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Help with Diamond for Engagement Ring

M

MKJ

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2017
Messages
9
I've been reading a lot of the posts on this site, and have found the information incredibly helpful. Unfortunately, I came across the site only after putting down a $1,000 deposit today on a stone for an engagement ring today. I visited a handful of jewelry stores over the past few months, and did a decent amount of research, but admittedly never came to understand proportions. For the most part, I trusted my eye on judging each stones' brilliance, though I made use of several tools I grew comfortable with throughout the process--and did put natural light to use. I wound up going through a wholesaler, which led to my making a quicker decision than I originally anticipated. Only after I got home and started looking over my GIA certificate did I begin digging into all of the #s associated with the stone... So, I'm coming to you all here to find out whether or not I should feel buyer's remorse and, if so, whether I should try to do anything about it (i.e., see if I could switch to a different stone from his reservoir).

The stone I wound up going with was 1.80 carats (Round Brilliant), H color, SI1 clarity, and an excellent (overall) cut (excellent, very good, excellent). The measurements are: 7.74 - 7.78 x 4.88 mm. My concern now after doing more research really stems from the total depth %, but I'll just share all of the proportions and see what you think...

Table size: 57%
Crown height: 16%
Pavilion depth: 43.%
Star length: 50%
Total depth: 62.8%
Crown angle: 36.5
Pavilion angle: 41.0
Girdle thickness: thin - medium (faceted) 3.5%
Lower girdle/half facet length: 80%
Culet: None

I paid $12,824 (pre-tax) for the stone. The stone was eye clean, and its inclusions were faint and along the outside of the table. I'd gone into everything with a budget in mind of $15k and a desire to find a weight somewhere around 1.7-1.8 if possible. I'd seen some really nice diamonds in the 1.65-1.69 range, but ultimately felt the additional size was important. I was happy to come in under budget (should be about $14,200-ish after taxes and adding in the simple setting I'm going with). For those of you with far more experience than I have, do you think I did okay? I'm a bit nervous about the total depth (and also crown + pavilion angles), but of course was being pretty cost conscious throughout this long process. Thanks in advance for your help (fingers crossed).

Diamond Proportions.JPG
 
IMG_3203.PNG

It's bad. See if you can get the wholesaler to find diamonds within these proportions:
Depth 60-62.3
Table 54-58
Pavilion 40.6 to 40.9
Crown 34-35

It is better to go down in size and get a better diamond.
 
How bad are we talking? I will reach out to the wholesaler and see if he'll be willing to get within those proportions, but did like the 1.80 so just curious how bad I did... :-/
 
Do you have a return policy?
If so, return and get your money back.
Then come back to the forum, post your budget and the members will help locate a stone for you that is a stellar performer.
 
MKJ said:
How bad are we talking? I will reach out to the wholesaler and see if he'll be willing to get within those proportions, but did like the 1.80 so just curious how bad I did... :-/
Click to expand...

One good thing is that you did not overpay.

In regards to cut quality, your stone will perform something like this, perhaps significantly worse since the pav angle of your stone is 41.
http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/9205996...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

We recommend a stone that looks and performs like this.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802445.htm?source=pricescope
 
This is all disconcerting, but helpful information. Thank you. I am e-mailing the wholesaler to see what, if anything, he'd be willing to do... I'm going to see if he can just keep the $1k deposit but use it toward a different, to-be-decided-upon stone... I'm hoping to be out the door under $15,000. What parameters should I be working within? I really thought I'd found a quality stone in the 1.80 described above, but it sounds pretty much like I went with a dud. Is it all about proportions? Any chance someone could provide me with a rough estimate as to the size/grade I can likely afford within that budget, that will also offer the desired performance? Regarding desired light performance, was @whitewave on point there? Do I need to stay within those confines re: proportions to get maximum performance?

