Help with Diamond Grading! (Long Story)

[chrono]

I have posted a little bit about my EC in the not too distant past. I have an uncertified 0.72 carat EC bought from a local but quite reputable B&M nearly 10 years ago. Being an uninformed buyer then, I did not insist on a cert and just accepted their word that it was truly 0.72 carats, H colour, VS1 and a "very good" cut.

Fast forward 9 years later, I got the stone reset into a mounting that I really liked (horizontal vs the usual vertical) and had it appraised for insurance purposes while it was loose before remounting at a different local but also quite reputable B&M. The appraisal came back as a H/I colour and SI1!

So who I believe now? Both B&M have a certified AGS and GIA gemologist respectively. Was I sold something lower that what I expected? So I called the original B&M where I bought my EC and talked to the gemologist and owner. They still had my sale record on their computer where it was clearly listed that I bought a 0.72 carat EC, H colour, VS1. When I told them about my appraisal showing the stone listed as a H/I, SI1, they were concerned and wanted to see the stone. I brought it in the very same day and showed them my receipt which has no information whatsoever except for the sale price and lot number (which matches their computer records).

Being that this was nearly 10 years ago, they were unable to find any other paperwork on my EC. They said every stone they sell comes with a GIA cert and I should have gotten one. I explained that I was a very inexperienced buyer and didn't know anything about certs and therefore did not think it unusual to get nothing else other than my new EC and sales receipt. The owner then removed the EC from the mounting (with my permission) and took a good look at the stone and compared it to 2 other stones in his store; a VS2 and a VVS1). He showed me what I should expect to see in these different clarities and I think my stone should have been graded a VS2, not the VS1 I was led to believe. He then claimed how the grading has gotten tighter over the past 10 years and what was a VS1 will probably now be graded a VS2. Is this true or is he feeding me some BS story? He also told me that even with a Master set of stones, grading colour is subjective to the grader/appraiser, thus his H rating and the appraised H/I rating from elsewhere. Am I being led again?

In any case, he apologized for the fact that I never received any certificate with the purchase of my EC and offered to get it certified at his expense. He offered a EGL certification which will take a few weeks or a GIA certification which will take a few months. Having heard on Pricescope that GIA has stricter standards, I opted for the GIA. When I brought up the GIA vs EGL standards, the owner claimed that EGL is getting better and shouldn't make any difference. How true this statement may be, I have no clue. Will grading and recertifying my EC really take that many months? He said I may not have my stone back until the end of the year if I chose the GIA route. We did make a sketch of the inclusions and measured it to make sure I will recognize my stone when it gets back into my hands.

That said, if the GIA cert comes back with a H colour and VS1 grading, all is well but what should I do if it comes back as an I colour, VS2 or even an SI1? Do I have any recourse? What can I and should I ask for then? I cannot upgrade my stone unless I spend 50% more (double the original purchase price) and all his stones have gone up in cost so much over the past 10 years that paying twice my purchase price will get me exactly the same stone that I currently have! He did offer to give me a special price if I upgrade and if my stone isn't graded as what he sold me but what if I am not ready to upgrade?

At the very least I supposed I'll get a GIA certificate out of all these. Again the owner claimed recertifying the stone will cost him hundreds of dollars, but as it is his fault in the first place, of course I expect him to pay for that and he agreed to it. What else should I expect and what can I do? Please advise. I am very confused.

This same owner also said the cut on my EC is very good, and this was backed up by the appraisor who reset my EC. I know GIA certs do not have all the info on cut so do I have to take this at their word?

Very confused and anxious,
Chrono

 

[GLudlow]

Just out of curiosity, why are you so worried about the grading on a stone you've been happy with for ten years? Does it not sparkle as much, or can you see huge cracks in the face?

Take a step back and look at the situation. Diamond grading is 100% invented by humans. It's our coarse way of trying to give a measurement to beauty, something that can't truly be measured. It is, therefore, highly subjective and will almost certainly be different depending on who is the judge.

I'd say that the place you bought the jewel is being very fair to offer to get it recertified for free.

And finally, why are you worried about "upgrading"? Are you only doing this because the stone might be SI1, or are you "trading in" your stone for a bigger one no matter what and you want to get more for it?

