give richard wise a call. he''s got things in his vault that have never been posted at his website. tell him what you''re looking for and your price range. he''ll be honest and tell you if your budget is realistic. he may actually have just what you''re looking for in that vault of his. besides he''s just plain fun to talk with!

mz

ps ed was very right re the term "pidgeon" being a very slippery slope........as you found out with the appraisal.

 

[Stone Hunter]

Welcome to PS!! Glad you found us before making a non returnable purchase. There is a wealth of information on PS.

To find the cool photo of a Ruby Fluor next to a diamond search Fly Girl Ruby! Here it is below, so cool.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Race,

Of course it is bad if a ruby is called ''pigeon blood Burma'' and the it turns out to be off-color Madam ruby.

However, the price tags you got there may be quite close to reality, depending on where you stand.

That Madam ruby may be 4k in retail when you go on a trade show or go to Bangkok. But that would demand some deep know how, and time and travel cost, and chances are you get ripped of with no return policy if you don''t have connections.

You might even get the ruby for 2k in Madagascar but that would be a hell of a trip and very unlikely to succeed without risking your skin.

The very same gem delivered confi to your sofa may well be 6k, with the web company making a fair 50% mark-up.

And, finally, when set into $500 worth of gold and some fancy name on it, it may be 40k and much more at a high-end jeweler.

I think you might have gotten a fair-enough deal from GemNY if the ruby was untreated and just OK quality, but they just should not claim the thing is 36k and from Burma when they sell it for 6 and it is from Madam.

 

[Race]

Wow I''m totally blown away by the responses. Thank you all so very much!

I have spoken to Mr. Richard Wise (neat guy) and we''re looking into some options. The prices Mr. Bristol have stated are indicative of what the market has to offer so I''m trying to be flexible in that regard.

In response to Mr. Bristol''s comment on GemNY''s price. While I agree the price, while probably a little high given the cut quality (didn''t go into detail in the original post there, but its a barely over Commercial grade Native cut.) the real point is entirely emotional. This stone is intended to be set in an engagement ring. There can''t be a basic deception in something like this. It colors the whole concept and symbolism of the offering.

The gemologist I saw had an interesting suggestion: take that stone and have it cut by a master jeweler. I toyed with the idea for about two seconds. Even if the stone ended up a carat smaller, but looking brilliant it still wouldn''t be appropriate for the setting with which it is intended.

Please understand, I''m not trying to be argumentative. I see your points and your experience and wisdom on this topic is something I admire and am in awe of (all of you, really). I just feel I need to make my position clear on the whole thing. The fact that I''ve already been pointed towards a resource as excellent as Mr. Wise has already proven this online community to be THE go to resource for gem knowledge.

I thank you all, yet again. If and when I reach my goal I''ll post an update.

 

[movie zombie]

i''m excited for you! you''re in good hands.

mz

 

[elmo]

I'm a little late to this party and pretty much agree with all the advice. Some random thoughts:

Definitely talk with Gary Dutton and Richard Wise. Gary's not only a great guy, if his suppliers have this, it will cost quite a bit less than from Richard. But Richard will probably be able to pull out multiple compelling options from his own inventory which in its own way is priceless.

If I was looking for ruby now, I'd also heed Ed's advice and check out the Winza / Tanzanian material. You'd probably get a beautiful unheated 2 carat stone for less than nice heated Mong Hsu same size. Ed has a couple like this on his website.

Not quite a ruby but if I was looking for one I still might consider this, http://www.spectralgems.net/img/Corundum/Fancy/Lg-Fuschia-Sapphire_3_60ctCushion.jpg. I think Roger has said that this one would have been called ruby in some earlier time. Killer stone either way.

Marc Sarosi at Africagems has access to nice certed Mong Hsu material, maybe worth chatting with him.

Good luck, you'll need that and a lot of money

.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Date: 12/7/2009 4:01:07 PM
Author:Race
Hi all,

So I started the search. To my surprise, finding a stone of a decent size with those attributes was proving rather difficult. Not knowing of this site''s forum community I was relying primarily on Google searches to turn up results. I''d periodically check the major hits for loose stones and generally not find anything.

Which, again, shows us what a poor job google is doing sometimes.

How can it happen, that somebody searches quality rubies and does not come across this place (or mine, or richards for that matter) before he buys?

Try to find ''untreated turquoise'' and ‘untreated topaz’ and you will end up with holiday resorts, escort services and if you are lucky with bad ebay offers (treated ones of course).

 

[SB621]

I''m glad you made contact with Richard....I''m on the hunt for an emerald and I hope to go through him for it. if he does not work out- or you are still looking for options i would contact Pala though....as already mentioned you need to go through a jeweler to do so.

Mr. Bristol- I''m curious...what is your website? Do you mind posting?

 

[Fly Girl]

Date: 12/10/2009 6:11:44 PM
Author: Sarahbear621
I''m glad you made contact with Richard....I''m on the hunt for an emerald and I hope to go through him for it. if he does not work out- or you are still looking for options i would contact Pala though....as already mentioned you need to go through a jeweler to do so.

Mr. Bristol- I''m curious...what is your website? Do you mind posting?

Sarahbear - Ed Bristol''s website is Wildfishgems. Link He specializes in untreated gemstones.

 

[Gailey]

I suggest you take a look at this ruby, as shown by Jeff Hunt on his website. It''s cut by Roger Dery, considered by many to be lapidary royalty.

 

[Indylady]

Oh..my..word. Gailey, now that is a ruby.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Uh, aaah, yes, that is nice, if unheated that should cross $100K easy.

p.s. thanks flygirl

 

[Race]

Even heated I think that one''s going to be out of my ballpark. I''m gonna find out though!

 

[movie zombie]

sigh.......please let us know what you find out!

mz

 

[Gailey]

Date: 12/10/2009 10:14:58 PM
Author: szh07
Oh..my..word. Gailey, now that is a ruby.

Isn''t it. I might even consider parting with a kidney for this one.

 

[LD]

Date: 12/11/2009 2:08:37 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 12/10/2009 10:14:58 PM
Author: szh07
Oh..my..word. Gailey, now that is a ruby.

Isn''t it. I might even consider parting with a kidney for this one.

Point me to the nearest hospital ......................... !

W

W

 

[Gailey]

Date: 12/11/2009 2:27:12 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 12/11/2009 2:08:37 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 12/10/2009 10:14:58 PM
Author: szh07
Oh..my..word. Gailey, now that is a ruby.

Isn''t it. I might even consider parting with a kidney for this one.

Point me to the nearest hospital ......................... !

W

W

I know! Hell, I might even sleep with Tiger Woods for this one!

 

[brandy_z28]

Date: 12/11/2009 2:49:16 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 12/11/2009 2:27:12 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 12/11/2009 2:08:37 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 12/10/2009 10:14:58 PM
Author: szh07
Oh..my..word. Gailey, now that is a ruby.

Isn''t it. I might even consider parting with a kidney for this one.

Point me to the nearest hospital ......................... !

W

W

I know! Hell, I might even sleep with Tiger Woods for this one!

MIGHT?! Is there a list? Sign me up, either one I''m in!

 

[Novel]

Date: 12/11/2009 2:49:16 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 12/11/2009 2:27:12 PM



W

W

I know! Hell, I might even sleep with Tiger Woods for this one!

Best thing I''ve read all day! I didn''t know there was a prize for that!

 

[Arcadian]

that ruby is something else!

(i''m not even big on rubies!)


-A

 

[Edward Bristol]

The tiger story aside, what is the price tag on that ruby? Does anybody know?