Thanks again
 
GIA 1.JPG GIA 2.JPG
 
MKJ, if you want the honest truth, I would cut my loss at 1k, and start over with the help of the pricescope community. These guys know their stuff. I ultimately went through WhiteFlash, but there are several vendors that are recommended. Just keep a hard budget minus the 1k, and you'll be incredibly happy in the end.
 
Can you get your $1000 back?
 
I doubt I would be able to get the $1,000 back, but the wholesaler I went through has an inventory of hundreds of diamonds, and I feel like I could still work with him in selecting a different (better performing) stone with the help of this community. I have reached out to the guy, but have not yet heard back. I basically laid out my thoughts to him, and asked him if we could simply apply that deposit toward a different stone. Considering he knows I'm an attorney, and I reneged within 24 hours, I'm hoping he's cool with that approach. So, let's say my budget is $14,250 (x 6% sales tax brings me just over $15,100 total before the setting). What do you think I could do? I'm sure y'all tire of us novice diamond hunters on here, but your guidance is greatly appreciated.
 
Can that 1k be used towards a setting? It might be an awkward conversation, but it would be worth it.
 
I would absolutely get your money back and start fresh with the help of the folks here...It is not like he set the stone for you, not like he custom cut it..you just put a deposit. Since you are an attorney, you should have no problem explaining to the wholesaler some of the consumer protection laws. Also, when you purchase online, you will not pay taxes on the stone (unless the vendor is located in the same state as you are). That is extra savings that could be put toward a setting or a better diamond.
 
I think the real issue is that this guy is seriously overcharging you for the product you are receiving. It doesn't matter what's in his inventory, if the markup is that high. For example, on bluenile (they have brick and mortar shops that you can just walk into in the mall) you can get this https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD08690878 which is slightly larger and but the quality is FAR higher. And it's roughly 11k. Another words, the diamond that you put your deposit down on is absolutely not worth 11k retail (far less wholesale.)

It's best to cut your losses and move on. If you apply the 1k to another diamond in his inventory, you will still be purchasing something you can get 25% cheaper elsewhere retail (that's conservatively speaking.)
 
Offer him $250 for his time and services rendered and move on if you can
 
Btw, I buy from Blue Nile but you do have to avoid plenty of land mines there too.
 
This is the diamond Island posted:
IMG_0452.PNG



It's an SI1 though with no video.... so it remains to be seen if this is one you should consider
 
agreed on all accounts whitewave! I was just offering a worst-case scenario where he loses 1k on his deposit, and still can walk into a local mall with a 12k-12.5k ring (including taxes/setting) with a better diamond and return policy.

I am assuming he is around 16k right now with the "wholesaler."
 
I mean, this is a very promising diamond!
 
re: sales tax - my understanding is that if you have the diamond shipped out of the state that the wholesaler is operating in, you do not pay taxes...so that would solve a bit of a budget issue..
 
They don't charge you taxes.
You are still supposed to pay sales tax in your state, usually on your state income tax form.

I would prefer we leave tax talk out of the discussion for these reasons...
 
MKJ said:
I paid $12,824 (pre-tax) for the stone. The stone was eye clean, and its inclusions were faint and along the outside of the table. I'd gone into everything with a budget in mind of $15k and a desire to find a weight somewhere around 1.7-1.8 if possible. I'd seen some really nice diamonds in the 1.65-1.69 range, but ultimately felt the additional size was important. I was happy to come in under budget (should be about $14,200-ish after taxes and adding in the simple setting I'm going with). For those of you with far more experience than I have, do you think I did okay? I'm a bit nervous about the total depth (and also crown + pavilion angles), but of course was being pretty cost conscious throughout this long process. Thanks in advance for your help (fingers crossed).
Click to expand...
you didn't gain any size b/c this stone is cut too deep at 62.8%
 
MKJ said:
How bad are we talking? I will reach out to the wholesaler and see if he'll be willing to get within those proportions, but did like the 1.80 so just curious how bad I did... :-/
Click to expand...
Ask them to refund your $1K deposit , and
scram.gif
 
Thanks for all the feedback...