 

[chrono]

Well, after so many years, it just seems as though my diamond doesn't sparkle as much. I am very happy with the size and with fingers at size 4.5, anything larger is too overpowering; hence the reluctance to upgrade. Yes, I agree it is very fair for the original vendor to recert my diamond for free. If I do upgrade, it will only be because it is an SI1 (I am too much of a clarity snob for ECs. I can live with an SI1 in RBs though) and for a better cut EC if the cert comes back as not what I expected.

The deals is this: I was sold a H, VS1 stone by this vendor. What if the GIA cert comes back saying I was sold an I, SI1 stone? What then? That means I overpaid for the stone, right? What do I do then?

 

[valeria101]

Were any inclusions visible in that stone?

Was the price right for a H-SI? Sometimes diamonds are sold like that: at some reasonable price for what they are, but presented as better in grading terms ( = stone that looks right for what the buyer can grasp, but would not stand grading scrutiny as well). The difference would be that between a rip off and bad-taste advertising

At least among current PS listings, 0.75 EC, H-VS1 go from 2k to 3k (GIA certs). One EGL stone gets 5 quotes straight in the middle of the range... Then, one I-SI (same other specs, GIA) gets several quotes around $1500.

I suppose uncertified stones are usually discounted. So from the best to the worst expected result of official grading your stone, there seems to be about 1k difference - I would not be happy to loose them on the street, of course, but diamond prices jump that distance with soooo much nonchalance.

Did you agree with your jeweler on what should be done after re-grading ? maybe get a H-VS1 from him. I can just guess not many customers would go your route. Part of the business, I suppose.

Months for a GIA cert ? I kind of doubt. And they weren’t that expensive either. Maybe GIA's business is really booming, but this just does not sound right. Those Dosiers are supposed to be fast.

I thought somewhere Garry mentioned that GIA's grading got more tollerant (not less) of inclusions.

 

[pinkflamingo]

>The deals is this: I was sold a H, VS1 stone by this vendor. What if the GIA cert comes back saying I was sold an I, SI1 stone? What then? That means I overpaid for the stone, right? What do I do then?




Personally, and please do not take this the wrong way, but 10 years is way too long to be expecting financial compensation... if that is what you are looking for. If you bought a stone without certification then I think you need accept the blame yourself. the jeweler is being more than nice to pay for the certification- 10 years later. I understand that you are upset, but I also think it is rather unfair to expect anything at this point.

 

[fire&ice]

Through wear a stone may become a grade worse in clarity. 10 years is a long time.

 

[chrono]

Yes, 10 years is a long time ago, but I still feel ripped off at the thought that the stone I supposedly bought was a GIA certified H, VS1 which I never received the cert from the vendor and could now end up being recertified as a I, SI1 after finding out about this from an appraisal that was done just a few months ago.

PF, are you saying that I should just let this go? If the certification came back at I, SI1 I should take this as a hard lesson learned for not pushing for a cert which every diamond sold by this vendor automatically comes with one? It will be a bitter pill to swallow, but if that is all I can do, I don't want to be unreasonable.

Val, there were plenty of inclusions under the microscope: a transparent feather and a dark patch near one of the prongs. Eye clean to my eyes though. I am still bummed to think that all this while I was happy thinking my EC is a VS1 when it might really be a SI1. What's worse, the price isn't very good. I paid $2.7K for it 10 years ago. He showed me some of his other ECs with GIA certs and cuts in the 1B range, 0.74 E VS2 for $4.9K and 0.72 F VVS1 for almost $6K. These seem terribly expensive, even more so when compared to what I paid 10 years ago and what is now listed on PS. Granted the B&M prices will be more but have the diamond prices gone up that much? My stone was supposed to have been certified but I never received the paperwork with the purchase, hence the owner's apology and recertification at his expense.

The jeweler and I have not agreed on anything beyond getting this stone certified by GIA. If it comes back as H VS1, I will be floating away on clouds. We agreed to take this one step at a time. If it comes back as something else, then we will sit down and talk about it. I would love to get a H VS1 from him if the stone came back as something else, but isn't that asking for too much? What are my options then?

 

[chrono]

F&I, this is the first time I have heard that a diamond may become a grade worse in clarity over time. Wow! I hardly even wear the ring (only for special occasions a few times a year). It spent most of its past 10 years in the dark recesses if my safe deposit box.

It seems like majority of those who have replied are of the opinion that too many years have passed and there is nothing else I can do beyond what I have done. Is that the message I am getting? That I should be satisfied with getting it recertified and be happy with whatever the new GIA cert might say?

Chrono

 

[Hest88]

For once, I disagree with F&I. Unless you did some major damage to it I don't see how it could have acquired enough additional inclusions to warrant a lower grade.

Personally, I agree with the majority that 10 years is too long to ask for compensation. I'm a little confused, though. If it was originally a GIA why would they need to re-certify it? Does the GIA throw out or archive its 10 year old certs so that it would be impossible to acquire a duplicate?

In your place, I'd get the GIA cert, then compare it what your current appraisal says, or bring your stone into another appraiser and have them compare the stone with the cert. Then, if you find that your stone doesn't match the GIA cert due to some reason that can't be pinned down to damage over the last 10 years, then you can see if you want to pursue something with your jeweler. 10 years, though, is an awfully long time to keep something, enjoy it, and then have regrets later.

 

[strmrdr]

The law if I remember right they only have to be within 2 color grades and 2 clarity grades to be considered legal.
So it could come back a j/si1 and still be legal.
Plus the statute of limitations is uauly 3-5 years on this kind of stuff in most states so even if im off on the law for clarity/color you may have no recourse anyway.

It sounds like he is going out of his way to make you happy so keep it friendly because you might not have a legal leg to stand on.

Note: im not a lawyer and this is not legal advice consult an attorney licenced in your area for legal advice.

 

[hoorray]

I tend to agree with the rest that 10 years is too much time gone by to expect compensation. If you haven't been seeing the inclusions all of these years, the Si1 grade is just mental. And, GIA certs are a semi-recent thing. None of my jewelery from 10+ years ago has certs with them. I think they were doing the certs 10 years ago, but they might not have been common, the way they are now.

I think you have to wait and see what the cert comes back as, and then decide whether you can live with it or not. You've lived with it for a long time, with the only complaint being brillance. Neither color or clarity affect brillance. It sounds to me as if your jeweler is being really good about trying to work with you after all this time.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Well, Chrono, first of all, you should cool down. Your avatar looks very fiery, and you probably are very anxious, but you should step back and look at the bigger picture.

At this point in time, you are basing your anxiousness on the expertise of one appraiser. Now, this person might be very experienced and knowledgeable, but in the end, the decision on clarity is still a human decision.

The difference in colour grade is not a difference. If your appraiser says H/I, it means that it can be graded either way, and this depends entirely on uncertainties.

The difference in clarity is another subject, but I will give you a true story, which happened to me the other day. We purchased a 0.78-Ct-stone, graded by HRD (a reputable Antwerp lab) as G-VS2. We re-cut it in order to meet our brand-requirements and if finished a 0.71 Ct.

We had it graded by GIA, and it returned not a G-VS2, but a H-VS1. So far, so good, the colour is G-H, and the clarity is a high VS2, possibly VS1.

Since we are switching our business to AGS-grading reports, I sent this same stone to AGS last week, mostly out of curiosity what their grading would be. Yesterday, I received their first result: a G-SI1.

Again, so far, so good, I am now asking AGS to re-check the clarity-grade, and they will most probably adapt to VS2.

What I am trying to say, all the people involved in these labs (HRD, GIA, AGS) are supposed to be highly professional, experienced graders. Still, you can see the difference in their grading.

Therefore, take it easy, your appraiser made you aware of a possible problem, your jeweler is extremely co-operative in helping you ease your mind and in looking for a solution, and you should be very happy with this situation. I would even say that if he is so co-operative, he definitely is the kind of person who will not let you walk away unhappy. From your story, I can already feel that I can trust him, so you should too.

Nevertheless, he makes some errors in judging the GIA-cost and delay. But I suppose that he buys his stones with a report included, and he is not personally familiar with sending in stones for grading. Nothing really to worry about.