Could someone please answer the question I've posed a couple of times above: So, let's say my budget is $14,250 (x 6% sales tax brings me just over $15,100 total before the setting). Generally speaking, what do you think I could do for $14,250?

Also, regarding the diamond I put the $1,000 down payment on: On a scale of 0-100, 0 being a piece of dirt and 100 being the most brilliant diamond you've ever seen, what would you rate the stone I purchased based on the information I have provided?

Thanks again.
 
Have been following this thread with interest. It's a bit hard to really give an accurate score between 1-100 given that your wholesaler hasn't provided any pictures to you (and by extension to us) for you to look at (though you presumably have seen the stone IRL).

I'm not a big fan of the proportions here. The crown angle is far too steep for the steepness of the pavilion angle. The lower girdle percentage is also a tad high and given GIA graded it, it could be anywhere between 77.5-82.5% which will have a big impact on the contrast pattern produced by the pavilion mains when looking face up (ie skinny arrows or medium sized ones).
 
OP
People on this forum are giving you suggestions to cut and run from this so called "wholesaler",
You don't want to do that, you don't have to do that. But if you don't want to follow the suggestions of the PS member and work with a PS vendor who will provide excellent specs, pictures, etc, then you are wasting members time. Its your coin and decision. Best of luck.

ps. If you believe this person is a "wholesaler" to you, I have a bridge to sell you.
 
@WillyDiamond - I'm not disregarding the members' suggestions, at all. I'm trying to glean what helpful information I can about: (i) the lacking quality of the diamond I put $1k down on; and (ii) what I should be looking for in a subsequent diamond should I be able to get out of the original deal. For many of these members, diamond purchases might be a regular occurrence. For me, this is my first. I plugged the information into the HCA for the diamond @island21 shared and it was not "FAR higher quality." So I returned for more information from the community. And I'm not sure what to refer to this gentleman as... "Wholesaler" was the terminology that came to mind, given that he sells to most jewelers in my state, and had an inventory on hand of hundreds of diamonds. Sure, I'm familiar with bluenile, but I just felt more comfortable going to a guy in person. Call me old fashioned. I'm just trying to get information, not get lambasted for making a "grave mistake" on probably the most important purchase I've made thus far in my life.
 
Without pictures, the clarity plot alone on that stone would have me putting on the brakes. Makes me feel like clarity would look something like this:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...arat-h-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-872677
But hard to say without seeing pics or video....

SO to answer your question, what can you get for the money:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-h-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-2163069
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-h-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-2871984
If you'd drop to an I colored stone
NICE size but i would ask about the "clouds not shown" and if that is affecting anything.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-i-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-1006248
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...rat-i-color-vs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-3010137
http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/9063891/1-87-carat-round-diamond-i-color-vs1-clarity

Super Ideal stone (wire price is within budget)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802445.htm

There is nothing wrong with going to someone local! Though many here don't recommend it, it is possible to get a nice stone if you do your due diligence. My stone & setting is from someone local, my dh got a fair price on the stone and custom setting. is it a stone many here would like? NOPE. it's a shallow marquise with a large table but i love it. Anyway, you CAN weed through rounds by going off the numbers. if you want to use this local guy, make use of the parameters listed above and use the HCA to weed out poor performers. Anything under 2 is worth looking at further. the HCA isn't a selection tool, it's a tool to weed out stones that won't perform well based on parameters. (the stone you've put a deposit on scored a 4.9 on the HCA.) i wouldn't go with the BN stone due to the shallow crown but that's me.

We see a lot of people come through here posting stones that are recommended by a "family friend that is a jeweler" or a local B&M store that claims they must have this D colored IF stone with a crummy EGL cert and a huge price tag. We see lots of people that have been ripped off and people that are close to being ripped off. Why settle if you can do better?