Live long,

 

[glitterata]

I agree with Paul. From your description of the situation, it sounds as though your jeweler treated you and continues to treat you in an honorable way. The appraiser's opinion is not all that different from the stats you were given ten years ago, when you bought the diamond, and it sounds like a very nice one. You've been happy with it for all this time. It's now "worth" twice what you paid for it. Grading is subjective, as Paul described. It really doesn't sound as if anyone tried to cheat you here. In fact, that your jeweler is even willing to listen to your side of things after ten years speaks to his patience and integrity.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 6/2/2004 11:06:36 AM Hest88 wrote:

For once, I disagree with F&I. Unless you did some major damage to it I don't see how it could have acquired enough additional inclusions to warrant a lower grade.

---

True, the stone wouldn't acquire additional inclusions -but chrono mentioned that there is a feather - they can spread (that's why I am so freaky about them - saw it happen). If the stone is not worn on a regular basis, then this may not be the case. But, worthy of mention.

I am amazed that the jeweler is willing to work w/ you -let alone still has some records.

And, you are expecting the worse when you really have no basis for it except the appraisal of one person. Grading is a science - but not an exact one. As Paul mentioned, you will have some discrepencies.

Also, I would think that in an EC if you had an SI grade, you would probably see the inclusions w/ your naked eye. Not always, but more probable than a round. But, I'm no expert - just imparting what sounds like common sense.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 6/2/2004 10:45:59 AM chrono wrote:




Val, there were plenty of inclusions under the microscope: a transparent feather and a dark patch near one of the prongs. Eye clean to my eyes though. I am still bummed to think that all this while I was happy thinking my EC is a VS1 when it might really be a SI1. What's worse, the price isn't very good. I paid $2.7K for it 10 years ago.

He showed me some of his other ECs with GIA certs and cuts in the 1B range, 0.74 E VS2 for $4.9K and 0.72 F VVS1 for almost $6K. These seem terribly expensive, even more so when compared to what I paid 10 years ago and what is now listed on PS.

----------------

Were diamonds sold over the net 10 years ago... nope. The prices supposedly went up, but 50%? - again, no.

It seems that you paid 10 years ago towards the higher current PS price for a stone with the claimed specs (H-VS1), so you can get the same stone cheaper today - where's the price increase?

But Paul's post brings the discussion home beautifully - there is no such thing as definitive grading. Buying jewelry is supposed to feel good, right? I am sorry this story turned unpleasant for you.

The E and F color pieces seem like “good money after bad”. But this is MY impression – and it is all about what sounds ok to you at this point.

In your previous posts it seems that you would favor a round stone, maybe you can exchange it without an upgrade?

 

[chrono]

Thank you everyone for your opinions.

Hest, I don't know about the recertifying issue. I am guessing that this has to do with being 10 years later and the original vendor is unable to find their paperwork.

Strmrdr, I didn't know that legally, the stone only had to be within 2 colour or clarity grades. I had always thought that if it says X on the paper, then it should be X physically, not Y. Yes, again the key word is 10 years, and I don't want to be unreasonable but at the same time I feel kind of ripped off, KWIM?

Lop, I agree. That is why I am waiting for the recertification and then decide whether I can live with it or not. I am just concerned about my limited options if I can't live with it.

Paul, your post is very insightful. I guess everyone can sense my tone of anxiousness in my posts. The only reason my avatar is so fiery is because I love to play the old style RPGs (I hope I'm not too hot IRL).

I am just keeping my fingers crossed that my EC comes back at least a H, VS2. I can live with that. Out of curiousity, how much is this certification going to cost and realistically, how long will it take? Any idea?

F&I, can you please explain how a feather can spread? I've never heard of it happening although I have heard about cracks and cavaties which can get larger. I too am surprised that the store still has my record of sale from 10 years ago. I called to find out about their upgrade policy just for the heck of it and while on the phone brought up the subject of the appraisal being different from what this original vendor sold me. This then snowballed into this long story. I suppose I should be grateful that the vendor will even work with me after all these years.

Val, I too feel bad that this whole business turned out rather unpleasant. But I am still hopeful that maybe things will turn all right in the end. At least, I can hope so. The owner made it clear that I cannot exchange it without an upgrade although he will give me "a good price". What that price is, I don't know. I love rounds for pendants and earrings but I like the elegance of an EC for rings. Am I crazy or what?