It's like going to a used car lot..... you're looking for a Chevy truck, you have a specific budget in mind so the dealer says "oh, look! We have these 2 trucks in your price range. don't they both look great?!" But in reality, one of them has been wrecked and the frame is still slightly bent, you can tell that the tracking is off. Looking at it, the paint job is dinged up on it a bit and there are some aftermarket parts used to repair it after the accident. but hey, every single extra is in it. the other one is right around the same price, never been wrecked, great paint job, this thing SPARKLES and the interior is in great shape! not ALL the bells and whistles but very close. which one do you choose? the one that is bent up, not quite right or the one in excellent shape?
 
Lets take a step back.. I am somewhat new to the game as well. I think my distaste comes from vendors trying to rip off the general public. I also was in a similar situation where i wanted the best for my fiancee and went to a recommended vendor in the DC area and the diamond district in NYC. Will leave out the vendors name, but they were all highly rated on Yelp. I nearly put a deposit down before I discovered PS. It took me nearly 3 months to educate myself, but realized that I was incredibly happy when I received the product from WF.

So lets go back to your diamond you put a deposit down for. Like others have said, we can only go on the information you provided. The bluenile diamond i referenced is a better diamond, if we compare the cut only. The other C's are basically exactly the same. That is being offered for 11ish and you paid 13ish. So at the very minimum, you overpaid by 2 thousand. Likely in the 3k region though. (This is before taxes, etc.) That is NOT saying what you purchased is junk. Its just worth less than what you paid for it. I would consider the 1000 bucks just a sunk cost.

As for a loose diamond for 14,250, and 1.7-1.8, the only eye-clean diamond i could find is this one https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802445.htm. But you have a great community here that would love to check other vendors to that will fit your parameters.
 
@farrahlyn - This was such a helpful message - thank you, truly. I should definitely start by saying that the plot makes it look like it would appear that way, but I assure you the inclusions were very difficult to find (and impossible without magnification). However, the 4.9 HCA score definitely suggests this should've been an instant reject. Very fortunately, the guy I went through was more than happy to "release" me from that stone, and I'm going to visit him again later this week, armed with all of this information and the help from this website/forum.

Thank you so much for also providing me with stones within my budget. That was super helpful, and tells me that I can do about 1.70 carats - not 1.80 (I was fooling myself and sacrificing way too much in brilliance to go "bigger" - though the depth % really meant it wasn't much if at all bigger anyway - I get that).

Really pleased by your response and will be returning to this thread with an update on stones (or the stone I change to) as soon as I re-visit this guy. I did look up the GIA # on Google and it actually came up on adiamor.com for $13,761 ($13,555 bank wire price), so doesn't that mean this guy does sell to a large network of retailers, making him a wholesaler? @island21 I'm really not convinced I overpaid by $2k, but again I suppose I don't have the diamond (or a magnified pic of it) to show you characteristics that might have made the price I was charged more reasonable. Nevertheless, I appreciate your message also and found the information helpful as well.

I'll be utilizing the HCA tool when I go back to help weed out diamonds, and will return with additional information ASAP :)
 
MKJ said:
Thanks for all the feedback...

Could someone please answer the question I've posed a couple of times above: So, let's say my budget is $14,250 (x 6% sales tax brings me just over $15,100 total before the setting). Generally speaking, what do you think I could do for $14,250?

Also, regarding the diamond I put the $1,000 down payment on: On a scale of 0-100, 0 being a piece of dirt and 100 being the most brilliant diamond you've ever seen, what would you rate the stone I purchased based on the information I have provided?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

No, the fact that the diamond is on Adiamor only means they and your guy are getting the diamond from the same place. Diamonds are at one place and various vendors can pull them to show clients.

I sincerely doubt he is a "wholesaler". Have you googled his name, etc?

To answer your question, it depends on what you want to do with $14,250

For instance, Wink at High Performance Diamonds sells crafted by infinity diamonds, which are super ideal diamonds. You don't have to run them through HCA because they are perfectly cut.

Because they are perfectly cut, body color will be disguised better. You can get a 2.02 K color VS2 (face up white) for $14,372 wire price http://highperformancediamonds.com/shop/id_k_faint/HPD8962/?shop=yes
 
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